E-mail to VC about Everburn opperations

[elkimmeg]

I sent this e-mail to the head of VC opperations in Vermont Hopefully he will respond.
I have no experience opperating an everburn non cat stove and have had a few PM's I cannot answer .

XXXX: I noticed the re-certification dates of stoves Did CFM allow the Cat Encore certification expire in Sept.?

Also noted the non Cat Defiant is not on the list yet?

The everburn technology in the dutchwest stoves is getting hammered. Currently on the forum over 2300 viewers have viewed the post. Conclusions are being drawn that the stoves are finicky to operate. Coincidently Cat stoves are being praised for easy of operations. Is it true when the damper is activated there is a noticeable rumble? Is this normal. Questions are being asked at what temperatures should the stove operate at for best results. There is concern and discussion of close to run away fires.

Please review this link particularly pages 4 and 5 and if you could e-mail me some observations or recommendations. Better yet join the forum and post a response.. IT is easier to do damage and image control before it gets out of hand. Which it is headed that way. This would be the best time to step in and reassure VC is listening and is concerned. You could turn this into a positive experience. . I would step in but I do not have the experience operation the new everburn stoves. I have nothing to draw from. I might remind VC /CFM 2.5 million visitors view this site or more a year. We have active participation from Englander. That participation has gained a much higher level of acceptance for their stoves.
Here is the link

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/4188/

 

[elkimmeg]

I received a response

Good afternoon Elk, the Encore cat has been certified with EPA until
Sept 2011, the Defiant Non-cat just has not been added to the list by
EPA; it is a fully-certified stove with them.....I have asked our
engineers to review your note and provide me a response....thank you for
the info....hope the wood is holding up and the house is cozy.....your
friend, xxxx

 

[Corie]

Hey elk, wanna ask them about the aspen for me? hah


oh and ask if they need an engineer! lol

 

[elrack]

I own a everburn fireplace and have the same questions regarding operation. I have no idea what is supposed to be a good burn and I have got no help from VC or my installer on this.

 

[elkimmeg]

Well you may get you chance. VC is going to be monitoring the Hearth

The head of Vermont opperations has sent a memo to his engineering dept to participate in the discussions here

cut and paste of the memo as sent to me

"Subject: FW: Up date

Mark, was the Encore cat recertified with EPA in Sept?....please review
the comments of Don and see if you can provide him a response....Todd,
you may want to visit this site for info on what is being discussed
regarding our stoves and competitors...a number of manufacturers are now
participating on this site....dale"


Get your questions ready

 

[jqgs214]

Elk,

Let us know what his screen name is as soon as he signs on. I'm sure hes gonna get overwhelmed at first

 

[mikeathens]

Yes...as I have stated in the past, the stove is majorly finicky. This morning, when reloading for the day before I went to work, out of the blue - 700 F SURFACE flue temp (that's like 1300 - 1400 F internal) and 550 stove surface temp. I was sitting there with a fire extinguisher waiting for the worst - only settled down after I completely shut the primary air - then it turned into a major smokey chimney and the flue surface dropped to 250 F. I give up. Unless VC can tell me what's happening, this stove is gone. I have already had discussions with the dealer and I will probably be moving to a Hearthstone Heritage. Hope VC can give a good answer...

 

[sstanis]

A stove is kinda like a new marriage. No matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, things do not work out like you envisioned. Over time as you tinker and learn the ropes, things get better, albeit with some set-backs.

 

[elkimmeg]

did you know it is common to get 1700 degrees in the secondary combustion chamber

 

[mikeathens]

though 1700 may be appropriate for the combustion chamber, I don't think it is for the chimney. Or is it? If someone (ie VC engineer - this is pointed at you) can't tell me that 700 F surface/1400 F internal flue temp measured 2 feet above the flue collar on a large dutchwest non-cat is "acceptable" or "normal", then I'll opt on the safe side of 500 or less surface. They don't put the "too hot" range on those thermometers for show...

