Domestic Hot Water

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Oct 15, 2020
167
New Hampshire
Looking for input on whether we should run our DHW off the pellet boiler or go with a Heat Pump Water Heater (Which has a $500) rebate as well.

Any experience or thoughts on which is best to go with?

Current system heats DHW off Gas but we are planning to switch heat over to pellet boiler which is why we're trying to plan out DHW.

Thanks!
 
The problem I have with DHW off my storage is that it can go down to 120 and less if I want to. It's pretty hard making 140-150 degree water at those low temps.
I also feel that trying to do so wastes my heat for the house.
I just haven't gotten around to changing the DHW back onto the LP boiler.
 
Is there such a thing as a thermostatically controlled switching valve? If you could run it off the pellet boiler until the temp dropped below 140 or so then it auto switches to the heat pump?
 
The problem I have with DHW off my storage is that it can go down to 120 and less if I want to. It's pretty hard making 140-150 degree water at those low temps.
I also feel that trying to do so wastes my heat for the house.
I just haven't gotten around to changing the DHW back onto the LP boiler.

so you have a Pellet boiler with thermal storage? Our setup wouldn’t have that; this particular boiler actually recommends against it due to the design. That being said I have done a fair bit of research on Thermal storage.

One benefit of the HPWH is not firing the pellet boiler in the summer repeatedly just to maintain hot water. Should save a fair amount of ignitions.
 
I think in the real world and long term the HPWH will probably be a good investment. I'm sure there is a H/X setup to also allow the pellet boiler to make DHW in the winter which can be stored in the HPWH tank.
 
I’m quite happy with my HP water heater (9 months so far). a/c and dehumidification is a bonus here in the south. My quick math says it’s cheaper to heat the water with the heat pump vs pellets (20%) but that didn’t take into account the cost of the equipment. And gas and heat pump will cost about the same.

a lot depends on how much hot water you use. We are a family of 6 with a big soaker tub. To put some numbers to it. Say hot water costs 50$ a month heatpump could save you 10$ a month or 120$ a year. If you heat pump lasts 10 years you save 1200$. So it may or may not break even from cost perspective. I guess the details like pellet cost, electricity rate and hot water usage will tell you if it saves money. Figure in a 500$ rebate I’m guessing the heatpump makes money sense.

just feeding the hot water heater (even a standard electric one) from the boiler (treating like a holding tank but one that can heat/maintain temps) seems like the best of both worlds but the most expensive.

Heat pump needs a condensate drain and has a filter that needs cleaned. Most units can be ducted on both intake and exhaust. I know nothing about pellet boilers but I do have first hand experience with a pellet stove which has had more complicated upkeep than every water heater I’ve ever lived with. We’ll see how my new water heater holds up. Just my thoughts.
Evan
PS 50$ a month for hot water was just chosen for easy math but is in my usage ballpark.
 
Is there such a thing as a thermostatically controlled switching valve? If you could run it off the pellet boiler until the temp dropped below 140 or so then it auto switches to the heat pump?
Yes


You wouldcould just leave the water heater on and it will operate normally when the boiler water is bypassed from the plate exchanger.
 
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so you have a Pellet boiler with thermal storage? Our setup wouldn’t have that; this particular boiler actually recommends against it due to the design. That being said I have done a fair bit of research on Thermal storage.

One benefit of the HPWH is not firing the pellet boiler in the summer repeatedly just to maintain hot water. Should save a fair amount of ignitions.
No pellet boiler. I burn wood thru a Tarm Solo 30 with 600 gallons of storage. My system between the LP and wood boilers switch automatically on which one is hot. If the wood is hot it cuts out the LP boiler from starting as well as closes a zone valve to prevent any warm or hot water entering that part of the system.
 
So based on the most recent quote for my pellet boiler system including a new HPHW or Indirect, there's a difference of $850 between the two setups after all the rebates.

The Heat pump setup is the more expensive setup but I'm wondering if it's worth spending that extra bit ($850) so my pellet boiler isn't running in the summer, saving me what I would assume is much more wear on the ignitor? I'm not sure if the cost to run the HP will be less in fuel than the In-direct, I haven't quite figured that out yet.

Any thoughts?
 
If you have a place for the HPWH that you can tolerate the noise and height then yes, I would get that. The HPWH allows the use of onboard resistance elements as well as the heat pump. I would probably have one if not for the size of those things and the noise.

I like my super simple 329$ rheem electric water heater in a closed closet. Zero maintenance, silent, no condensate drain, and it's actually cheap to run with our 11 cent electricity.
 
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If you have a place for the HPWH that you can tolerate the noise and height then yes, I would get that. The HPWH allows the use of onboard resistance elements as well as the heat pump. I would probably have one if not for the size of those things and the noise.

I like my super simple 329$ rheem electric water heater in a closed closet. Zero maintenance, silent, no condensate drain, and it's actually cheap to run with our 11 cent electricity.


