Thanks for replying. If you would have reread the posts you would see I only have 5 inches of clearance to the beam. We are trying to work that problem out. Hopefuly Elk or Goose or someone will answer my questions soon as I spent all this money on the furnace add on and managed the impossible to get it down into my basement and If I can't make this work I am going to go loco. I am losing sleep on this one. Thank again guys.
Double wall black pipe distance from Wood floor ????????
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babalu87
New Member
You could suspend a heat shield in addition to the double wall pipe?
Suspended on 1" metal blocks maybe???????????????? Elk?
Suspended on 1" metal blocks maybe???????????????? Elk?
Roospike
New Member
supended heat shield the NFPA will only allow up to 12 " to clearances. I have a suggestion it is streching code and I hesitate to type it here fearing I will be crusified for suggesting it
But it would solve the problem. and be safe
But it would solve the problem. and be safe
let the hoots begin but here goes Liner insulation has zero clearance when wrapped 1/2" or more it meets Ul 1777
so get a piece of flex liner and wrap it in UL approver 1777 insulation tight to the chimney connextion and if a code offical questions it produce the UL 1777
listing for zero clearance Yo will only have to wrap all pipe that is within 18" do 20 or the width of the insulation bat you also have clearances to ducts wrap I see.
I have been at a demo where the stove was roaring hot yet when I grabed the insulated pipe it was only midely warm under 100 degrees I suggest using satinless steel liner becauce I do not know what the insulation will do to common mild 24 gage steel the insulation is made to wrap the stainless steel liner to obtain the UL listing 1777
so get a piece of flex liner and wrap it in UL approver 1777 insulation tight to the chimney connextion and if a code offical questions it produce the UL 1777
listing for zero clearance Yo will only have to wrap all pipe that is within 18" do 20 or the width of the insulation bat you also have clearances to ducts wrap I see.
I have been at a demo where the stove was roaring hot yet when I grabed the insulated pipe it was only midely warm under 100 degrees I suggest using satinless steel liner becauce I do not know what the insulation will do to common mild 24 gage steel the insulation is made to wrap the stainless steel liner to obtain the UL listing 1777
babalu87
New Member
Thanks for the replies.
Ok Elk I think I need an interputer for you reply
so if someone wants to do that I would appreciate it.
Here is what I am understanding.
1. I take a piece of standard black pipe and put it in the thimble hole flush with the clay liner and leave a couple inches sticking into the box area.
2. I put my adjustable length 12-18 dBl wall piece on that and my dbl wall elbow.
3. I put a piece of 316T chimney liner over that 12-18 inches of adjustable and the dbl elbow and then wrap that in 1/2 insulation??
4. How about cutting some of the beam out so its 6 inches also?
5. I could add some micore or durarock to the inside of the box as well?
How does that sound?
Ok Elk I think I need an interputer for you reply
so if someone wants to do that I would appreciate it.Here is what I am understanding.
1. I take a piece of standard black pipe and put it in the thimble hole flush with the clay liner and leave a couple inches sticking into the box area.
2. I put my adjustable length 12-18 dBl wall piece on that and my dbl wall elbow.
3. I put a piece of 316T chimney liner over that 12-18 inches of adjustable and the dbl elbow and then wrap that in 1/2 insulation??
4. How about cutting some of the beam out so its 6 inches also?
5. I could add some micore or durarock to the inside of the box as well?
How does that sound?
stick a single wall pipe in the cemnet all the way in to the flue line and leave 1.5 or 2" beyond the bricks for the connectionof the stainless steel liner pipe The only other black pipe you may need is for the flue collar to the stainslless steel liner to the stove collar you may need a support strap made out of common sheet metal
When you attach the stainless steel liner to the common flue pipe sticking out the outlet hole, gasket cement the pipe sticking out and the inside of the liner pipe 3 sheet metal screws equally spaced and with gloves on gasket cement the stainless pipe to the bricks it should now be touching. You could use that stailless all the way to the flue collar. You may need a center support a metal like cuct suport strap screwed into the joist above and to the flex liner. You need to use liner insulation up to 18" away from the wood beam. Do not cut the beam there is no need to.
That insulation gives you zero clearance. You may need wire or clamps to hold the insulation in place wrapped around the pipe. Once you are past the criticle 18", you can go back to black pipe and elbows, if you wish, all the way to the stove flue collar.
