considering wood heat need some direction

[georgeC]

Hello forum, name is George and I am planning a new house build for which I have considered wood fuel since I have a lifetime supply on the property.

I got stuck in shopping stage, sticker shock I guess, granted it has been a decade or so since I last purchased a natural gas furnace but it cost $350, an average department store inefficient woodstove is twice that and a well worn one goes for about the same used.

Regardless a boiler system was more my interest, I hate the dry forced air heat, thought radiant of some sort may be better, also I hear those boilers also provide domestic hot water, but models I looked at are repulsively starting at $7k, indoor or out, furthermore like a cheap bastard I look on CL and what do you know I come across a 9 yr old model that leaks, now that's about $800 a year, I don't spend much more on my gas bill at the moment that is for cooking too, granted small house and the new one should be better insulated.

Now as I mentioned I have plenty of firewood but I still have to cut it, split it clean up the twigs, so what is wrong with this picture, am I looking at the wrong model? were only speaking boiler so far, storage tank and other knickknacks adds up to what my gas bill would otherwise be over the next 10 years.

now granted a wood boiler construction is not the same as a forced air natural gas furnace but in the end it is just steel and brick , not even talking stainless gold or platinum.

so there's my dilemma, I want to be environmentally responsible, but it seems the manufacturers and or distributors are a bit too greedy, now I saw some OWB for $3500 but they are old school barrel smokehouse, again I don't see that much steel into them I could easily fab something for a fraction but they defy the point , the idea was to have something that is clean and efficient.

so maybe you all can point me in the right direction, I was looking into a gasser system with a storage tank appears to be the way to go, indoor ( basement ), a system that can do both heat and hot water, but so far that already puts me over $10k, I'm not even getting into plumbing and radiators over air ducts and whatever other devices involved not entirely familiar with these systems,

I'd love some input from people that know more than I, as it sits at this point looks like the only feasible way to go about it is fab something either from scratch or start with something to mod, I am looking for specific makes and models recommendations and costs

 

[maple1]

How big will the house be? What will be the heat load? How open a floor plan? Would you have any use for air conditioning? Would you be heating anything else?

Lots to consider when choosing a heat source - purchase price alone likely shouldn't be the first consideration in a new home construction situation.

 

[GENECOP]

If going new I would go either Garn or Swizer.......Orrrrr.....some kind of Gasifier, Econoburn, Etc......with storage.....

 

[maple1]

If I was building new again, I think I would be aiming to use a combination of HPWH, mini-split heat pumps, and a nice wood stove. With the hope of seldom having to use the wood stove.

Maybe.

 

[georgeC]

How big will the house be? What will be the heat load? How open a floor plan? Would you have any use for air conditioning? Would you be heating anything else?

Lots to consider when choosing a heat source - purchase price alone likely shouldn't be the first consideration in a new home construction situation.

that is probably my challenge, I see most of these units are for 5000 sqft applications, I am looking at 1000 sqft well insulated structure needless to say open floor plan is out of the question Unless I make it all a studio, I haven't yet decided on a particular type of construction but for the sake of conversation my current house is similar in size cinderblock construction with almost no insulation (thin reflective foil and drywall ) my furnace is 80k btu, did ok for the past decade, my gas bill may reach $200 in January, about a grand a year, I am shooting for R 30 ish in the new house, hoping to get away with a 40k btu heater, that's the ballpark I have been looking into, I am not planning on air conditioning but rather a passive solar design, in my area is cool enough if a house is properly designed that is, long term solar collectors would supplement heat also provide most hot water during the summer, as I said I haven't yet decided on a building type weather super insulate or incorporate mass still deciding on that and its off topic, so specific numbers I can not give you but I am being generous with a 40k estimate based on my current experience in a lesser building,

I do disagree with your comment on purchase price, have you looked at photovoltaic prices lately? I can get a lot of them for 7k, apples to oranges, but initial cost maters especially since in my instance a preliminary search shows that the initial investment will recoup in 10 years considering the wood is free and I enjoy splitting it for recreation, just my point of view, time by which I need a new one.