And as I have stated numerous times in other posts, if this is NOT normal, then VC should be very concerned about their customers' well-being and issue a recall or technical bulletin to assist us (assistance would be appreciated). I am still convinced that my surface flue temp climibing from 450 F to 700+ F with the damper closed is a serious safety/fire issue. Until I hear otherwise from someone with design AND operations expertise with the everburn system that it is not, my quest to rid myself of this thing will continue. I would advise anyone considering one of these stoves to take a really good look at comments that others have. VC has not cared enough to provide knowledgeable technical people at an easily reached phone number, so the experience of dutchwest non-cat stove owners is the best bet we have. Even the dealers I have talked to are amazed at how much I have learned from these posts and have admitted that VC doesn't provide them with any meaningful operating advice on the stoves they sell (particularly the non-cat models with everburn). So again...VC engineers and testing people, let's hear what you have to say!! AND FAST!

 

[Andre B.]

The head of Vermont opperations has sent a memo to his engineering dept to participate in the discussions here

A memo from the boss encouraging engineers to surf the web.
Can I have you contact my boss?

 

[Shane]

Mike from Athens

Can't speak for a VC but I've been burning the Leyden (very similar to VC Encore NC) I burn that thing between 500 & 800 stove top temp. I would venture to say that the VC should be run in the same range. I don't even bother to engage the secondary burn system until I have 800-1100 in stack temp. I get good efficient burns with little smoke exiting the chimney. When secondary burn is engaged I see the stack temp routinely drop below 300. I will more than likely install the Encore NC that I have on the showroom floor in August of 07. I'll get really familiar with the burn at that point. I know that I do not meet your requirements for design and operations expertice but since it's an open forum you get my .02 anyway.

 

[Corie]

It sure would be nice for vermont castings to list some hard and fast temperature guidelines in their manuals. I understand that air settings will result in different levels of burn in different installations, but the temperatures of say, the stovetop, stack, etc as guidelines would be nice.

Similarly, it sure would be helpful whether they would also describe the operation of the everburn and whether the rumbling noises are normal. ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR maybe they could just answer this customers questions, rather than referring them back to a dealerthat has probably never lit a fire in the stove anyway.

 

[mikeathens]

Mike from Athens

Can’t speak for a VC but I’ve been burning the Leyden (very similar to VC Encore NC) I burn that thing between 500 & 800 stove top temp. I would venture to say that the VC should be run in the same range. I don’t even bother to engage the secondary burn system until I have 800-1100 in stack temp. I get good efficient burns with little smoke exiting the chimney. When secondary burn is engaged I see the stack temp routinely drop below 300. I will more than likely install the Encore NC that I have on the showroom floor in August of 07. I’ll get really familiar with the burn at that point. I know that I do not meet your requirements for design and operations expertice but since it’s an open forum you get my .02 anyway.

I would agree...except it's a SURFACE thermometer giving me 700+ on the stack - that the same as 1400 or so on your chimney probe.

 

[sstanis]

Could you describe your set-up. I am assuming that you have a top-vented stove, with x-number of feet. Is the black pipe single or double wall. Then moreso, does the black pipe go straight into the chimmney or does it angle (90 degree elbow). The 700 degree temp, was that on the black pipe or the chimmney portion. Assuming that you have been able to defy a law of physics, your flue temps should be greater than your stove-top surface temps, unless you had a small fire in the black pipe or chimmney, which can then give you a higher reading. To a certain point, double-wall pipe and Class-A chimmney is designed to tolerate small, short lasting fires. Most manufacturers state in their manuals to burn a hot fire for x-number of minutes to create these small fires so large amts of creosote do not accumulate. Small fire with small amt of creosote fuel is safer than large fire with large amt of creosote fuel. Personally I am against single wall pipe, b/c it dissipates too much heat, slowing down exit of exhaust gases. Slowing exit allows for gases to cool, creating more creosote. But that is my opinion. Energy likes to take the path of least resistance, so cannot see how you had a flue greater than your stove-top surface temp without a small fire in the pipe.

