DHW question with fellow wood burners.

[Crizzoft]

Here goes and I have checked for other threads but none meet my specific situation.

I have a hydronic heating system (Oil Fired) that is not a cold start system (runs all the time to maintain minimum temp). It had a tankless coil but was disconnected (hard water?) and an electric hot water heater was installed by previous homeowner.

The Problem:

I keep burning through elements on my hot water heater and its a maintence nightmare.

The question:

Given that my furnace shouldnt be shut off and I only use it when it gets really cold as I have my Quadrafire 4100i and my Harman Advance running all the time to take care of my heating needs. (They do quite the job). What would be my best solution to my DHW needs?

#1 Keep fixing or replace the Electric Hot water heater and deal with it
#2 Have an indirect tank installed off my boiler and run as a zone.

#1 is the cheapest fix up front but would the costs of #2 be returned as I have to run my boiler anyway to maintain a minimum temp?

 

[Oregon aloha]

Different areas of the country have different fuel costs, so I don't know your situation for sure. But from what I'm reading I think I would add a water softener and go back to tankless as the need is low.

 

[Boiler74]

How often are your elements going out? And is it only the lower, or both lower and upper element?

 

[Crizzoft]

About Once a year give or take. Cold shower before going to work last night was not enjoyable.

First time was the bottom element. Then I replaced them both because they were leaking. But they continue to slowly leak.

I live in central mass if that helps for the fuel prices.

 

[Boiler74]

How old is it? Elements don't usually just leak. I manage over 100 apartments. Lots of electric water heaters. Usually lime scale is what kills elements. The lower one especially. When you change the element did you clean all the scale out? I use a shop vac and a piece of clear tubing to suck it all out. They you have to make sure the threads and outside of the element hole is very clean before installing the new element. You want the element to get a good tight seal and need a good wrench to get the element tight. .

If you go for replacement, consider a tankless NG heater. Very efficient. It also sounds like you would benefit from a softener.

 

[Crizzoft]

I didn't do a great job on the threads so this time I'll square that away to prevent further leakages. I have the element wrench so she gets tight.

I do shop vac it out to get all the sediment. I also have some crazy softener and radon water system so my water is good.

The water heater was manufactured in 2010.
The first element was rusted right through and that was the bottom one.

The first element

 

[Boiler74]

Do you have dielectric unions on the top of the heater? These allow dissimilar metals, usually galvanized pipe and copper, to come together without any corrosion issues. Also, is the anode rod in the heaters till intact? It's a sacrificial rod inside the heater that is supposed to rust first. Some remove them cause they can cause a rotten egg smell.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

Also, is the anode rod in the heaters till intact? It's a sacrificial rod inside the heater that is supposed to rust first. Some remove them cause they can cause a rotten egg smell.

A completely dissolved anode was my first thought when the OP said "I keep burning through elements on my hot water heater and its a maintence nightmare".. I've been there with water heaters a few times. Certain types of hard water will eat the anode rods up pretty quick, and once they are gone you have no protection for the metal heating elements.
(broken link removed to http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/water-heater-anodes.html)

 

[Boiler74]

Found this:

(broken link removed to http://www.faucetdepot.com/resources/protect-your-water-heater-from-corrosion.html)

Never considered a softener as a source of problems, but I've never heard of one that deals with Radon as the OP said. Could just be lots of things going on that are causing this. Around here, a softener extends the life of a heater, and greatly limits the amount of scale buildup. But if you have scale in the heater, perhaps the softener isn't set up right. I'd still bet on the anode or no dielectric unions. But could be a number if things.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

Anodes are consumed more rapidly with softened water, another slightly more costly alternative is to install a (broken link removed to http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/OrderPages/XCart/Powered-Anode-FAQ.html)

 

[lml999]

Frankly, with the cost of electric power in MA, I'd go back to oil fired DHW. Whether a tankless or indirect is a better solution for you, I don't know. Depends on how much water you need daily, etc. If this is a full time house, I'd probably lean towards the indirect (which is what I have), but it's worth asking a knowledgeable HVAC guy about it.

And as others have said, you probably need a water softener. My inlaws have a house in the Berkshires and must treat their well water...I think they went through a couple of water heaters too before they installed the treatment system.

 

[altmartion]

who told you, you can't shut the boiler off? what boiler is it? maybe it can be converted to a cold start. also you shouldn't soften water before the water heater. it actually can do more damage. a sediment filter should be installed before the wh. depending on the water balance the filter alone can increase the life of the wh. have you ever had the water tested? an indirect would be a good alternative. just make sure you get quality. I suggest superstor or lochinvar squire. both have life warranty and are ss. the squire does have a higher flow rate demand but only once have I had an issue. I think they both have a space heating option as well. tankless/ on demand are great, but they are not for everyone. di a lot of research before you go that way. personally, if the water is as bad as it sounds it won't be worth it. the maintenance alone will probably never alow it to pay for itself. i highly recommend against a coil in the boiler. once they start to plug up it is frustrating. they are prone to leaking at the seal and inside the boiler. it can be very dangerous if it develops a leak inside the boiler. and they are expensive to run because the boiler needs to maintain a minimum temp. most likely your boiler can be converted to a cold start.

 

[Boiler74]

I think with regards to a softener before the heater, you need to decide what is more important. If you are in a very hard water environment, the scale buildup may kill your element before the anode rod goes. So then a softener is a good choice. You just have to keep an eye on the anode. I personally soften my hot water, and most do in my area. And like I said before, I take care of many hot water heaters. The places we have softeners before the heater makes the heater last longer. Otherwise we scale up bad and start losing elements. You also lose volume as the scale builds up. But in other areas, it may not be such an issue. That's for you to decide.