Your clearance issue dissapeared behind the Ul 1777 lable. The issue is a done deal
When you attach the stainless steel liner to the common flue pipe sticking out the outlet hole, gasket cement the pipe sticking out and the inside of the liner pipe 3 sheet metal screws equally spaced and with gloves on gasket cement the stainless pipe to the bricks it should now be touching. You could use that stailless all the way to the flue collar. You may need a center support a metal like cuct suport strap screwed into the joist above and to the flex liner. You need to use liner insulation up to 18" away from the wood beam. Do not cut the beam there is no need to.
That insulation gives you zero clearance. You may need wire or clamps to hold the insulation in place wrapped around the pipe. Once you are past the criticle 18", you can go back to black pipe and elbows, if you wish, all the way to the stove flue collar.
Your clearance issue dissapeared behind the Ul 1777 lable. The issue is a done deal
Thanks Elk that is more understandable.
So I need 6 inch round liner and some 1/2 insulation and a couple feet of regular black pipe?
Will my insurance guy understand why I don't have regular pipe?? Will he have a problem with the flexible pipe??? Flex pipe is ok to use inside the house as well. i have never seen it done.
Also I am in MN not sure if code is different here.
Thanks
So I need 6 inch round liner and some 1/2 insulation and a couple feet of regular black pipe?
Will my insurance guy understand why I don't have regular pipe?? Will he have a problem with the flexible pipe??? Flex pipe is ok to use inside the house as well. i have never seen it done.
Also I am in MN not sure if code is different here.
Thanks
Roospike
New Member
stainless steel is far mor durable that common 24 gage connector pipe I doubt with zero clearance insulation and the ul 1777 listing as such, that you will
have any problems with code compliance. Me. I would try to use the liner pipe all the way if I could.
have any problems with code compliance. Me. I would try to use the liner pipe all the way if I could.
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
The only question I would have is how tight a bend is the SS liner able to make? I haven't really played with any, but I gathered the impression that it would have a pretty wide bend radius. Otherwise it would sound like a winner....
Gooserider
Gooserider
[quote author="Gooserider" date="1172138652"]The only question I would have is how tight a bend is the SS liner able to make? I haven't really played with any, but I gathered the impression that it would have a pretty wide bend radius. Otherwise it would sound like a winner....
Thanks for the reply.
Well Goose has a point here. I measured the distance from the wall to the furnace and there is 20inches between them. What is not shown in the photos (one with my son holding pipe) is that there is a heat duct coming out also. I have it removed so i can work in there but it definately comes into play. I would really hate to order 3 feet of this stuff at $40-50 a foot and be stuck with it.
1. I don't want to be cheap but I have all the soild black pipe and double wall I need already paid for in my basement right now. Can't I just cut 2 inches out of that beam and be done with it???
2. Then Could I wrap some insulation around the double wall to cut down on the heat build up in the boxed in area???
3. Also would adding some of the Micore or durarock after I cut the beam help too?? can I get that at HD? would I put it right on the wood or space it out an inch. Then Is the clearance measured from the beam or the Micore?
Thanks for the reply.
Well Goose has a point here. I measured the distance from the wall to the furnace and there is 20inches between them. What is not shown in the photos (one with my son holding pipe) is that there is a heat duct coming out also. I have it removed so i can work in there but it definately comes into play. I would really hate to order 3 feet of this stuff at $40-50 a foot and be stuck with it.
1. I don't want to be cheap but I have all the soild black pipe and double wall I need already paid for in my basement right now. Can't I just cut 2 inches out of that beam and be done with it???
2. Then Could I wrap some insulation around the double wall to cut down on the heat build up in the boxed in area???
3. Also would adding some of the Micore or durarock after I cut the beam help too?? can I get that at HD? would I put it right on the wood or space it out an inch. Then Is the clearance measured from the beam or the Micore?
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
I don't know the answer on the rest of it, but I would be inclined to say that cutting a beam is a REALLY, REALLY, BAD idea! The rules on cutting or drilling beams and joists are really strict and with good reason since doing it wrong can cause major structural damage... In general, the loads on a beam concentrate on the top and bottom edges (this is why steel I beams are shaped that way) so cutting is particularly a no-no.
I'm hoping Elk will answer on the idea of using Micore - this is not the way it is normally used, so I have NO idea if it would work or not, but it was something that occurred to me as an alternative to your idea of bricking over the beam. Micore is one of the materials that can be used when building a hearth pad to go UNDER a stove when it's being placed on a wooden floor. It is a bit hard to find (Home Despot does NOT carry it!) but it has the best insulative value per inch / thickness of any of the common hearth pad materials. If you do a search for "Micore sources" on the forums you should find a fairly recent thread that talks about where to get it. What I don't know is how it would be applied, or if it would work in a situation like this...
