Creosote Problems - Englander 28-3500

[Butch211]

I recently installed a Englander 28-3500 wood stove - add on furnace the middle of December. This is our first wood stove and we are obviously in the learning phase.

The 28-3500 is installed in the basement of our three story home. (approximately 3400q ft including the basement)

A 24in single wall pipe comes from the stove, attaches to a 90° adjustable elbow - then another section of 24in single wall pipe and another 90° adjustable elbow - then runs to a Duravent prefab T (through-the-wall kit) - then up to a triple wall pre-fab stainless chimney outside. (consisting of nine 3foot sections)

We keep about a week’s worth of wood in the basement.

First round of wood was dry, seasoned and burned pretty well.

Second round of wood came from a friend of a friend. Some of the wood was dirty (had dried mud on the outside) and upon burning it we quickly learned it was not burning the same as the first round. When tested with a moisture meter, a majority of the wood read 20%. Pure novice move - we continued to burn through the pile.

The third batch of wood came from the same place - same conditions.

In hindsight, the wood was wet so it was impossible to get a hot fire and clean burn. Even with smaller loads of wood, we could not get the pipe temp over 300°, with the ash door open. Once the ash door was shut, the pipe temp would slowly drop to 175° - 200° and linger there - with both the upper damper control bar and lower air control dial both wide open.
(thermometer on stove pipe 18 inches from stove top)

I started doing some searching, landed on this forum and have read a lot of valuable information regarding the importance of dry wood and how detrimental it is for a clean burn.

With the recent snow storm we were left to burn through the wood we had on hand. All of the sudden yesterday, we could not get a fire going without smoke billowing out the door - so bad we could not even crack the ash door to get a fire started. The wood would just char.

I let the stove cool down, removed everything from inside the stove, clean out the ash pan and took apart the stove pipe inside the house.

The photos below are the creosote build up found inside. The first three sections of pipe coming off the stove are black, crusty and tar-like. The last section - going through the wall - has a different flaky build up.

Due to the snow I have not yet been able to take a look down the external chimney itself.

Is it possible to sufficiently clean the pipes myself or should I call someone at this point? As I mentioned above - we have only been using the stove for a little over a month and it was purchased, brand new.

I know the combination of bad wood, user error, and lack of knowledge has brought us to this point. Any suggestions as to where to go from here would be greatly appreciated.

 

[zig]

Split a piece in half and check the fresh split part. I would guess by the pictures it's more than 20%. Mix some 2x4 or other dry wood with it to help it along. The 90's are killing you too but maybe there's nothing to be done about it. If you put the chimney in, clean it yourself. It's good to know how it works and what to look for. If you don't trust your skill level, call a sweep but watch them so you have an idea what to do and look out for. Ask questions and explain why your asking. If their pros, they will help you along.

 

[Cynnergy]

Yep, that is a gunky chimney. And probably worse the further up you go - the flue gases cool down and condense more on the pipe further up. It sounds like you might have a complete blockage somewhere with the smoke billowing out of the door.

If it were me, I would try cleaning it myself, and then buy some compressed wood bricks or pallet wood to see if you can get it burning cleanly. Do not use the ash door to get the stove started - this can warp your stove. Do you have CO detectors just in case it gets blocked again?

 

[Butch211]

Thanks for the quick response Zig and Cynnergy.

I have read a bit about the different forms/stages of creosote. The big concern I have with cleaning the pipes myself is being able to remove the glaze creosote.

I did pick up a set of new single wall pipes to replace all of the inside piping from the stove up to the T today. Those are the all of the pieces in the photos that contained the most black gunk.

Depending on the weather - I am aiming to check the outside chimney tomorrow to see what resides in the stainless.

The 90's are killing you too but maybe there's nothing to be done about it.

The two 90° elbows are adjustable and not direct 90's. Would that make a difference? I didn't think to snap a photo of the set up prior to taking the pipes apart.

The pipes coming from right from the stove have the darkest creosote in them. The pipe closest to the T is more grey and flaky. Could it be a possibility that the inside single wall pipes are pulling cold air in from the basement - creating a leak somewhere? I know the bad wood/ operator error is the main culprit here - but could that add to the problem?

Do not use the ash door to get the stove started - this can warp your stove.

Is there anything specific I should look for at this point as far as damage?

Do you have CO detectors just in case it gets blocked again?

We have combination CO/Smoke Alarms in the basement that are hard wired to the first and second floors - along with additional plug in carbon monoxide alarms upstairs.

Split a piece in half and check the fresh split part.

I forgot to pick up a new set of batteries for the moisture meter today - but will definitely try this and see.

Thanks again - any information and suggestions for this newbie are greatly appreciated.

 

[blades]

as long as you are pulling it apart you could maybe try to clean from the bottom up. if you have a screen at the very top of your flue it is very likely that it is totally plugged up , happens all the time particularly with not so hot fuel.