 

[altmartion]

I think with regards to a softener before the heater, you need to decide what is more important. If you are in a very hard water environment, the scale buildup may kill your element before the anode rod goes. So then a softener is a good choice. You just have to keep an eye on the anode. I personally soften my hot water, and most do in my area. And like I said before, I take care of many hot water heaters. The places we have softeners before the heater makes the heater last longer. Otherwise we scale up bad and start losing elements. You also lose volume as the scale builds up. But in other areas, it may not be such an issue. That's for you to decide.

do you have sediment filters as well? what micron? how hard is the water pre conditioning?

 

[Boiler74]

We can't have sediment filters on over a 100 water heaters. It just isn't feasible. The monthly or bi-monthly maintenance on them would be overwhelming. I do at my house and a few places around. I understand they will help. What I was saying is that different areas of the country will have different water needs. I will always soften hot water---- both for the life of the heater and for my own comfort. But that is here. I don't know what it is like where you are or the OP is.

 

[altmartion]

We can't have sediment filters on over a 100 water heaters. It just isn't feasible. The monthly or bi-monthly maintenance on them would be overwhelming. I do at my house and a few places around. I understand they will help. What I was saying is that different areas of the country will have different water needs. I will always soften hot water---- both for the life of the heater and for my own comfort. But that is here. I don't know what it is like where you are or the OP is.

what is the hardness of the water? there can be advantages to doing it your way too. if you have a little iron the softer will remove some of it. ph is the most important. if that is good it prolongs the life of anything metal. this is why I always test and treat boiler water.

 

[Boiler74]

what is the hardness of the water? there can be advantages to doing it your way too. if you have a little iron the softer will remove some of it. ph is the most important. if that is good it prolongs the life of anything metal. this is why I always test and treat boiler water.

We are 19-26 grains per gallon in our area. But I did a quick search, and the conductivity of water can also vary. Which I would assume would change the rate of electrolysis from area to area. I had never heard of your approach before, because in my area the heater goes after the softener. And it works. But other areas are different. And I didn't know that until this thread. The level of hardness, and I guess the level of conductivity can vary. Cited here:

http://water.epa.gov/type/rsl/monitoring/vms59.cfm

And that varying and excessive conductivity can change the speed of anode degredation. Cited here:

http://www.hotwater.com/lit/bulletin/bulletin61.pdf

So it does vary from area to area in our country. Personally, if the trade-off to soft water was a new anode rod every year or so, I'd do it. I like softened water when taking a shower! But in my area it isn't necessary.

 

[altmartion]

probably not all systems around here need to set up my way. so many do it's just a "rule of thumb" I guess. I always install sediment filters to catch the particals that will hold on to the "bad stuff". hardness and iron are always an issue in my working area. being a mechanical contractor I see it a lot. I can not believe the leaking and poorly operating boilers I see in my area. new systems too! I swear I am the only contractor who treats water. it drives me nuts. especially with condensing boilers.

 

[Boiler74]

probably not all systems around here need to set up my way. so many do it's just a "rule of thumb" I guess. I always install sediment filters to catch the particals that will hold on to the "bad stuff". hardness and iron are always an issue in my working area. being a mechanical contractor I see it a lot. I can not believe the leaking and poorly operating boilers I see in my area. new systems too! I swear I am the only contractor who treats water. it drives me nuts. especially with condensing boilers.

We had to put sediment filters on some properties around here because the water company improved the water hardness level. I spoke to their engineer, and the reason we were getting so much sediment in our toilet valves and aerators was because the water was so clean now (softer) that it was actually scrubbing years of scale buildup off the supply lines. I didn't quite understand or believe how that could happen, but over time we've seen a drop off in sediment in the filters we installed. A weird phenomenon for sure.

We've gotten off topic from the original purpose of this post, but I hope some of our discussions help the OP.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

The salt in the water from water softeners is the reason anodes in water heaters dissolve faster. The saltier the water the higher the conductivity of the water, the faster the anode will dissolve.
It's a trade off. While you might have to replace the anodes in your water heater more often with a water softener, you will be protecting all the other things down the line from hard water problems. (taps, washing machine, dishwasher, dishes, ice maker, etc...)

 

[altmartion]

proper maintenance will help prevent premature failure of elements and tank lining. it's going to happen any way but draining and back flushing at least once every year should be done. not just on stand alones but any vessel. city water or not. while obviously it won't be as bad with public water but none the less. as I said before, an indirect unit would probably be your best bet. on demand water heaters can be sensitive to water conditions, navian has improved them for these situations but still, they have a limit as well. hopefully the op can convert to a cold start. it will make thing easier and more economical wise as well.

 

[Crizzoft]

Discussion definitely helped. Need to replace anode rod for sure (never knew it was there). Bottom element was corroded through.

Tomorrow's project.

Thanks for the help as always

 

[altmartion]

Discussion definitely helped. Need to replace anode rod for sure (never knew it was there). Bottom element was corroded through.

Tomorrow's project.

Thanks for the help as always

so what is the reason you were told not to shut the boiler off?

 

[Crizzoft]

My boiler man. Not oil man. Said the cost to run could be cheaper than cost to repair leakage and what not

 

[altmartion]

My boiler man. Not oil man. Said the cost to run could be cheaper than cost to repair leakage and what not

if you run an indirect, the boiler will fire once or twice every day, maybe. the boiler will stay plenty warm enough so it won't leak. now that i know this, i suggest making it a cold start system and installing an indirect fired water heater. just my 2 cents.