I have an idea about how *I* would do a micore shield, but I don't know if it would meet code or not - I'm going to mention it here, but purely as speculation in hopes that Elk will say if it would pass or not. I would box the beam with two layers of 1/2" Micore, with a layer of 24 or 26g sheet metal between them, fastening the Micore to the beam, and extending the shield at from where it comes out of the wall to at least two or three feet past the area needing protection, and cover the outer layer with a second layer of sheet metal. My theory is that the Micore would keep heat from reaching the beam, (R-value 2.2 for 1" of Micore) and the sheet metal would dissipate any heat that did penetrate so as to eliminate "hot spots" If used for a hearth pad, it would need a covering layer of Durock and tile to support the stove, etc. but it would greatly exceed any requirements I'm aware of. However I don't know what the rules are on using Micore to protect an overhead structure. I would keep all fasteners out of the areas near the pipe. I would use double wall pipe with the appropriate mfgr thimble sleeve to go into the chimney.
Hopefully Elk could comment on this idea, or give us a better idea of the bend radius of the chimney liner he suggested.
Gooserider
I'm hoping Elk will answer on the idea of using Micore - this is not the way it is normally used, so I have NO idea if it would work or not, but it was something that occurred to me as an alternative to your idea of bricking over the beam. Micore is one of the materials that can be used when building a hearth pad to go UNDER a stove when it's being placed on a wooden floor. It is a bit hard to find (Home Despot does NOT carry it!) but it has the best insulative value per inch / thickness of any of the common hearth pad materials. If you do a search for "Micore sources" on the forums you should find a fairly recent thread that talks about where to get it. What I don't know is how it would be applied, or if it would work in a situation like this...
I have an idea about how *I* would do a micore shield, but I don't know if it would meet code or not - I'm going to mention it here, but purely as speculation in hopes that Elk will say if it would pass or not. I would box the beam with two layers of 1/2" Micore, with a layer of 24 or 26g sheet metal between them, fastening the Micore to the beam, and extending the shield at from where it comes out of the wall to at least two or three feet past the area needing protection, and cover the outer layer with a second layer of sheet metal. My theory is that the Micore would keep heat from reaching the beam, (R-value 2.2 for 1" of Micore) and the sheet metal would dissipate any heat that did penetrate so as to eliminate "hot spots" If used for a hearth pad, it would need a covering layer of Durock and tile to support the stove, etc. but it would greatly exceed any requirements I'm aware of. However I don't know what the rules are on using Micore to protect an overhead structure. I would keep all fasteners out of the areas near the pipe. I would use double wall pipe with the appropriate mfgr thimble sleeve to go into the chimney.
Hopefully Elk could comment on this idea, or give us a better idea of the bend radius of the chimney liner he suggested.
Gooserider
Ccutting the beam and reducing support is not an option. They do make stainless steel elbows that fit with the kiner to help with the transition and radius
issue again wrap it in the zero clearance liner wraping w and move on. No this is not going to be cheap, when compared to plain black wall pipe.
Cheap has nothing to do with being 5" from combustiables. I promise to look up the parts and give an estimate of cost some time today or tonight
I gave yo a simple solution why confuse it with variables the insulation is only specified with liner pipe use I do not know if it is listed to cover single wall 24 gage pipe
since stainless steel is a much more durable product it has been tested with insulation to hold heat . Mild 24 gage steel works because it dissipates heat,
it is not designed or tested to have heat trapped in by insulation. The heat could build up and blow the snap seam apart.
issue again wrap it in the zero clearance liner wraping w and move on. No this is not going to be cheap, when compared to plain black wall pipe.
Cheap has nothing to do with being 5" from combustiables. I promise to look up the parts and give an estimate of cost some time today or tonight
I gave yo a simple solution why confuse it with variables the insulation is only specified with liner pipe use I do not know if it is listed to cover single wall 24 gage pipe
since stainless steel is a much more durable product it has been tested with insulation to hold heat . Mild 24 gage steel works because it dissipates heat,
it is not designed or tested to have heat trapped in by insulation. The heat could build up and blow the snap seam apart.
Thanks elk. Please do look up those prices for me.
