cruising speed of a vigilant?

[vasten]

I have an old school vigilant, and it serves me well until it gets below 20 degrees then it becomes something to offset my furnace, 20-30 degrees works great at keeping the whole house comfortable, 30-40+ degrees almost too much stove, at that outside temp it can get the room the stove is in up to the mid 80's.

So now I am thinking it has more to do with the house than the stove at those temps, insulation, air leaks etc.

But what I am curious about and cant find a post on it out here is when its in horizontal burn what are people seeing with avg flue temps. When I kick mine into horizontal you hear that great sound of the secondary kicking in, then my flue temps drop as expected. But they tend to always settle out at 200-300 degrees, which is fine when its above 25 outside, but when it gets colder than that outside I almost always have to run it in vertical mode.

I don't use griddle temps anymore just flue temps, because I want to make sure I am keeping the flue over 250 as often as I can (not to mention that stove will bury a griddle thermometer at 900 deg with out hesitating and will throw the calibration of it off to the point that when the stove is out it will still read 1-200). I don't kick the horizontal or afterburners in, until I am at 3-400 and sometimes higher on the flue temps to make sure my chimney is warm all the way to the top. Also I should mention that if it has run in horizontal for a long time over night when I am at work etc. I make it a habit to run it in vertical for about 30 mins and get the flue as hot as i can for as long as I can in that 30 mins to dry out any creosote that may have formed from running in horizontal.

When it is in horizontal I have the secondary air port open all the way and the thermostatic damper open all the way too, if I don't do this and leave the thermo one at half way then the temps tend to drop below 200 which is very bad.

I have tried propping the thermo damper open to see if that creates higher flue temps but nothing it always maintains a range of 2-300 so I assume that is where the stove is happy and wants to be lol

But I am curious to hear what others are seeing for flue temps on their VC stoves

thanks

 

[claydogg84]

There are very few, if any members on this forum still running that stove. I will say that continuously hitting 900 on the griddle is going to eventually have a negative effect on the stove. I operated my Defiant strictly on the griddle temp.

 

[DougA]

Flue temps are tough to respond to without more detail. With that low a temperature I wonder if you have a magnetic thermometer on a double wall pipe. I used a digital flue probe that is 18" above the stove connection. Too close and you will get much higher readings.
I had a Resolute for 30 years which is the same thing but smaller. I normally ran it in the 500 to 600 range on the stove top, but behind the griddle. The flue temps were always fairly similar but never lower. If your stove top is at 600, that is about all that stove is capable of heating.
I would suggest that you buy a$20. IR gun and take your stove top readings with that. With your stove top over 600, you should not be able to stand directly in front of your stove, it would be too hot.

 

[vasten]

To clarify I don't hit 900 often I just know that if I leave it unattended with the right scenario, it can bury a stove top thermo with little effort with this stove...

The stove also made a liar out of me today, in that I used my fire poker to prop the draft door open and the flue temps in horizontal actually got up to about 350, and what a difference in heat output it was night and day compared to 350 flue in vertical burn.



Anyone know how to tell if the chain is calibrated correctly?

DougA: it is a magnetic thermo on single wall stove pipe 18" up from the griddle. ( and trust me 7-800 on griddle temps is nothing for that stove to achieve on good wood and running wide open and nope you dont even want to go near it to shut it down when it climbs that high)

 

[claydogg84]

To clarify I don't hit 900 often I just know that if I leave it unattended with the right scenario, it can bury a stove top thermo with little effort with this stove...

The stove also made a liar out of me today, in that I used my fire poker to prop the draft door open and the flue temps in horizontal actually got up to about 350, and what a difference in heat output it was night and day compared to 350 flue in vertical burn.



Anyone know how to tell if the chain is calibrated correctly?

DougA: it is a magnetic thermo on single wall stove pipe 18" up from the griddle. ( and trust me 7-800 on griddle temps is nothing for that stove to achieve on good wood and running wide open and nope you dont even want to go near it to shut it down when it climbs that high)

You keep speaking of these 800+ griddle temps like they are no big deal. That's a mistake. The chain can be adjusted based on your desired heat output. When the stove is running at what you consider your ideal temp, the flap should be nearly shut.

