Depth Setting?

[thewoodlands]

The first two pictures are of a chain I had sharpened at the local shop, the third is the chain I hand file. The first two have a little hump to it which I'll have to file down, is this the wrong depth setting?

Pictures are not that great.

gibir

 

[JustWood]

Thats the onLEE hump you'll ever see that don't dew diddly! = No effect on cutting.

 

[thewoodlands]

Thats the onLEE hump you'll ever see that don't dew diddly! = No effect on cutting.

Should I even bother to file it down or should I simpLEE leave it alone?

gibir

 

[JustWood]

I woodn't bother. All our feller buncher chains looked like that after the grinder. It's too far down to have any affect on anything.

 

[smokinj]

I woodn't bother. All our feller buncher chains looked like that after the grinder. It's too far down to have any affect on anything.

Yep,yep! :cheese:

 

[thewoodlands]

I woodn't bother. All our feller buncher chains looked like that after the grinder. It's too far down to have any affect on anything.

Yep,yep! :cheese:

Smokin, I'm switching subjects but on the 660 you have a summer mode and winter mode, for the summer mode have you ever taken it out completeLEE?

gibir

 

[Danno77]

Won't hurt anything. Sure does bug the heck out of one, though, don't it?

 

[Adios Pantalones]

As long as it's the same on both sides. Smokin solved a cutting issue for me recently by guessing that the gullets were screwed up on my chain- it was different one side to the other

 

[Battenkiller]

I've seen a hump like that on brand new chain. Nothing to be concerned about, just a sharpening artifact.

Maybe it's just the photo, but it looks like your hand-sharpened ones have a bit too much hook on the cutters. I was told to keep the file up at the top of the cutter plate and not to worry about the bottom, otherwise you'll make a hook. Because I mostly use my saws to carve, I sharpen very frequently, so I usually freehand rather than use a guide. I found that rotating the file toward the gullet (away from the edge) helps it rise up against the bottom of the cutter plate. That makes sure you are actually sharpening the edge, plus helps avoid forming a hook. Of course, if you are using a guide you can't do that, but then again, you won't need to. I can sharpen a chain in 5 minutes now, from the time I hear the gas running out and I hit the kill switch to the finished product. I don't even use a vise, just hold the cutter tight with one hand and file straight with the other. May not be quite as precise as using a guide, but it gets the job done good enough and in a hurry. They sure cut great sharpened that way, maybe even better than a new chain.

 

[golfandwoodnut]

I've seen a hump like that on brand new chain. Nothing to be concerned about, just a sharpening artifact.

Maybe it's just the photo, but it looks like your hand-sharpened ones have a bit too much hook on the cutters. I was told to keep the file up at the top of the cutter plate and not to worry about the bottom, otherwise you'll make a hook. Because I mostly use my saws to carve, I sharpen very frequently, so I usually freehand rather than use a guide. I found that rotating the file toward the gullet (away from the edge) helps it rise up against the bottom of the cutter plate. That makes sure you are actually sharpening the edge, plus helps avoid forming a hook. Of course, if you are using a guide you can't do that, but then again, you won't need to. I can sharpen a chain in 5 minutes now, from the time I hear the gas running out and I hit the kill switch to the finished product. I don't even use a vise, just hold the cutter tight with one hand and file straight with the other. May not be quite as precise as using a guide, but it gets the job done good enough and in a hurry. They sure cut great sharpened that way, maybe even better than a new chain.

Battenkiller, are you saying you sharpen from the pointed side of the cutter? I sharpen mostly free hand as well and can do it faster than taking the chain off and sharpening in a machine. I do put it in a vise and do half from the one side of the cutter and the other half from the pointed side. This way I do not have to flip the saw in the vice. You definetly get a different feel going from the pointed side, but I have been getting good results. Hope that makes sense.

 

[thewoodlands]

I've seen a hump like that on brand new chain. Nothing to be concerned about, just a sharpening artifact.