Well the whole idea of the ss making the corner bend between the furnace and the wall has not been addressed yet. I would hate to order this and be stuck with it because it would not make the corner. It is 10 inches from the Thimble hole to the edge of the wall then ther is 21 inches between the wall and the furnace. I have never used this SS flex and have no idea if it would make that corner. Also if it did it may be touching the furnace.
1. Can it touch the furnace??
2. Is there and option of using a SS T at the corner between the wall and furnace could it be wraped to make zero clearance standards as well??
Thanks
Well the whole idea of the ss making the corner bend between the furnace and the wall has not been addressed yet. I would hate to order this and be stuck with it because it would not make the corner. It is 10 inches from the Thimble hole to the edge of the wall then ther is 21 inches between the wall and the furnace. I have never used this SS flex and have no idea if it would make that corner. Also if it did it may be touching the furnace.
1. Can it touch the furnace??
2. Is there and option of using a SS T at the corner between the wall and furnace could it be wraped to make zero clearance standards as well??
Thanks
I called around on pricing for the SS flex and they told me that it does not have a zero clearance unless its inside a chimney and that my best bet was to go with a actual chimney pipe that is insulated like "superpipe" for making an exterior chimney that runs up the side of your house, that has a 2 inch clearance. Problem there is they dont make a 90 deg angle so i cannot make my corner.... also its very heavy and hard to support. Thoughts??
Roospike
New Member
Correct , no 90° pipe on class A stainless steel pipe double wall pipe. They have a "T" but no 90°'s and that pipe is what about 9" across on the outside / 6" on the inside.
Yep I picked up some supervent class A chimney pipe today (The shinney heavy stuff) I think it will work for my situaton. My only question is it says it has a 2" clearance on the pipe and T but the cap on the T is not insulated does the cap have a 2" clearance as well. I would think they would say it doesn't if it were the case. So if youlook back at the photos I will have a 12" piece coming from the thimble and then the T and them standard black pipe down to the stove. Sound good??? My biggest concern now is supporting the weight of the class A pipe.
Roospike
New Member
You said "thimble" ...did you install a concrete thimble or are you calling the hole in the wall a thimble ?
I ask because you say your going to put the "T" on a 12" piece , so what IS the 12' piece ?
I ask because you say your going to put the "T" on a 12" piece , so what IS the 12' piece ?
Roospike
New Member
Anybody know if a class A "T" can be sideways or upside down at around 45° to be installed?
The clean out hole on the bottom of the "T" is just that , a clean out and its well under the direction of the smoke / gas and heat ........but what if its upside down or sideways , is the "T" clean out cap sealed? I dont think its insulated.
The clean out hole on the bottom of the "T" is just that , a clean out and its well under the direction of the smoke / gas and heat ........but what if its upside down or sideways , is the "T" clean out cap sealed? I dont think its insulated.
Thanks for the replies.
I am putting a piece of standard black pipe into the hole flush with the clay liner and a few inches of the crimped end sticking into the house.
Then slide a piece of 12 inch stainless insulated class A onto that piece of crimped end sticking out the hole..
Then the T will be horizontal attached to that piece so that if you took the cap off (which is not insulated) and looked straight in the T you would be looking straight in through the thimble hole.
The T states on its sticker that its good for 2 inch clearance. i would think it would say otherwise if it wasn't so. Please correct me if you know otherwise. Here is a diagram.
Thanks guys.
Clay Chimney liner l black pipe l 12" class A ss insulated l Class A SS insulated T l cap end of T
..................................................................................................l..........l...........................
..................................................................................................l..........l........................... ..................................................................................................l..........l...........................
....................................................................................................Stove .............................
.....................................................................................................here................................
I am putting a piece of standard black pipe into the hole flush with the clay liner and a few inches of the crimped end sticking into the house.
Then slide a piece of 12 inch stainless insulated class A onto that piece of crimped end sticking out the hole..
Then the T will be horizontal attached to that piece so that if you took the cap off (which is not insulated) and looked straight in the T you would be looking straight in through the thimble hole.
The T states on its sticker that its good for 2 inch clearance. i would think it would say otherwise if it wasn't so. Please correct me if you know otherwise. Here is a diagram.
Thanks guys.
Clay Chimney liner l black pipe l 12" class A ss insulated l Class A SS insulated T l cap end of T
..................................................................................................l..........l...........................
..................................................................................................l..........l........................... ..................................................................................................l..........l...........................
....................................................................................................Stove .............................
.....................................................................................................here................................
I have found out at the selkirk web site that they do make an insulated T plug so that should take care of any issues, now if I can find a place to order one!! Anyone on here a dealer PM me.
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