 

[vasten]

My goal is NOT to run the stove at 7-900 degrees.... It is to get the stove to idle at around 3-350 on the flue when it is in horizontal vs vertical ..... all I was saying is I know that it has the potential to get that hot, if left unattended in vertical burn with a full load of good dry wood and the damper wide open.

Right now it is in horizontal with about 3-4 pieces of wood in it about 1/3 full and has a flue temp of 250. with the thermo damper auto adjusted to about 1/2 inch open. with the thermo damper set to wide open.

Is it normal that in horizontal the flue temps arent supposed to exceed 250 degrees?

 

[claydogg84]

These stoves are called smoke dragons for a reason. While they were innovative for their time, they are certainly not clean burners. I think you should focus on stove top temps and go from there. You should be able to a solid horizontal burn that produces little or no smoke. The Defiant ran well in horizontal mode when shut at 600 griddle temp.

 

[vasten]

ok so to test it I reloaded the stove and propped the flapper open, in horizontal mode. the flue is reading 350, so I moved it to the stove top, all the way back on the griddle until it touched the collar... and it read 650.

is there a way to adjust the thermo damper to be able to reach a 650 griddle temp with out propping it open (like I can in vertical mode) or is it set to drop to 250-300 on purpose?

 

[DougA]

"When it is in horizontal I have the secondary air port open all the way and the thermostatic damper open all the way too, if I don't do this and leave the thermo one at half way then the temps tend to drop below 200 which is very bad. "

I'm getting lost with all of your text, so let's go back to the quote from your first post. When you are running dry wood after the initial burn phase with your primary air control open (you call this vertical), that control should be closed (horizontal) fully once the fire is burning well. Make sure this handle is pushed all the way down and clicks. Some models it was 90%closed but it would pop open on its own.

Now the secondary air control (at the back with the flapper and a chain) should be set to be partially open and it should close all the way as the stove heats up. If the control has to stay fully open for the stove to achieve a temperature of 400 or more on the stove top, YOU HAVE WET WOOD.

Forget flue temps for now and solve the real problem first. Flue temps are just confusing you and everyone else. Let's deal with that later. The small circular air hole on the side can be fully or half open, it's not as important at this stage. I always had mine half closed and it made little difference.

If your stove cannot get to those temperatures on the stove top with the primary and secondary closed, you don't have dry wood and that is your problem. Do you have a moisture meter? You need to spend $20 and get one. The wood needs to be 20% maximum, lower than that is ideal.

The reason you need to prop open the secondary control to keep the temps up is that your fire needs more air to keep burning and it won't if the wood is dry.

The only other possibility is that your gaskets are shot and too much air is leaking into the stove and causing the stove to run cool but the flue to run hot. How long has it been since they were replaced?

Solving these kinds of problems takes time and a bit of tenacity. Always start problem solving with the wood. It's the most likely culprit.

 

[vasten]

thanks you. I did some testing with the stove today detailed that below hope this helps clarify things.

The wood is from trees that were tops logged 2-3 years ago we blocked them split and put them in a wood shed this spring... A lot of the wood is ash with some maple and cherry mixed in. No hissing or sizzling what so ever, the fires are very easy to light, I bring the wood in side 1-2 days before I will need to burn it to make sure that it warms and to get any additional moisture out.

No I do not have a moisture meter but I see HD has one for $20.00
http://www.homedepot.com/p/General-...ter-with-LED-Bar-Graph-Display-MM1E/100651810

this morning I dropped three small pieces in slightly larger than kindling and it took right off with in minutes the stove was up to 700 on the griddle in updraft mode...White damper handle in the horizontal position.

I moved the (the secondary air control (at the back with the flapper and a chain) ) to the right toward the chimney to the point at which it just closed all the way. the handle is straight up and down roughly centered between fully open and fully closed Which sounds like the correct way to set it. And the tear drop air inlet in the side is also completely closed

I left the stove for an hour, with just those three pieces in, It threw a lot of heat and slowly dropped as expected with that little of wood in it. once the stove top temp hit 400 and the secondary air has opened about 1/2 in. I started the next test.