Maybe it's just the photo, but it looks like your hand-sharpened ones have a bit too much hook on the cutters. I was told to keep the file up at the top of the cutter plate and not to worry about the bottom, otherwise you'll make a hook. Because I mostly use my saws to carve, I sharpen very frequently, so I usually freehand rather than use a guide. I found that rotating the file toward the gullet (away from the edge) helps it rise up against the bottom of the cutter plate. That makes sure you are actually sharpening the edge, plus helps avoid forming a hook. Of course, if you are using a guide you can't do that, but then again, you won't need to. I can sharpen a chain in 5 minutes now, from the time I hear the gas running out and I hit the kill switch to the finished product. I don't even use a vise, just hold the cutter tight with one hand and file straight with the other. May not be quite as precise as using a guide, but it gets the job done good enough and in a hurry. They sure cut great sharpened that way, maybe even better than a new chain.

I see what your talking about, looks like the downward pressure was more than it should be.

http://wn.com/Chainsaw_Guide_Bar_Maintenance

Thanks
gibir

 

[smokinj]

:cheese:

 

[Battenkiller]

Battenkiller, are you saying you sharpen from the pointed side of the cutter? I sharpen mostly free hand as well and can do it faster than taking the chain off and sharpening in a machine. I do put it in a vise and do half from the one side of the cutter and the other half from the pointed side. This way I do not have to flip the saw in the vice. You definetly get a different feel going from the pointed side, but I have been getting good results. Hope that makes sense.

No, I don't sharpen in that direction... ever. Too easy to booger up the tip that way, at least for me. If you can do it with success, then it works for you. I'd probably catch the tip every now and then and break it off, or at least chip off the chrome plating bad enough I'd have to bring all the other teeth back to that point. Then do it again and again until I eventually ran out of cutter plate and had to start all over with a new chain. :lol:

I always push the file away from me while filing on the side opposite the tip, but I rotate the file itself throughout the stoke. I change the direction of file rotation with each side, using a motion that would make the file want to naturally roll up the gullet wall. This would be counterclockwise when the tip is pointing away to the right, and clockwise when the tip is pointing away to the left. Hope that makes sense.

By freehand, I mean I just use the file in a handle - no guiding fixture at all to hold the file at the correct height. Just lots of practice with files of all sorts over the last 30 years. Way back before I ever sharpened my own chains, a French master goldsmith showed me a trick that helps keep a file moving in a straight line to overcome the natural tendency for the file to move in a slight vertical arc as you push it forward. Practice dropping your wrist ever so slightly as you follow through during the stroke. After a while, you will be able to keep the file perfectly horizontal throughout the entire file-length stroke. This trick works amazingly well. For example, when my wife used to do jewelry, I asked her to file a small piece of silver dead flat. When she was satisfied it was perfectly flat, I took the same piece and filed off the almost imperceptible crown she had filed into the surface. At long last, I finally got to one-up her in the metalworking dept. :coolgrin:

On my regular 3/8 chain, I use the Pferd guide to get the rakers down and even in height every 3-4 sharpenings or so. On my carving bars, I run 3/8 lo-pro (even on the bigger saws) with the rakers modified in a way that I definitely wouldn't do on a chain used primarily for crosscutting, but works well with the milling-type cuts that predominate in carving. It's a "best of both worlds" method that doesn't excel at either, but gets the wood out in a hurry during rough blocking work, and especially plunging with a narrow-tip carving bar. On those chains, the edge of the raker is offset toward the center, and is actually sharpened to a degree, so it slices in and takes a nice chip even when the rakers are a bit high. I would never use such a chain on a regular large radius sprocket-nose bar, but it has pretty low kickback potential with a narrow-tip carving bar (the size of a quarter, or even a dime), and yet is a pretty aggressive cutter in all cutting directions.

 

[JustWood]

You sharpen almost exactLEE like I do.
I point my rakers also so that the top is narrow and more centered.
If you look at the top of your cutter is the leading edge concave?

 

[thewoodlands]

:cheese:

GF's work or yours?

gibir

 

[smokinj]

:cheese:

GF's work or yours?

gibir

Thats my chain before her...lol But she cuts them no different.

 

[Battenkiller]

Zap, did you mean this one instead?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvq3GS1szKU&feature=player_embedded#at=28[/youtube]

If so, this is a perfect video for learning all you need to know to sharpen freehand. I do things just slightly different because I am mostly sharpening chains that are used on carving bars. With the non-sprocket narrow-tip bars we usually use, tightening up the chain tight enough so you can lift up on the file through the stroke will make the chain difficult to advance to the next tooth. Besides, then I have to adjust the chain tension all over again. Chain tension is a tricky thing on carving bars because you absolutely have to run them very loose or you will kill the bar ($$$) in short order, plus you won't be able to effectively cut curves (I know, the very thing most guys try to avoid). There is a fine line in chain tension here, and if you cross that line, you will throw the chain and ruin it. Better carvers than me can run a very loose chain and not throw it. I'm still trying to figure that one out, but when I have it right for me, I like to leave it that way as long as possible.