So that is what makes this hard.

We have the space. Sound, I'm not sure how loud it is so I can't say whether that will be an issue but I will be working in the basement often and usually am playing music. They will likely need to install a pump to drain the condensate as well which will add ~$300 to the bill if so and maybe more noise for the pump?

On the other hand if we go in-direct the pellet boiler is going to be firing on and off year round to produce that hot water, and of course will add some heat ot the basement.

I really just don't know what to do.
 
So that is what makes this hard.

We have the space. Sound, I'm not sure how loud it is so I can't say whether that will be an issue but I will be working in the basement often and usually am playing music. They will likely need to install a pump to drain the condensate as well which will add ~$300 to the bill if so and maybe more noise for the pump?

On the other hand if we go in-direct the pellet boiler is going to be firing on and off year round to produce that hot water, and of course will add some heat ot the basement.

I really just don't know what to do.

These things are about as loud as a freezer running because that’s basically what they are. I bet that pellet boiler will make noise too.

Oh and if the noise bothers you you can switch to resistance heat only which is silent but more expensive.

I wouldn’t expect much noise from the condensate pump.
 
How much is it to replace the igniter? Is the basement finished? I think sometimes having a system sit unused for long periods causes just as much wear and using them.

I don’t think there is wrong choice here. But if you are get the heat pump you are essentially taking the heat from pellets and moving into the water in the winter. Seems a bit redundant from an energy point of view. I vote pellet boiler. Not that you asked. Especially so if a second contractor would be needed for the heat pump install.
Evan
 
So that is what makes this hard.
We have the space. Sound, I'm not sure how loud it is so I can't say whether that will be an issue but I will be working in the basement often and usually am playing music. They will likely need to install a pump to drain the condensate as well which will add ~$300 to the bill if so
I really just don't know what to do.
I can barely hear my GE standing right next to it. About as loud as a refrigerator or freezer. I have 4 (2Ref and 2Fr.) of those in my bar area right behind me and cant hear any of them. Not sure why it would cost $300 for condensate pump ,i routed mine into my sump or it can go into any drain. Plus i love the double duty i get from the de-humidification benefit of the HPWH.
 
If you have a place for the HPWH that you can tolerate the noise and height then yes, I would get that. The HPWH allows the use of onboard resistance elements as well as the heat pump. I would probably have one if not for the size of those things and the noise.

I like my super simple 329$ rheem electric water heater in a closed closet. Zero maintenance, silent, no condensate drain, and it's actually cheap to run with our 11 cent electricity.
The closer to the dam the better. I love the BPA rates.
 
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So that is what makes this hard.

We have the space. Sound, I'm not sure how loud it is so I can't say whether that will be an issue but I will be working in the basement often and usually am playing music. They will likely need to install a pump to drain the condensate as well which will add ~$300 to the bill if so and maybe more noise for the pump?

On the other hand if we go in-direct the pellet boiler is going to be firing on and off year round to produce that hot water, and of course will add some heat ot the basement.

I really just don't know what to do.

Not sure if you made a decision on this yet, but here is my input as someone who has owned the setup you're considering, pellet boiler with HPWH:

The pellet boiler will make the basement almost unbearably hot in the summer if you run it year round. My first summer after installing it I didn't realize I could shut it down in the summer and ran it about halfway through the summer before realizing that. The basement was HOT, really hot and some of that heat did rise into the first floor too.

The HPWH worked really well in our house and since we installed solar PV, it made a lot of sense since we were making the energy to run the water heater from the solar. If you have any future plans to install solar, this should sway your decision toward the HPWH.

Here are a few things to be aware of using the HPWH and shutting down the pellet boiler for the summer:
I had a MeSys boiler (rebranded Okofen for the US market) which had an ash auger that would push the ash over into an ash canister and would compress it so that you only had to empty the bucket 3-4 times per season. One issue I had a couple times was that after a summer being shut down, when I went to fire up the boiler at the start of the next heating season the ash that had been sitting in the auger tube had hardened into a concrete like consistency. It was so hard that the auger could not turn, which it tried to do as part of the normal system checks on startup, so it shut down and said the ash bucket was full even though it was empty. It was sensing the resistance on the auger which was stuck fast. Not a big deal to fix, I just had to chip the hard ash out of the tube and the ball valve on the ash bucket with a hammer and awl. One way to avoid this would be to get an ash vacuum and vacuum all the ash out of those areas shortly after shutting the boiler down for the summer.

As for the HPWH, if you have a very cold, drafty basement, it may rely mostly on the electric elements in the winter which will be more expensive, but again, if you plan to install solar PV, you can plan for that by oversizing the solar system a bit to account for the electric usage increase.

I hope this is helpful.
 
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HPWHs are also nice when you're grid is down and you're relying on backup power. As long as you operate them in the HP only mode they don't pull nearly as much peak power as an electrical resistance WH, like 10 times less.
 
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