as you can see by now I am looking at a clean efficient build so a cheap OWB that is 20% efficient and smokes like a nuclear plant is out of the question, even if I was getting paid to use it, so I am leaning towards the gassers, as I am typing it dawns on me a boiler may be overkill maybe a gasifier stove something with a secondary burn and an electric water heater is a better choice

I did like the idea of having a boiler and storage tanks but not into it if it doesn't make sense.

hope this gives you an Idea of what I am looking for, I am hoping there are products that I can use just have not found them

 

[georgeC]

If going new I would go either Garn or Swizer.......Orrrrr.....some kind of Gasifier, Econoburn, Etc......with storage.....

I think I came across econoburn, haven't heard of the others I'll google them real quick, I assume Garn or Swizer are not gasifier type I find product description online is very vague, they all claim they are efficient

 

[georgeC]

ok I did look at econoburn, briefly I thought being us made and relatively in my neck of the woods might be affordable but starting at 8k just for the boiler? that is the part I find Repulsive its not made of precious metal and gems, but rather steel and clay, regardless at this price range and my current natural gas consumption it will take 10 years of chopping free wood for free to break even, I do believe they warranty them for 20 years but if you had to pay for the wood it would never recoup, not for my consumption,

 

[georgeC]

If I was building new again, I think I would be aiming to use a combination of HPWH, mini-split heat pumps, and a nice wood stove. With the hope of seldom having to use the wood stove.

Maybe.

I have no idea what hpwh is, heat pump water heater I assume, minisplits are similar I believe, haven't looked into it, heard about them thou, bet they are not cheap also, I worked as a heating and cooling teck for 8 years, and I am personally not in favor of anything with a compressor and Freon, I have my reasons and they are not as efficient as they claim, running that wattage through an electric baseboard heater will get you similar results I think ( speculate )

 

[maple1]

I have no idea what hpwh is, heat pump water heater I assume, minisplits are similar I believe, haven't looked into it, heard about them thou, bet they are not cheap also, I worked as a heating and cooling teck for 8 years, and I am personally not in favor of anything with a compressor and Freon, I have my reasons and they are not as efficient as they claim, running that wattage through an electric baseboard heater will get you similar results I think ( speculate )

Yes, heat pump water heater.

My main point was that there are so many opportunities when building new these days to build so that not much heat is required in the first place - that boilers of any kind are kind of getting to be on the outside of best choices in a lot of cases. Around here, mini-splits are getting to be the go-to for new construction.

 

[Buzz Saw]

Ever priced out the materials to properly build a gasser boiler? A guy on her recently built his own and he had over $2k in steel for the boiler. He had no idea how many hours he put into it. When you start considering R&D, labor,material, overhead,profit, insurance,etc $5k is going to be the bottom end(price not quality) for a product that weighs in at 2000lbs.

 

[Buzz Saw]

If your house is super tight you might not have to fire daily with a boiler and storage. How does one fire every other day sound for most days? Not much time required for cutting and splitting if you are super insulated.

 

[redmaple172]

You said gas, if natural gas I'd just go with high efficiency gas boiler with radiant floor or euro style radiators and good insulation/windows. I just did oil to gas boiler job. - highest efficiency, cost about $6,000 in parts. You could sell your firewood! If propane, (I paid $4.20/ gal last winter) go with gasification boiler - build utility room in house with outside door. I have outside gasifier (couldn't put one inside) and it's great - will pay for itself ($8,000) in two years.

 

[georgeC]

Ever priced out the materials to properly build a gasser boiler? A guy on her recently built his own and he had over $2k in steel for the boiler. He had no idea how many hours he put into it. When you start considering R&D, labor,material, overhead,profit, insurance,etc $5k is going to be the bottom end(price not quality) for a product that weighs in at 2000lbs.