By rolling the file in a climbing fashion, you avoid deepening the gullet and creating a hook. I also only use one hand to both guide and push the file. I use the left hand to hold the chain chassis firmly while I file the cutter with the right hand. This keeps the cutter from rolling over in the guide bar slot because the chain is still loose. It sounds very awkward, and it is at first, but it frees you up completely from the vise, and that is a time saver. The faster you can get a sharp chain, the more often you will sharpen it.

FWIW some very experienced guys like more hook. If you are cutting softwood only, you will get a more aggressive cut with a bit more hook, but it won't last as long between sharpenings. I was at the local Dolmar dealer just hanging out and I saw one of the owners hand-filing a chain. I was curious since they have a very expensive commercial grinder setup. The guy said it was a favor for a special customer that bought tons of stuff from them over the years. He likes more hook than you can get with the grinder because he mostly cuts softwood. For the extremely hard woods you seem to favor (and who wouldn't, considering the cornucopia you are blessed with), more hook is not a good thing.

 

[Battenkiller]

You sharpen almost exactLEE like I do.
I point my rakers also so that the top is narrow and more centered.
If you look at the top of your cutter is the leading edge concave?

Makes sense to me that you would use these techniques. The offset of the raker top toward the center came to the chainsaw carving world via a crazy but likable guy named Dave Tremko, who used to be a PNW faller. It was his everyday grind. It exposes more of the side of the cutter and allows a bigger chip to be pulled out. Since then, some guys have gone ahead and actually sharpened the entire raker top like a razor blade with a Dremel tool. It is a tedious process, but produces spectacular results with plunge cuts if done correctly. Plunging is slow with carving bars because you only have one tooth in contact with the wood at the tip at any given time. The sharpened raker actually cuts the chip in two and produces short, narrow noodles if done correctly. They come flying out of the cut like a blizzard. This makes for a faster plunge cut, essential for quick initial blocking out of the piece. Speed carvers love it. I'm learning to love it, but it can get pretty grabby if you push the cut. I'm still acquiring the skills, so I try everything at least for awhile.

Not positive about the leading edge being concave, but I think I noticed that to a small degree. Not sure what causes that, but they sure seem to cut fine.

 

[smokinj]

You sharpen almost exactLEE like I do.
I point my rakers also so that the top is narrow and more centered.
If you look at the top of your cutter is the leading edge concave?

Makes sense to me that you would use these techniques. The offset of the raker top toward the center came to the chainsaw carving world via a crazy but likable guy named Dave Tremko, who used to be a PNW faller. It was his everyday grind. It exposes more of the side of the cutter and allows a bigger chip to be pulled out. Since then, some guys have gone ahead and actually sharpened the entire raker top like a razor blade with a Dremel tool. It is a tedious process, but produces spectacular results with plunge cuts if done correctly. Plunging is slow with carving bars because you only have one tooth in contact with the wood at the tip at any given time. The sharpened raker actually cuts the chip in two and produces short, narrow noodles if done correctly. They come flying out of the cut like a blizzard. This makes for a faster plunge cut, essential for quick initial blocking out of the piece. Speed carvers love it. I'm learning to love it, but it can get pretty grabby if you push the cut. I'm still acquiring the skills, so I try everything at least for awhile.

Not positive about the leading edge being concave, but I think I noticed that to a small degree. Not sure what causes that, but they sure seem to cut fine.

Same kinda thing in milling your looking for a SMOOOOTH finnish. Raker should be rounded slightly sweep back. Smoooth the name of the game. :cheese:

 

[JustWood]

You sharpen almost exactLEE like I do.
I point my rakers also so that the top is narrow and more centered.
If you look at the top of your cutter is the leading edge concave?