 

[Shane]

Got off the phone with VC Tech just now. He advised that you want to maintain a 600 degree stove top temperature and that the flue gas temperature should be the same. That's straight from the horses mouth. Note that flue temperature is with the everburn system engaged with a probe thermometer. So with that being the range that VC suggest then you're right you have a problem with your flue gas temps being too hot. Not hot enough to burn your home down as the connector pipe & chimney can withstand chim fire temps of almost double what your flue gas temps are. I'll go back and carefully re-read the Everburn thread and see if I can help you.

 

[mikeathens]

Could you describe your set-up. I am assuming that you have a top-vented stove, with x-number of feet. Is the black pipe single or double wall. Then moreso, does the black pipe go straight into the chimmney or does it angle (90 degree elbow). The 700 degree temp, was that on the black pipe or the chimmney portion. Assuming that you have been able to defy a law of physics, your flue temps should be greater than your stove-top surface temps, unless you had a small fire in the black pipe or chimmney, which can then give you a higher reading. To a certain point, double-wall pipe and Class-A chimmney is designed to tolerate small, short lasting fires. Most manufacturers state in their manuals to burn a hot fire for x-number of minutes to create these small fires so large amts of creosote do not accumulate. Small fire with small amt of creosote fuel is safer than large fire with large amt of creosote fuel. Personally I am against single wall pipe, b/c it dissipates too much heat, slowing down exit of exhaust gases. Slowing exit allows for gases to cool, creating more creosote. But that is my opinion. Energy likes to take the path of least resistance, so cannot see how you had a flue greater than your stove-top surface temp without a small fire in the pipe.

This is as straight forward a set up you can get. It is detailed in the other everburn thread, but straight up, single wall connector for about 4 feet, ceiling support, then 12 feet of pre-fab selkirk chimney. About 9 feet of that is actually above the roof. No angles. Flue temps are more than firebox when gettin gup to temp, then they will often drop to 250 or so (again with magnetic thermometer - i'm getting a probe shipped to me). Sometimes at these temps, smokey, sometimes not. No apparent rhyme or reason. VC does not say to burn short hot fires, as most others do. The only thing I can figure for my 700+ surface flue temp vs. my 500 stove temp if that draft increases, sucks so much smoke through the secondary combustor, that the chimney connector is then sort of acting as a "trimary" (what's after secondary?) combustor - in otherwords, there is not enough residence time in the secondary and residual smoke is flaring in the connector. But how can I go from too much draft to not enough in a matter of 30 minutes? This morning, it was at 700+ flue with zero smoke, and 30 minutes later, down at 350 with lots of smoke. Again, I give up. I can't deal with the inconsistency. I am not necessarily blaming the stove, nor am I blaming myself. But I AM rether annoyed the VC can't provide me with accurate and detailed operating instructions along with what to expect with normal operation (i.e. noise, smoke, temperatures, what to expect if overfiring, etc.)

 

[Rhone]

I'm wondering if you have a leak at your flue-pipe to stove connector, and like you said you're getting secondary burn happening in your flue.

What makes me think that may be happening is something my wife did. She lit a fire, and the thing was going great but one thing in particular looked really strange. The GLASS was on fire! I'd never seen my glass have flames rising off of it as if it were burning. I found out she hadn't fully latched the door closed, it was open just a hair and what I was seeing was slow fresh oxygen rich air sneaking in the bottom, interferring with the operation of the air wash system so it was mixing smoke, and with the flames & coals it started to burn, heating up the glass even more and eventually the entire glass had secondary burn happening against it and man was the glass hot That proved to me, that you don't need a secondary burn "system" to get secondary burn to occur, you just need an air leak with the right conditions.

