efel wood stove out of control

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alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
Hi all , I'm new to this forum. I Need help, my wood stove is over firing and I'm unable to control the burn-rate, I placed a barometric damper + in-line damper still unable to control the burn. short burn time tree to four hour at the most. I can not place a full load of wood in with out over firing it. this stove is the same has Lennox model Cl2000HT . installation is 6' flu into 8x12 masonry chimney. Thanks for any input.

p.s. It's a cast iron stove and i checked for leaks and I'm unable to find any. HELP!
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
86,546
South Puget Sound, WA
Welcome alfio. Nice stove. Post a picture of the installation if you can. If you can provide us some more info about the installation and stove, that will help us figure out what's up. First would be how are you determining that the stove is overfiring?

How tall is the masonry chimney? When the barometric draft meter was installed, was a draft reading done with a manometer to calibrate the barometric draft regulator? If yes, what was the draft reading?

Can you tell us a bit about how the stove was checked for leaks? Did you check each door gasket with the dollar bill test? Did you also check the ashpan door? Have you closely examined the start-up air control to be sure it is closed off completely when shut? What is the stove's age? What kind of wood are you burning?
 

webbie

Seasoned Moderator
Nov 17, 2005
12,176
Western Mass.
In addition, where are you located?

All this stuff will be important in solving your problem.

At first thought, it seems like the primary and secondary air inlet system should be looked at carefully - perhaps the secondary is "fixed" open by design, but with a strong chimney it may allow too much air in. Also, carefully check the seal of the glass to the door frame.
 

alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
Hi. thanks for your input, I'm a little slow typing but i will try to answer your questions.The stoves is 2 years old this is the only time i have tried to use it steady . the stove is located in the basement , chimney is aprocsemetly 31' tall . the secondary toobs are open all the time ,primery air does not shut all the way,its open about 1/16+there is a nather small hole under the front doorthat stase open, no the damper was not calibrated i ajuste it acording to flu temp obout 300 degrees,and i checked the stove by liting smoldering fire and looked for smoke ,i do smel sum smoke near the side door but can not see any,i replaced glass door gescat .that all i can tell you has for my location i'm in new hampshire.And i did chek the seal on all the doors they are good.And i forgot to tel you i'm on the heist point in my town.
 

Corie

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2005
2,441
Camp Hill, PA
That's a lot of chimney that's for sure. Do you have access to a draft gauge where you could measure the draft force?
 

alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
no i don't have a gauge but i can get one or have sumone do it for me.I'm burning red oak
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
86,546
South Puget Sound, WA
alfio, can we assume that the startup air control on the back of the stove is fully closed after the fire is started?

That is a big tall stack, I also suspect the baro damper is not set correctly. How is the stove overfiring? What indications do you have? Is it glowing red at the back or at the flue connection?
 

alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
Hi craig , I'm trying your suggestion so far so god , loaded the stove whit red oak stove top is at 550 flu at 250 but the barometric is almost all the way open . Don't know if that is efficient running whit that barometric open that mach.
 

alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
BeGreen said:
alfio, can we assume that the startup air control on the back of the stove is fully closed after the fire is started?

That is a big tall stack, I also suspect the baro damper is not set correctly. How is the stove overfiring? What indications do you have? Is it glowing red at the back or at the flue connection?
yes the start up air is shut all the way, i also blocked the secondary tubs whit a plate and drilled a one inch hole on both tubs , to restrict the air and it still is over heating even with the primary closed all the way.I'm thinking that maybe this stove is to efficient and its retaining to much heat , the only way i can control the temp is to blow a fan across the top. the reason i think it is running to hot is that the stove top temp spikes to 900 in the first hour and then it dies down to 350 that's with a full lode of wood and the most i can get out of it is about 3 hours of good heat .
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
86,546
South Puget Sound, WA
Too bad. The mods may have compromised the stove design and now the behavior is going to be hard to predict. The issue could simply be too strong draft.

How is the stove overfiring? By what measures has this been determined?
 

alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
Webmaster said:
For starters, keep the turn damper full open, and adjust the barometric - NOT for stack temp, but to be fairl "light", so it opens often. Keep adjusting it even lighter as long as stove burns too fast.
craig i don't understand it , I run a efel coal stove in the winter in this same chimney and have no problem controlling it with the thermostat control.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
86,546
South Puget Sound, WA
Is the stove on the same flue as the coal stove? Or is it connected to a different flue on the same chimney?