Makes sense to me that you would use these techniques. The offset of the raker top toward the center came to the chainsaw carving world via a crazy but likable guy named Dave Tremko, who used to be a PNW faller. It was his everyday grind. It exposes more of the side of the cutter and allows a bigger chip to be pulled out. Since then, some guys have gone ahead and actually sharpened the entire raker top like a razor blade with a Dremel tool. It is a tedious process, but produces spectacular results with plunge cuts if done correctly. Plunging is slow with carving bars because you only have one tooth in contact with the wood at the tip at any given time. The sharpened raker actually cuts the chip in two and produces short, narrow noodles if done correctly. They come flying out of the cut like a blizzard. This makes for a faster plunge cut, essential for quick initial blocking out of the piece. Speed carvers love it. I'm learning to love it, but it can get pretty grabby if you push the cut. I'm still acquiring the skills, so I try everything at least for awhile.

Not positive about the leading edge being concave, but I think I noticed that to a small degree. Not sure what causes that, but they sure seem to cut fine.

I never thought about it cutting the chip but I don't sharpen them to a razor point either. The top of mine may be 1/32" wide.
I agree. It does expose more of the side of the cutter and allows for less drag on the chain having a thin raker. If you look at the chips close enough you'll see some that are curved that were formed on the 90 degree corner of the tooth.
The concave of my teeth comes from the rolling of the file and at least in my mind makes for faster cutting. Kinda reminds me of the business end of a beaver tooth (concave) and them buggers can realLEE cut!
I plunge cut every tree on the fell and working with muddy trees on a deck or topping under pressure.

 

[Battenkiller]

Lee, here's a shot of one of my modded chains. Even though this is a relatively new chain, you can see that I get some of that hump even with a file. That tells me I'm not bearing down and am actually sharpening the top of the cutter plate. I don't grind the rakers at as fine an angle as I've seen some guys do, and I don't get them "razor" sharp, but they do slice into the chip pretty well. You ought to give it a try on an old chain and see how it does. I ordinarily wouldn't recommend anybody using chain like this with a regular bar, but you certainly have the experience to assess its safety for your uses.

You can also see how I have to grind the back of the cutter plate until it is at the back of the rear rivet. That's so the back corner doesn't pound against the wood on plunge cuts. The narrow tip on the carving bars have such a tight radius that the backs of the cutter plates push the chain away from the wood before the chip is completely formed. I stopped using Stihl chain and went to Oregon 91VX because it already has a shortened cutter plate. Either way, lots less sharpenings, but you have to do it to get it to plunge well with those narrow tips.

Check out the damage on the drive links. That's from running 3/8 lo-pro on a regular 3/8 rim sprocket. You have to grind it away or it jams in the bar groove. It comes back again, but not as bad. On more powerful saws (this was only on a 346), the tips of the drive links eventually get ripped right off and the chain is then trashed. It happens well before you get to the back of the cutter plate, so having that shorter plate with fewer sharpenings isn't really the problem after all. A carving buddy carves with a 7900 that was woods ported by Ed Heard (the race saw guy) in Canada. He trashes his drive links on a new chain within a month or so, but he makes about $10K worth of bears in that time, so the extra speed gotten by using that monster saw for roughing out pays off, at least for him.

There is a lot of confusion about the use of 3/8 regular rims to drive 3/8 lo-pro (Stihl EP) chain, but Ed Danzer from Dansko explained the problem to me. Even though both 3/8 regular and 3/8 lo-pro have the same pitch, the drive links on the lo-pro chain are significantly smaller. He actually ground off half of an Oregon PowerMate rim and mounted it on a saw with lo-pro wrapped around it. He discovered that only one pin at a time was ever in contact with a drive link with this combo. He makes special balanced rim racing sprockets to address the problem, but they only come in 8-tooth, not the normal 7-tooth. Oregon is now aware of this problem, and Allison at tech support told me they are coming out with a new (slightly larger) cast rim for lo-pro, but she has no idea when that will be. Stihl has always been aware of this problem, and their 3/8 EP 7-tooth rims are about 1/8" larger than their 3/8 regular 7-tooth rims. Problem for the rest of the world is that they don't match the drums machined for the Oregon small spline rims.

 

[smokinj]

Lee, here's a shot of one of my modded chains. Even though this is a relatively new chain, you can see that I get some of that hump even with a file. That tells me I'm not bearing down and am actually sharpening the top of the cutter plate. I don't grind the rakers at as fine an angle as I've seen some guys do, and I don't get them "razor" sharp, but they do slice into the chip pretty well. You ought to give it a try on an old chain and see how it does. I ordinarily wouldn't recommend anybody using chain like this with a regular bar, but you certainly have the experience to assess its safety for your uses.

