Dangerous Stove to Flue Joint?

[Ocduff]

Moved into a house last year with a pro installed 2006 Quad Santa Fe insert. Pretty reputable company.

Please look at attached pics to see what my chimney sweep noted. The 4" exhaust pipe from stove enters a stainless 8" pipe from earlier woodstove (which is inside a masonry chimney). I believe 4" pipe terminates a few feet into larger stainless liner.

This connection he felt was unsafe. It was covered in foil tape, as is around the blower. He said there should be a transitional attachment for these two size pipes. Not just tape.

I'm sure correct fix is to install one 4" liner all the way up the chimney. I can't do that myself so if that's only option I'll have to pay the bill.

Tape apparently served fine for 12 years. I don't know of an RTV gasket sealant that can withstand 1200 degrees etc.

He said he can install a transitional junction between the two. Could cost several hundred.

Any advice here? Kind of at a crossroads with this pellet stove in general - it is nice, but expensive and time consuming. He said not to run it as is. Even if I tape it back up that is.

Thanks

 

[vinny11950]

That definitely is not up to code. It is not safe. Do not run it.

What stove brand/model do you have there? It looks like it is missing the exhaust piece on the blower that connects to the pipe adapter.

The stove needs an adapter from the stove exhaust blower, a clean out tee, to a pipe to another adapter/connector into the bigger chimney liner. If you trust the chimney guy, and they are licensed and insured, and they quote you a reasonable price, have them do it, but have it inspected. If they mess it up, the inspector will see it and hold them accountable.

Or get to researching and do it yourself.

You want something like in this thread

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/how-should-i-vent-my-new-pellet-stove.54977/

Also look at the Duravent website

(broken link removed to http://www.duravent.com/Product.aspx?hProduct=9)

This pdf gives you a good rundown on the different install types

(broken link removed to https://www.duravent.com/docs/product/L550_820003167_Install%20Instructions_PelletVent%20Pro.pdf)

A few more pictures of the of the stove setup will help see what is going on.

Does the liner go all the way to the top?

 

[Ocduff]

Vinny - thank you for your reply and sharing your thoughts and info.

The pellet stove is a Quadra Fire Santa Fe INSERT from 2006.

There is no T cleanout like on my woodstove.

The liner does not go all the way to the top. At least that's what chimney sweep said.

Who is the inspector for these things making sure they are to code? I'm in Vermont.

The Dura Vent looks nice. Any idea what that system would run professionally installed?

Note - there is already a stainless woodstove liner installed in this chimney. Pellet liner continues a few feet up I suppose.

Is original installer in any way accountable for this? I'm so sick of crappy and dangerous work.

 

[Ocduff]

Incidentally, in the thread you linked to - the last post mentioned basically the setup I have here as being the "cheapie route". Minus the T cleanout.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/how-should-i-vent-my-new-pellet-stove.54977/

I'm not sure there's room for a T cleanout. More pics attached. That's the whole setup.

I'm okay with cheapie Route as long as it's safe. But also if I'm looking at $500 to make this setup be to code and $1500 to have it to code and done right, I'll go with the latter. Or just sell the stove - the thing certainly isn't saving me any money. It's nice though, and it's here.

 

[vinny11950]

Hopefully a Santa Fe owner will chime in because I don't know if that adapter from the exhaust blower is correct. Is that how it is done with that model stove? Is there a mechanical connection of screws holding it in place or just foil tape? You need to figure that out first.



Go to the manufacturer website, enter your sku number, and get the install and owners manual for you model. It should tell you how to connect things

http://www.quadrafire.com/Owner-Resources/Install-and-Owners-Manuals.aspx

If that is correct, then the fix looks simple: An adapter from the 4 inch flex pipe to the 8 inch liner. It should be a mechanical connection at both ends with a brace that tightens with screws.

And what I meant by inspector I was referring that your towns buildings department, I assume, would want you to pull a permit for the work. They would then send an inspector to review the work to see it was done right.

 

[Ocduff]

Thanks Vinny. I have the original manual so will look it up there.

Will remove tape at exhaust blower to adapter to confirm screws.

And correction - it's a 3" pipe. Found this 3" to 8" DuraVent pipe.

(broken link removed)

Found a 3" T Cleanout pipe too.

Real question is - how is that all going to fit? The T might then be as low as exhaust blower which I can't imagine is to code.

Is adding the correct adapter at stovepipe good then? And is it as simple as removing adapter, removing old block off plate, then sliding the current exhaust pipe through the collar of new stovepipe adapter, then tightening around base of it with a metal strap so it's tight against the exhaust?

Thanks again Vinny.