I added three lager pieces and opened the secondary air control in the back to wide open and the wood took off instantly, you can hear it roaring in there. It took roughly 5 mins to get the stove top up from 400 to 600 degrees, at this point I flipped it to horizontal (white handle in the side pointing down, opended the tear drop all the way, and moved the secondary air damper to just to the point it closed, again the handle is centered 1/2 way between fully open and fully closed. As soon as I did this the secondary roar died right out.

I left the stove alone for 30 mins and the stove top dropped to 450 and there is a small amount of white smoke coming from the chimney and the secondary is flapper opened to just under 1/2 in.

I flipped the white handle on the side to put the stove in updraft mode and opened the secondary air damper to wide open...took 5-10 mins to get the stove top temp to 550 I then flipped the white handle down to put it in horizontal burn and left the secondary air damper wide open this time. After about 20 mins the secondary air damper has closed itself about half way, and the stove top is reading 650, perfect. There is no roar from the secondary, no visible smoke from the chimney.

Where I am confused is yesterday when it was 17 out I couldn't get the secondary to stay open to keep the stove warm enough, today it was 27 out and it appears to be working as intended.

I replaced all of the door gaskets last year, with the closest rope I could find locally I think it came out a 1/16 of an inch thicker than what was recommended. I pulled out the metal panels from the door and put fresh cement in them as well as reseated them at the same time. I did not do the griddle gasket because it appears to be a tight fit still passing the dollar bill test.

 

[DougA]

It appears that things are working correctly today. A few comments. I rarely changed the position of the air control (flapper at back). Set it to be fully closed when the stove is very hot and leave it there for now. I would also close the damper (handle on left side) a bit earlier than you are. Once the wood is burning well, maybe 15 min with good wood, it can be closed. You are just wasting heat and wood. Fill the stove full. I know you are just testing but the stove is designed to be filled, burned to the point of red coals, then filled full again. You will operate better and get more heat that way.

Open the small hole at least half way, maybe all the way. I would only close it if the stove is too hot and you need to lower the temps and the other controls have already been closed
If the stove operates well one day and poorly the next with all other things equal, that points to draft problems. Was one day windy and not the other? Did the wind direction change? Did the humidity change a lot? All of these will affect draft.
This is like diagnosing problems with most other things. Go slow from the beginning and eliminate possible problems one by one.
If it's a draft problem, it can usually be solved by adding another length of chimney. Tell us what your stove pipe and chimney lengths are are the height above the roof.

How well did you clean out the stove? There should be 5 or so small holes in the back of the inside of the firebox. These needed to be open. The secondary air chamber on the right side can get closed with ashes. Make sure that the bottom of these chambers is reasonably clear. They will be on the right side, bottom of the firebox.
Lastly, this is is great stove but old technology. Keep in mind that you will get less heat, more fiddling and more smoke than newer stoves. I sold my 30 year old VC for almost what I paid for it and that is typical. They were great stoves but not as good as the better ones made now.

 

[vasten]

Here is what happened yesterday, today I am doing a thorough cleaning of the stove and the chimney.:

Today was a rather interesting test... I had my first run a way burn in the two years of running it. I did the first test today I got the stove up to temp, and filled it up and flipped the handle putting it in horizontal mode, closed the secondary damper til it just closed and in thirty mins, the temp dropped to 300 on the stove top... I opened the secondary and it took right off again. with in 30 mins the secondary damper closed it self and the stove top dropped to 450, propped the rear damper open fire took right off again. with in 20 mins stove was back up to 650 and secondary was going strong
once the prop rod was removed the damper shut all the way….I let it go until the stove top read 400, and noticed secondary was still closed.

It is almost as if the thermo damper is slow to respond, to the cooling of the stove when it is in horizontal burn. As the stove cools it should be opening to allow more air in and instead it doesn’t, until the griddle is below 300 the it will just start to open. When I burn it in updraft mode, the secondary air control seems to work as expected.

I reloaded the stove and when the stove top was 500, I put in into horizontal as soon as I did i heard the fire take off…. Within 45 mins the fire was roaring too loudly I came back in and checked the stove and the stove top was reading 800. I immediately shut down the tear drop air inlet, and noticed the thermo damper was still open about ½" by itself…. I moved the handle towards the chimney to close it and to my surprise it didn’t close it but opened it more. I took the metal rod that I use to prop the flap open, and put it on the flapper to hold it closed. It took several minutes to get the stove to calm back down, the griddle was still reading 750 but it was calm no sounds of fire blazing in there.