Now, if your flue pipe is leaking fresh air, with this everburn chamber you may have a situation you're getting secondary burn happening in your flue pipe and, secondary burn is hot! Hence, causing the extremely high surface flue temps and high probe temps and that would be my guess. Secondary burn is either on or off so you're either having it happen and if in your flue it would cause a rumbling sound (probably sound like a big blow torch) and extremely high temperatures in the flue & surface, or you aren't and wouldn't hear a rumbling sound, your temps would be low, and you'd get smoke out your chimney because your everburn chamber isn't working properly. It would be like a switch, either it's happening and your temps go very high, or it's not and your not temps drop and you get smoke out your chimney, very inconsistent and impossible to control. It sounds like the everburn chamber is reaching the right temps but isn't getting oxygen, the oxygen is coming from a leak in your stove to flue connector and causing secondary burn after the everburn chamber. Look into the everburn chamber's oxygen supply to see it's not obstructed or possibly misaligned. I'm pretty sure it's your oxygen supply in your everburn chamber, or lack of that's causing the problem.

 

[sstanis]

I apologize with my previous post, concerning the temps. Just from looking at there website pictures, it seemed to me the stove was "top-vented" Which made me skeptical about your flue temps. I understand how ever-burn works. However, until I looked at the owners manual, did I realize that the stove is moreso "rear-vented." The skematic (sic) in the owners manual really does not show the break-down of the apparatus. Well, maybe it shows it too well, by showing individual parts. Rather than the system itself. Since I do not own that type of stove, cannot really comment on it, without looking at the guts. Where does the smoke exit once burned through the 2nd chamber does it "dump directly" into vent system. or is it forced upward? sorry if I seem overly curious, just trying to find an answer to your problem.

 

[sstanis]

OK, Looked at your skematic (sic) once again, and the only explanation that I can come up with is too much draft. Seems to me that gases (after 2nd combustion) are feed upwards and travel through a throated plate in the firebox and then vented backward to the venting system. With the throat of the plate towards the front. I would gather that if there is too much draft (won't get into laminar flow), then the heat from the gases has little contact time with the top surface of stove. Also would wonder what the thickness of the cast-iron is: of top-surface plate vs. inner back plate. Is there any that you could remove the "outer back" labeled #34 in the diagram and perform the same burn testing. but in this case remove the stove-top thermometer and place it on the inner back. See what temp diff is like that. If cannot perform bc of clearance issues I understand. Like I said I think it might be too much draft, where the heat from 2nd burn has little contact time with stove top surface. But I could be wrong. But hey I commend you on your option of the Heritage. However, the grass is not always greener on the other side. My heritage has it quirks also. If there is too much "barometric pressure" which impedes draft, heritage does not burn as hot. I guess everyone would want "the perfect wood burning stove" which in its truest sense does not currently exist. yeah I guess if you added some of the features of pellet stoves, boilers, and furnances like combustion fans, forced draft, and the like you would get better consistency. But hey, even they have there problems

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Well you may get you chance. VC is going to be monitoring the Hearth

The head of Vermont opperations has sent a memo to his engineering dept to participate in the discussions here

cut and paste of the memo as sent to me


Get your questions ready

GREAT! im not alone in here another manufacturer! hot diggity dang, now we just need to get the other companies off der butts and into the hearth way to go elk, i for one am thrilled that they would participate!

 

[BurningIsLove]

Hopefully the VC engineers are still subscribing to this thread ( I was travelling w/o internet access so missed this thread at its height).

I would echo Mike's experiences as I described in the other DW threads, there are times when Im sitting by the stove w/ a fire extinguisher at the ready. There are times w/ the air inlet full choked, reburner engaged that my temp readings exceed 600 on the flue pipe, and I cannot do anything to stop it.

My DW 0002479 (large size) is rear exit, about 2' horizontal run through concrete board wall to an interior masonry chimney (concrete block w/ clay liner) , then up two stories with about 5' above the height of the roof, no cap. So a single 90 degree turn up the chimney, no slanted pipes. The flue connector is single walled, although I am working to replace this with a double wall. I have magnetic thermometers on the flue pipe & stove. The wood I burn primarily is dry, well seasoned, hardwoods (red oak, maple, and birch mostly). I can post pics if that is helpful.