 

[vinny11950]

That adapter is not going to work because it is for double wall chimney pipe. From the looks of it, it looks like you have 8 inch flex liner in the chimney, then some type of adapter/cap, which they cut a 3 inch hole and jammed in the 3 inch flex pipe from the stove. You need an 8 inch to 3 inch adapter that works on flex pipe at both ends.

People have had good results here.

https://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/

I think you can call them, explain that you have flex pipe at both ends and you need an adapter for it.

This is all pretty handy work, it you are not a handy person, pay the chimney guy to do it and sleep better at night.

 

[Jotel me this]

Nope. Don't use that until its fixed. This type of craftsmanship is what I call, "No clue what im doing, so Im going to risk my life to save a few bucks."

 

[Ocduff]

Ok thanks guys - this was a "pro" install mind you. A pro went home and slept well that night after doing his "job". Don't get me started...

I'm pretty damn handy, but with stuff like this - which has huge implications if by chance I do it wrong - I think hiring someone who does good work is money well spent. Apparently guys like that are in short supply.

So...if I get the correct flex pipe 3/8 adapter from Rockford, I disconnect flex pipe from blower (remove old cap), and slide the new 3/8 adapter over flex pipe, screw it on, seal it up somehow and call it a day?

Or do I cur current flex pipe and screw both ends of it to new adapter?

I use the exhaust blower motor as the Cleanout (have to remove the motor anyway to clean out the stove). Do I still need a T cleanout? Is that a code thing or just a convenience thing?

Like I said I don't see how that's going to fit - at best I won't have access to it, at worst it will be level with exhaust blower.

Thanks for replies guys. Really appreciate you talking a newbie through this so he can sleep soundly at night with his family. I don't take my family's safety lightly.

 

[Ocduff]

Behold, the adapter is screwed on to the exhaust blower. Looks like there is silicone residue on this.

BTW - is there's a silicone type tape widely available? Or a type of tape to protect against any specific leaks? I have some Scotch aluminum tape but I'm sure it has to be made for this type of application.

Thanks again.

 

[vinny11950]

Behold, the adapter is screwed on to the exhaust blower. Looks like there is silicone residue on this.

BTW - is there's a silicone type tape widely available? Or a type of tape to protect against any specific leaks? I have some Scotch aluminum tape but I'm sure it has to be made for this type of application.

Thanks again.

http://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installmanuals/SANTAFEI_MBK_PELLET_INSERT_OWNERS_7019_229.pdf

Okay, from the new pictures, it looks better than I thought at the exhaust end. So looking at your owners manual parts diagram and comparing them to your pictures, the exhaust assemblies look correct.





It looks like they just shoved that HomeSaver 21207 adapter into the Flue Collar Assembly (part 24 in your owners manual) . Can you lift up the HomeSaver adapter off the Flue collar? You shouldn't be able to but I don't see screws securing it to the flue collar (there should be 3 screws securing it in place).

If you are going to do this yourself, treat it as a new install, especially because you can't trust what the previous installers did. Read the install manual for your stove. Figure out clearances to combustibles, support for stove and connections. I had to read the install instructions on my stove several times before I figured it out, so don't feel frustrated if you don't get it on the first read.

http://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installmanuals/SANTAFEI_MBK_PELLET_INSERT_INSTALLATION_7019_230.pdf

This includes making sure the HomeSaver adapter is the correct adapter to use, the 3 inch flex pipe used, and even the liner (does it go all the way to the top? what brand type is it?)

Earlier you asked what type of silicone to use - High heat RTV silicone is what is used. You can find it in auto parts stores, generally called RTV gasket maker. It should go to like 500 degrees. And the foil tape used is HVAC high heat foil tape, found in the HVAC section of HD. Look at the heat rating - it should withstand like 500 degrees.

 

[Ocduff]

Vinny, thanks so much for this info. It's giving me a solid idea of what I'm looking at.

I'm reading all the manuals that you've kindly linked to and yes, a lot to sort through.

But here's a quick answer to your questions:

1) Exhaust collar is NOT secured with 3 screws to the blower housing collar (it is however secured at top of Home Saver Adapter w 4 screws). Pics attached.

2) No I can't make the homesaver adapter budge yanking on it.

3) the 3" flex pipe is a Homesaver 304 (with word "UP 1") stamped beside the 304. Pics attached.

Thanks again for your help - seems like it's just the two of us in here! Your help here is much appreciated.

 

[Overfireinthehole]

Vinny - thank you for your reply and sharing your thoughts and info.

The pellet stove is a Quadra Fire Santa Fe INSERT from 2006.

There is no T cleanout like on my woodstove.

The liner does not go all the way to the top. At least that's what chimney sweep said.

Who is the inspector for these things making sure they are to code? I'm in Vermont.

The Dura Vent looks nice. Any idea what that system would run professionally installed?

Note - there is already a stainless woodstove liner installed in this chimney. Pellet liner continues a few feet up I suppose.