During this time there was nothing glowing red, no visible smoke from the chimney or coming out of the stove. It appeared to just be a serious run a way burn. Hour later with stove all closed up stove top is still reading 750. Needless to say that surprised me, and I am planning on letting the stove cool completely and clean both the stove and the chimney after that.

In the two years of running it, I have always been able to control the burn in updraft mode. When I leave for work I would fill it to the brim and once the flue came up to temp usually around 350 I would close the secondary and leave for the day, I would come home to coals and load it again then do the same before going to bed.

In terms of cleaning the stove I scrap the ashes down to the ridges in the bottom every few days and use a pencil to clear out any ash that may have built up in the air holes in the back plate. At least once a month I let the stove cool over night then scrap it down to the ridges, then with a shop vac I slide it into the rear exhaust port on the bottom right hand side of the stove, and slide it all the way in until it stops and repeat that 2-3 times.
Then I vacuum the air holes out, then vacuum out the tear drop air inlet on the side of the stove. followed by vacuuming out the area between the main damper and the chimney collar.

Chimney is straight up inside the house about 15-18 ft, insulated metal pipe that I installed roughly 10 yrs ago. My draft is real good, when I clean and check it in the fall I tear a tissue in half length wise and IT wants to suck it out of your hand. Another guy came over and did the "match test" he held a lit match up to it and it blew the match out. He was impressed and said that is a really good draft, better than what he had.

 

[vasten]

ok so yesterday I cleaned the chimney not what I would consider a lot of creosote in there at all, with majority of it being at the top as expected.
while I was at it I took of the rear heat sheild and inspected every joint, and gasket, I noticed the griddle gasket, was flat in some areas and bulging in other areas so I replaced that.

When I was at my local VC dealer (who knew we had one lol), I told him what I was working on and why and he advised me to go over every seam and joint top to bottom front and back on the stove while I had it cooled and put a thin layer of cement on them paying special attention to the lip where the top meets the sides, I did that as well as on the collar where the stove pipe fits in.

I let the cement dry a couple of hours then did a small fire as recommended on the label.

Now I am noticing something I never noticed before, my fire wood is black. I check it every so often and I notice that before the wood would burn from the edges in like you would expect. Now I notice that when I load the stove and get it up to temp and check it, the wood looks charred all over. When I kick it down it sits in there and smolders/low flames vs raging fire, I don't hear roaring flames at all anymore (even when I flip it to horizontal mode not sure if that is good or not), and the stove seems to be responding better to the thermostat and for now appears running strong.

Not sure if sealing all the seams helped or if it was just doing the griddle gasket or a combination there of, but seems to have helped. I haven't done a full load yet think that will be in the morning when I can monitor it just to be safe.

 

[fbelec]

i don't know if i am reading this wrong but what i'm reading is doug you said the back air flap is the secondary air control. if you read the manual the back is the primary air control and the round tear drop is the secondary. the secondary round air control should be open at all times when in horizontal mode. when in updraft mode the tear drop air should be closed the primary air control which is the air on the back with the chain is what controls the temp of the stove. once the stove is built up 600 degrees or so then the tear drop air is open wide and the damper is to be set in horizontal mode. and yes the stove top temp will drop a bit for a while then come up. my stove runs at 600 to 650 in updraft with 3 year old oak. with the same wood switch to horizontal mode and the stove top drops to 450 then over a half hour to a hour it will come up to 500 to 550 and stay that way until wood is done. for better secondary fire put the wood in up against the right side and when you put the stove into horizontal mode the baffle will be hot and all smoke will have to travel thru the fire to go out of the stove. if there is no air for secondary fire (with the tear drop air closed) the smoke path which is longer thru the stove in horizontal mode will cool the smoke so much that you will run 200 degree smoke pipe. when my stove is in horizontal mode the temp on the chimney is about 300 to 375. this info is from the manual for the defiant and vigilant