I think I saw that post, I also saw a picture of the guy inside the fire box, and looked like he had room for a couple buddies to fit beside him, that thing was a monster not sure what he was heating with it. looked like a big job, compared to the Econoburn 100 it was much larger , a few times over, for maybe half the material cost plus labor, truth be told from my perspective it appears that even at cost a boiler similar to the econoburn 100 doesn't quite add up it seems as suggested I am better off selling the firewood and pay the gas bill instead.

also as mentioned I am looking into building relatively small, tight and well insulated, I initially debated a masonary heater, than it dawned on me water makes good thermal mass and this could take care of a couple things like hot water and would integrate with solar collectors, I may just have to build a small unit, apparently there aren't any available, compared to the $2k worth of steel, I am looking at a fraction, just wished there was something available that I could use, got so many other things to do and problem with a home made one might have some trouble getting it by the inspector.

propane was bad last year, I used to get it for 2.50 then it went to hell, I have natural gas available on the property, honestly I was hoping to avoid it and be relatively self sufficient, off grid, thou a good point was brought up an $8k boiler, while over rated with proper storage a fire every couple day may do, rather than as I read on another post 2.5 fillups a day, and at that rate the 10 year life expectancy is more like 50, interesting, anyway I am still looking for a smaller ready made relatively efficient unit if there are such out there available that you all are aware of please point them out

 

[georgeC]

one thing I was considering was to scavenge a old natural gas unit for parts, I saw them cheap used and I read some have cast iron heat exchangers, my experience with these is limited, I worked on a couple large indoor pool ones briefly I seem to remember copper tubing with aluminum fins for heat exchanger just the manifolds were cast, wood boiler builds I saw and cut always show totally different design wonder if this has been attempted a retrofit of sorts

 

[georgeC]

If going new I would go either Garn or Swizer.......Orrrrr.....some kind of Gasifier, Econoburn, Etc......with storage.....

just got a look at garn and swizer, they look like a boiler and storage tank in one to me those things are huge

(broken link removed to http://www.wallnoefer.it/en/products/walltherm/water-models/zebru.html) this is what drew me into it at 15kw roughly 50k btu would be perfect, pushing 7k in cost but I get it its made in Italy I had things shipped from before and it is outrageously expensive bet the cost at the factory is half

 

[georgeC]

well so far I found this (broken link removed to http://www.newhorizonstore.com/Products/88-eko-gasification-boiler.aspx) there is another model on the site at 40 kw bit more in price but a bit more realistic than an econoburn pricewise, any experience with it?
or this (broken link removed to http://www.newhorizonstore.com/Products/90-attack-dp-boiler.aspx)

what about this site (broken link removed to http://www.woodboilersdirect.com/) hard to tell what I am looking at but there is a SAS coal burner 9 kw for $1500 cant tell what type it is other google searches listed it as a wood burner, small 440 lbs, roughly 31k btu, small but considering the build earlier mentioned might just do or a slightly larger model, definitely not enough info,

 

[davem3261]

I picked up a used biomass 40 on Craigslist for 3k. But for the size house you are building spend your boiler $$$ on spray foam insulation and build a tight house. It won't cost very much to heat it.

 

[georgeC]

I picked up a used biomass 40 on Craigslist for 3k. But for the size house you are building spend your boiler $$$ on spray foam insulation and build a tight house. It won't cost very much to heat it.

it certainly looks like that would be the way to go, I still need some heat a boiler would be nice just doesn't add up it seems, maybe a plain secondary burn stove and electric water heater is a better choice

 

[heaterman]

it certainly looks like that would be the way to go, I still need some heat a boiler would be nice just doesn't add up it seems, maybe a plain secondary burn stove and electric water heater is a better choice

George for a structure the size you are talking about a wood boiler of any kind would be a poor investment. $5-6,000 is the starting point for anything decent. Then you have to add controls, thermal storage, the cost of a chimney, integrating it into your heating system and a host of other things. You are looking at $10K minimum if you are a shopper along the same caliber as my wife and can do all the labor yourself.