I also have a very difficult time w/ my reburner on occasion. After loading new splits (or new fire), air inlet wide open, I leave the bypass open and until both thermometers are around 500-500 and all the splits have caught and are burning well. I close the bypass and hear the rumble almost always. After about 10-30 seconds one of two things happen. The first is that the reburner 'stalls', the rumble ceases, and the flue temp drops from about 550 down to about 250 within 5 minutes or less. At this point the stack smoke returns to brownish, slow & sooty looking. The second case is the rumble remains, the stack smoke is non-existent and clean, temps slowly start to climb at which point I close the primarily air inlet fully. The rumble remains faint but consistent, temps hang around 400-550 depending on where I set the air intake to, the fire is controllable, life is good.

Now sometimes in case two is that the temps don't drop when I choke the primary air inlet. The temps continue to climb and stay elevated for hours and there is nothing to do about it, except one 'emergency brake' I tried successfully. This is to open the clean-out door in the basement one floor directly below the stove, thereby reducing the draft significantly and lowering the temps to safe levels. Once some fuel is expended the door can be closed safely again.

Normally the flue pipe thermometer reads higher than the stove, but not appreciably when the fire is under control and been burning for 2+ hours. Obviously the flue reading is much higher than the stove for a new fire because its closer to real time conditions. When the stove gets out of control, the flue temp is usually 100 degrees hotter than the stove. The rumble appears to originate low in the stove near the back, e.g. the whoosh of air being pulled through the constricted throat area in the back of the primary chamber before the secondary burn chamber. It does not sound like a runaway fire in the flue pipe at all. I'd also note that the operation/ rumble consistency is better when the masonry chimney feels warm to the touch as opposed to stone cold. Also, the rumble never occurs when the bypass is open. If there was a gap in the flue connector/stove fitting, I'd expect to have that runaway fire with the bypass open or closed.

I'd like to hear your comments about this scenario since it's a slightly different setup than Mikes. As other owners have commented, normally the lack of a rumble with the reburner engaged indicates inefficient performance. I will say that when the situation is under control, it's like heaven....10+ hour burn times, clean stack emissions, great quality of heat, fabulous ambience, well designed fan kit. It's just disappointing that achieving that state is difficult and very high maintenance.

 

[Todd]

Could you describe your set-up. I am assuming that you have a top-vented stove, with x-number of feet. Is the black pipe single or double wall. Then moreso, does the black pipe go straight into the chimmney or does it angle (90 degree elbow). The 700 degree temp, was that on the black pipe or the chimmney portion. Assuming that you have been able to defy a law of physics, your flue temps should be greater than your stove-top surface temps, unless you had a small fire in the black pipe or chimmney, which can then give you a higher reading. To a certain point, double-wall pipe and Class-A chimmney is designed to tolerate small, short lasting fires. Most manufacturers state in their manuals to burn a hot fire for x-number of minutes to create these small fires so large amts of creosote do not accumulate. Small fire with small amt of creosote fuel is safer than large fire with large amt of creosote fuel. Personally I am against single wall pipe, b/c it dissipates too much heat, slowing down exit of exhaust gases. Slowing exit allows for gases to cool, creating more creosote. But that is my opinion. Energy likes to take the path of least resistance, so cannot see how you had a flue greater than your stove-top surface temp without a small fire in the pipe.