You can also see how I have to grind the back of the cutter plate until it is at the back of the rear rivet. That's so the back corner doesn't pound against the wood on plunge cuts. The narrow tip on the carving bars have such a tight radius that the backs of the cutter plates push the chain away from the wood before the chip is completely formed. I stopped using Stihl chain and went to Oregon 91VX because it already has a shortened cutter plate. Either way, lots less sharpenings, but you have to do it to get it to plunge well with those narrow tips.

Check out the damage on the drive links. That's from running 3/8 lo-pro on a regular 3/8 rim sprocket. You have to grind it away or it jams in the bar groove. It comes back again, but not as bad. On more powerful saws (this was only on a 346), the tips of the drive links eventually get ripped right off and the chain is then trashed. It happens well before you get to the back of the cutter plate, so having that shorter plate with fewer sharpenings isn't really the problem after all. A carving buddy carves with a 7900 that was woods ported by Ed Heard (the race saw guy) in Canada. He trashes his drive links on a new chain within a month or so, but he makes about $10K worth of bears in that time, so the extra speed gotten by using that monster saw for roughing out pays off, at least for him.

There is a lot of confusion about the use of 3/8 regular rims to drive 3/8 lo-pro (Stihl EP) chain, but Ed Danzer from Dansko explained the problem to me. Even though both 3/8 regular and 3/8 lo-pro have the same pitch, the drive links on the lo-pro chain are significantly smaller. He actually ground off half of an Oregon PowerMate rim and mounted it on a saw with lo-pro wrapped around it. He discovered that only one pin at a time was ever in contact with a drive link with this combo. He makes special balanced rim racing sprockets to address the problem, but they only come in 8-tooth, not the normal 7-tooth. Oregon is now aware of this problem, and Allison at tech support told me they are coming out with a new (slightly larger) cast rim for lo-pro, but she has no idea when that will be. Stihl has always been aware of this problem, and their 3/8 EP 7-tooth rims are about 1/8" larger than their 3/8 regular 7-tooth rims. Problem for the rest of the world is that they don't match the drums machined for the Oregon small spline rims.

Can you do a pic of the flip side?

 

[JustWood]

Wow! Thats pretty gnarly lookin , how you have the raker filed. I just angle very slightLEE forward with not as much side angle either but I'm just felling and bucking.
Ever break a cuttter link? I can see how you could stress the cutter due to the raker pulling the link one way while the cutter pulling opposite direction.

 

[Battenkiller]

Can you do a pic of the flip side?

SJ, the back of another raker can be seen to the left in the photo. It is untouched, just the one side is beveled.

Lee, no broken links I've heard of from this mod. That may be because the raker usually splits the chip, or it may be that there isn't enough force acting in those vectors to overcome the tensile strength of the link. I'm not an engineer, just a copycat. In fact, I never would have dreamed of doing this on my own, but lots of experienced carvers are using it. I was real nervous when I first tried it, and I thought it would be grabby as hell, but it's really not as bad as having your rakers filed too low... even though the net effect is somewhat the same (rakers going deeper into the kerf). I think it allow for a smoother transition to that depth, so it is aggressive without being grabby or jumping in the cut. It does seem to be a bit rougher in crosscuts, but 75% of your big cuts in carving are along or at an angle to the long grain of the log. That's where it shines.

 

[smokinj]

Can you do a pic of the flip side?

SJ, the back of another raker can be seen to the left in the photo. It is untouched, just the one side is beveled.

Lee, no broken links I've heard of from this mod. That may be because the raker usually splits the chip, or it may be that there isn't enough force acting in those vectors to overcome the tensile strength of the link. I'm not an engineer, just a copycat. In fact, I never would have dreamed of doing this on my own, but lots of experienced carvers are using it. I was real nervous when I first tried it, and I thought it would be grabby as hell, but it's really not as bad as having your rakers filed too low... even though the net effect is somewhat the same (rakers going deeper into the kerf). I think it allow for a smoother transition to that depth, so it is aggressive without being grabby or jumping in the cut. It does seem to be a bit rougher in crosscuts, but 75% of your big cuts in carving are along or at an angle to the long grain of the log. That's where it shines.

Very interesting to say the least...Thats a whole different color cat over milling. Oh and the gullet is what I was wanting to see.