Is original installer in any way accountable for this? I'm so sick of crappy and dangerous work.

What you have is a stub install. It used to be a code install in some of the stove manuals when they would just stub a short piece of flex up into the chimney or larger liner. You could even buy stub kits from securite and Simpson Durravent, although you were supposed to pack insulation around your flex, not just tape it. It’s due to be flexed all the way to the top and have a top plate put on it. It also looks like the clip on exhaust adapter was leaking at some point so the taped it up. I’d say either that gasket was wore out or more likely, the stove/flue was so clogged up that smoke was spilling there due to lack of draft. Quad SF is a great rig. Tear it down, clean it, replace any seals that are wore out, update the venting and be happy and warm.

 

[Overfireinthehole]

What you have is a stub install. It used to be a code install in some of the stove manuals when they would just stub a short piece of flex up into the chimney or larger liner. You could even buy stub kits from securite and Simpson Durravent, although you were supposed to pack insulation around your flex, not just tape it. It’s due to be flexed all the way to the top and have a top plate put on it. It also looks like the clip on exhaust adapter was leaking at some point so the taped it up. I’d say either that gasket was wore out or more likely, the stove/flue was so clogged up that smoke was spilling there due to lack of draft. Quad SF is a great rig. Tear it down, clean it, replace any seals that are wore out, update the venting and be happy and warm.

https://pellet-stove-parts-4less.co...Dyb6RTiuJG3S4vdC8IMSJN09XZtZGqABoC06QQAvD_BwE

 

[Overfireinthehole]

Check out olympias catalog online. They make a 3”-4” flex adapter so you can transition from your existing flex to the new. Don’t bother cutting that adapter off the stove; you’ll just be turning around and putting a new one on.

 

[Ocduff]

BTW the 8" woodstove liner goes to top of masonry chimney. The 3" flex pipe continues into it several feet, which is what chimney sweep said.

But first things first - this setup was installed by a company THAT IS STILL IN BUSINESS.

Question I could ask is why am I messing with it? If I call an inspector over here or fire marshall or whatever - isn't that on this business then to make it right, both from a liability and professional standpoint? Is there even a statute of limitations on dangerous conditions?

I feel like that might be step one here. I don't think the company, in the few dealings I had with them, would do squat if I didn't have someone official backing me.

Meanwhile I can gather intel and plan my project. But also - if a pellet stove isn't saving me money or making my life easier, why do I have it?

 

[zrock]

So you think a company should come good for this that may have installed it 10 years ago? Your home inspector should have caught this when you bought the home so you could work out the repair in the deal. Are you sure the old homeowner did not pull the wood stove and install this himself and the original company had done the wood stove install with the 8 inch liner? Personally if it was me i would just buy a chimney liner kit for the pellet stove and run all new up the old 8 inch.. You could run the liner yourself and have a professional come and do the final connections for you saving you money

 

[Ocduff]

Thanks for that info overfire and zrock. Appreciate all the info and feedback here. I'm obviously new to pellet stoves. Home inspector did the old "we don't inspect chimneys and pellet stoves etc as part of our inspection, we recommend having a certified chimney inspector blah blah blah". This was of course after the day of inspection. Anyway, more BS.

I think I have some good info to go on here to make an informed decision one way or the other. Really appreciate the wealth of info you all are.

Being in Vermont our roof is very steeply sloped. There is no easy access either. So this will have to be a pro job. Old Dad here isn't going to break his neck to save $500.

And yes, if a company did something illegal I believe they should be accountable. Whether a lawyer would agree, I don't know. Personally I just get so tired of people who do crappy if not dangerous work, take their money, and go home and sleep easy. I see that more often than not (like the company that ran out radon system with 14 gauge wire to a 20 amp circuit breaker). Stuff like that. Like come the heck on, guys. And how is that legal?

Will report back with what happens. Chimney sweep had suggested installing collar and calling it a day but I'll ask about a new pipe install. That seems like money well spent.

 

[zrock]

That may have been allowed in code back then.

You can rent a teleporter/man lift for cheap for a day..

Unfortunately what is done is done but I would have fired that home inspector. If he was unable to complete the job he could have called a chimney inspector to finish the job instead of leaving u with a partial inspection

I feel your pain.

Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk

 

[vinny11950]

Ocduff, however you decide to fix the issue, pull a permit with your local building department to do the work, have their inspector sign off on it, and then send copies of that info to your home insurance company certified mail. Anything happens, and they have to pay it then.

 

[Ocduff]

Found receipt of original install, FWIW. Looks like there's more under that 8" cap, that the 3" flex is shoved into. May just be more 8" pipe.

But this may serve, until I pull cap, to enlighten this situation. If anyone can make sense of this, I'm all ears. They certainly paid a lot!