 

[zig]

Just dawned on me it's in basement, please make sure you have enough makeup air to feed everything down there. Could be part of the slow burn problem with the stove competing for air with water heater, furnace or others. try cracking a window open down there and see if it helps.

If you have glazed creo I would get a sweep to clean it and again ask questions. That stuff can be a bear to get off if your not set up for it, brushes and such. Every chimney is unique and stoves differ on how they like to run so there's a learning curve for everyone. Good luck to you.

 

[maple1]

That's a tall chimney, should be capable of pulling some good draft. If there is a way for cold basement air to get into the bottom of the chimney somewhere, that would make more creosote. So make sure the pipe & chimney are tight between the furnace & the top - loose or poor T caps on the bottom of a chimney cleanout can cause huge creosote issues. But there might not be any way to avoid the creooste with wet wood.

You definitely want to get your chimney checked & clean. If you're not comfy, call a sweep, and see how he does it the first time. Since this is the first time, I would want to get up top & check things from the top down. Your being able to do that or not might come down to how treacherous it is to get up & down. Sweeping a chimney isn't complicated, but it can be very tricky & dangerous with a tall chimney & slippery roof. My sweeping days were over when the new steel roof went on - followed closely by a new boiler that doesn't make creosote.

 

[cachunko]

Just dawned on me it's in basement, please make sure you have enough makeup air to feed everything down there. Could be part of the slow burn problem with the stove competing for air with water heater, furnace or others. try cracking a window open down there and see if it helps.

If you have glazed creo I would get a sweep to clean it and again ask questions. That stuff can be a bear to get off if your not set up for it, brushes and such. Every chimney is unique and stoves differ on how they like to run so there's a learning curve for everyone. Good luck to you.

This guy is EXACTLY right. I have a different furnace than you, but had exactly the same problem. I put in a brand new Yukon Eagle Polar furnace. I didn't put in a fresh air intake because, well, I was smarter than the manufacturer lol. I thought since I had an old drafty house, that would be plenty of replacement air. I'm telling you what, I was 150% wrong. The replacement air made all of the difference for me. Basically what was happening, is the fire takes a ton of oxygen for a complete burn, and was depleting the basement of O2. I put in 2 4" PVC pipes with a J shape at the bottom. It took care of 90% of my problem. I still get creosote, but not near as much as before, and it's the dry flaky stuff now. Before, it was like liquid tar. It would drip down my barometric damper and stop my little flapper from moving on a daily basis. Before I tried anything else, I'd get replacement air in there. Sure, you need dry wood too, but oxygen is an absolute must. It's just like with a propane or nat gas furnace, there is a fresh air intake for those. You need one more so for your wood.

 

[maple1]

But the first load of wood burned fine - so I don't think there's a makeup air problem.

Would be easy to check though by cracking a basement window open & seeing if that changed anything.

 

[cachunko]

Let us know how you make out. I'd like to know what works for you. Everyone's problems can surely be different. I also had problems with the low flue temps before I added replacement air as well. But if you wood is really wet, that could easily be your culprit.

 

[Fred61]

Is all 27 feet of outside chimney insulated?

 

[lexybird]

Too many 90's . Did you measure your draft ? Creosote loves to collect around those turns . Burn only dry seasoned wood no half seasoned junk

 

[zig]

This guy is EXACTLY right. I have a different furnace than you, but had exactly the same problem. I put in a brand new Yukon Eagle Polar furnace. I didn't put in a fresh air intake because, well, I was smarter than the manufacturer lol. I thought since I had an old drafty house, that would be plenty of replacement air. I'm telling you what, I was 150% wrong. The replacement air made all of the difference for me. Basically what was happening, is the fire takes a ton of oxygen for a complete burn, and was depleting the basement of O2. I put in 2 4" PVC pipes with a J shape at the bottom. It took care of 90% of my problem. I still get creosote, but not near as much as before, and it's the dry flaky stuff now. Before, it was like liquid tar. It would drip down my barometric damper and stop my little flapper from moving on a daily basis. Before I tried anything else, I'd get replacement air in there. Sure, you need dry wood too, but oxygen is an absolute must. It's just like with a propane or nat gas furnace, there is a fresh air intake for those. You need one more so for your wood.

The reason I brought it up: i work as a bldg. maintenance tech for the county. Last week ,2am. get a call from the jail, they smell something hot and maybe gas near the boiler room. There's a 150 gal. water heater and the tank is cold. I drain some off to fire the heater and no ignition, just gas smell. The feed tube for the pilot has 2 inches if the middle MELTED out. Air intake for the room is in a window well outside with a screen over it, completely covered with leaves and walmart bags. With the air handler, boilers and compressor making negative airflow, the water heater's flame went DOWN not up and melted the aluminum tube.