If your house is an open floor plan you will be able to heat it with a small wood stove. Insulate it and seal it well and the btu/sq. ft. load will most likely be under 20 in the worst conditions. This is not wood boiler territory unless you can incorporate at least 500 gallons of thermal storage into the system. A modulating pellet boiler.....that may be a possibility but you are still looking at the same or more $$ for a decent one.

Not a huge fan of heat pumps here either. We found that a lot of the newer ones supposedly capable of providing heat even at low teens to single digit outdoor temps fell flat on their faces last winter. They are rated with very high COP numbers but those ratings can be a little misleading as they are generated at "standard" conditions. when you go below those the performance drops off rapidly. Not a fan of forced air heating either for many reasons.

Are you going to be heating with natural or LP gas? If natural, there is not way I would contemplate anything along the lines of a wood or even pellet boiler. The ROI will be waaaaay down the road. 15 years plus if you include the time value of money in the equation. A good share of the units on the market today, especially those at the lower price level of the spectrum will be used up or nearly so by that point. In other words you break even.

 

[cookiemonster]

Hello forum, name is George and I am planning a new house build for which I have considered wood fuel since I have a lifetime supply on the property.

I got stuck in shopping stage, sticker shock I guess, granted it has been a decade or so since I last purchased a natural gas furnace but it cost $350, an average department store inefficient woodstove is twice that and a well worn one goes for about the same used.

Regardless a boiler system was more my interest, I hate the dry forced air heat, thought radiant of some sort may be better, also I hear those boilers also provide domestic hot water, but models I looked at are repulsively starting at $7k, indoor or out, furthermore like a cheap bastard I look on CL and what do you know I come across a 9 yr old model that leaks, now that's about $800 a year, I don't spend much more on my gas bill at the moment that is for cooking too, granted small house and the new one should be better insulated.

Now as I mentioned I have plenty of firewood but I still have to cut it, split it clean up the twigs, so what is wrong with this picture, am I looking at the wrong model? were only speaking boiler so far, storage tank and other knickknacks adds up to what my gas bill would otherwise be over the next 10 years.

now granted a wood boiler construction is not the same as a forced air natural gas furnace but in the end it is just steel and brick , not even talking stainless gold or platinum.

so there's my dilemma, I want to be environmentally responsible, but it seems the manufacturers and or distributors are a bit too greedy, now I saw some OWB for $3500 but they are old school barrel smokehouse, again I don't see that much steel into them I could easily fab something for a fraction but they defy the point , the idea was to have something that is clean and efficient.

so maybe you all can point me in the right direction, I was looking into a gasser system with a storage tank appears to be the way to go, indoor ( basement ), a system that can do both heat and hot water, but so far that already puts me over $10k, I'm not even getting into plumbing and radiators over air ducts and whatever other devices involved not entirely familiar with these systems,

I'd love some input from people that know more than I, as it sits at this point looks like the only feasible way to go about it is fab something either from scratch or start with something to mod, I am looking for specific makes and models recommendations and costs

Hey Georgec. I'm reading all this talk of high tech gassers and heat storage which is great if you have the money to spend. I agree that being environment friendly is nice, butttttttt, have you ever looked into indoor coal boilers. I have been running a Harman SF-360 for 4 years now with stove coal (premium anthracite of course ! ) I have a 2500 ish sq ft home in upstate NY. I love it. It's simple. I get very long hot burn cycles. If you are talking about a 1000 sq ft home you would only need a SF-160. My basement is at least 80 degrees all winter long. My floor between the basement and ground level is not insulated so in addition to the nice hot water from the boiler as it is burning I benefit from the radiant heat this thing throws off. It's very nice. Right now it's 12 degrees at my house and my interior temp is holding at about 70 degrees. And this is achieved with using only half of the firebox. I would use the whole box if burning wood but coal is a different story. Downstairs floor is nice and warm..... If you want to call me let me know. I'll e mail you my number. And I haven't split and stacked wood in years!!