This is as straight forward a set up you can get. It is detailed in the other everburn thread, but straight up, single wall connector for about 4 feet, ceiling support, then 12 feet of pre-fab selkirk chimney. About 9 feet of that is actually above the roof. No angles. Flue temps are more than firebox when gettin gup to temp, then they will often drop to 250 or so (again with magnetic thermometer - i'm getting a probe shipped to me). Sometimes at these temps, smokey, sometimes not. No apparent rhyme or reason. VC does not say to burn short hot fires, as most others do. The only thing I can figure for my 700+ surface flue temp vs. my 500 stove temp if that draft increases, sucks so much smoke through the secondary combustor, that the chimney connector is then sort of acting as a "trimary" (what's after secondary?) combustor - in otherwords, there is not enough residence time in the secondary and residual smoke is flaring in the connector. But how can I go from too much draft to not enough in a matter of 30 minutes? This morning, it was at 700+ flue with zero smoke, and 30 minutes later, down at 350 with lots of smoke. Again, I give up. I can't deal with the inconsistency. I am not necessarily blaming the stove, nor am I blaming myself. But I AM rether annoyed the VC can't provide me with accurate and detailed operating instructions along with what to expect with normal operation (i.e. noise, smoke, temperatures, what to expect if overfiring, etc.)

I don't have a everburn stove but they are sapose to perform something like a cat stove. What color is your smoke? If it's white and disapates fast, it's actually steam which is a good sign of close to complete combustion. With my bypass open I can achieve those high pipe temps also so I turn down the air some to bring the temp down to about 500. After 15 minutes or so I engage and the pipe temp settles down to 250-300 and my smoke changes from grayish blue to all white steam. After the wood burns down to the coal stage the steam turns to heat waves or nothing at all.

 

[seaken]

Mike from Athens

Can’t speak for a VC but I’ve been burning the Leyden (very similar to VC Encore NC) I burn that thing between 500 & 800 stove top temp. I would venture to say that the VC should be run in the same range. I don’t even bother to engage the secondary burn system until I have 800-1100 in stack temp. I get good efficient burns with little smoke exiting the chimney. When secondary burn is engaged I see the stack temp routinely drop below 300. I will more than likely install the Encore NC that I have on the showroom floor in August of 07. I’ll get really familiar with the burn at that point. I know that I do not meet your requirements for design and operations expertice but since it’s an open forum you get my .02 anyway.

I would agree...except it's a SURFACE thermometer giving me 700+ on the stack - that the same as 1400 or so on your chimney probe.

How did you figure that? You have single-wall steel pipe with a surface temp of 700*F. How does that translate magically to 1400*F? I'd buy 750*F maybe.

In response to your stove surface readings, surface temps on the stove surface will vary depending on where the reading is taken. Also, these consumer temp guages are not exactly fool proof. I have one of these sitting on my DWNC at my store and it reads about 190*F-200*F when there is NO FIRE. I have a technicans tool that reads surface temps. Cost us about $300. I take it to the customers home and we burn the stove together and take readings. I have never had a runnaway stove that wasn't caused by operator choices. Sometimes it just takes awhile to adjust to the conditions. A manufacturer cannot control the draft, fuel, and operator. The operator has to go thru the learning curve.

Admittedly, not many dealers will take the time to go to your house and burn your stove with you. But a few of us do. Sometimes it just takes a little personal attention by the dealerto help solve these problems. And sometimes the answer is to "play with it" more to learn how to control the stove under the unique circumstances of the operator's site. Sometimes there is a problem with the stove. I think the dealer is best suited to solving these problems, not the manufacturer. I do think the manufacturer should be involved in the dialog and I would welcome their participation in these forums. But a competent dealer is better suited to troubleshooting.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Dang, Sean....when U gonna open a store in this area? The dealer I bought from was not only completely unintersted in the install, I had to help them move inventory around their stockroom just to get to my stove.

I admit some of those magnetic thermometers arent worth the metal they're made of, but usually I find mine consistent +/- a certain range. I also have an infrared thermometer that I use to calibrate/corroberate the readings. Even though it maxes out at 420F, the magnetic/infrared are usually within 25 degrees of each other at lower temps.

Im also not sure how a single wall, metallic flue pipe temp (magnetic) of 250-300 can possibly indicate an efficient reburn? From what I understand, the non-cats dont reburn until around at least 700. Granted a magnetic is going to read lower than the internal reburn chamber, I still dont think at such low readings any reburning is going on. When mine reads that low, the stack smoke is dark & sooty. When it reads 400+, then I started getting white/no smoke.