Connecting both stoves to the same flue woud be a code violation. It would likely cause very poor operation of the lower stove due to an already high draft being accelerated by preheating with the coal stove. Does the wood stove work better if the coal stove is not burning?
 

alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
BeGreen said:
Welcome alfio. Nice stove. Post a picture of the installation if you can. If you can provide us some more info about the installation and stove, that will help us figure out what's up. First would be how are you determining that the stove is overfiring?

How tall is the masonry chimney? When the barometric draft meter was installed, was a draft reading done with a manometer to calibrate the barometric draft regulator? If yes, what was the draft reading?

Can you tell us a bit about how the stove was checked for leaks? Did you check each door gasket with the dollar bill test? Did you also check the ashpan door? Have you closely examined the start-up air control to be sure it is closed off completely when shut? What is the stove's age? What kind of wood are you burning?
Hi Smileys,

Here is a picture of my stove and pipe setup.
 

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alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
BeGreen said:
Is the stove on the same flue as the coal stove? Or is it connected to a different flue on the same chimney?

Connecting both stoves to the same flue woud be a code violation. It would likely cause very poor operation of the lower stove due to an already high draft being accelerated by preheating with the coal stove. Does the wood stove work better if the coal stove is not burning?
no smileys the coal stove is not connected at this time i switch pipes in the winter .
 

webbie

Seasoned Moderator
Nov 17, 2005
12,176
Western Mass.
alfio said:
Webmaster said:
For starters, keep the turn damper full open, and adjust the barometric - NOT for stack temp, but to be fairl "light", so it opens often. Keep adjusting it even lighter as long as stove burns too fast.
craig i don't understand it , I run a efel coal stove in the winter in this same chimney and have no problem controlling it with the thermostat control.
Wood is so different from coal....because wood tends to put lots more heat up the flue and therefore sort of feed on it's own (over) draft - whereas coal is more consistent as far as your chimney draft.

After the barometric trials, see if there is a way you can close off about 1/2 of the secondary air - temporarily....and see what this does.
 
E

elkimmeg

Guest
One thing I will bet on ,that installation was never permitted and passed inspection. The two stoves are vented into the same flue. The next closest ash cleanout door on the left is for the other flue the barometric damper has to be set for 05 to .06 draft.The other problem is the other stove even if not opperating is adding air to that flue your thermo above the baro damper is a useless place to determine what is going on in that chimney. How tight is the ash cleanout behind that stove? If the stove is only used in the winter does that mean you use the coal stove in the fall spring or summer? What is you proceedure in switching connections of the coal stove? Secondary air and modification by drilling holes who advised o you of this engineering? What it sounds like is too much air in that chimney from the ash clean out door leaking. or threw the coal stove connected or both. The other factor is draft test and adjust the baro damper, finally it also could be gasket leaks. How new is the stove?
 

alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
Webmaster said:
alfio said:
Webmaster said:
For starters, keep the turn damper full open, and adjust the barometric - NOT for stack temp, but to be fairl "light", so it opens often. Keep adjusting it even lighter as long as stove burns too fast.
craig i don't understand it , I run a efel coal stove in the winter in this same chimney and have no problem controlling it with the thermostat control.
Wood is so different from coal....because wood tends to put lots more heat up the flue and therefore sort of feed on it's own (over) draft - whereas coal is more consistent as far as your chimney draft.

After the barometric trials, see if there is a way you can close off about 1/2 of the secondary air - temporarily....and see what this does.
that makes sense thanks craig
 

alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
Webmaster said:
alfio said:
Webmaster said:
For starters, keep the turn damper full open, and adjust the barometric - NOT for stack temp, but to be fairl "light", so it opens often. Keep adjusting it even lighter as long as stove burns too fast.
craig i don't understand it , I run a efel coal stove in the winter in this same chimney and have no problem controlling it with the thermostat control.
Wood is so different from coal....because wood tends to put lots more heat up the flue and therefore sort of feed on it's own (over) draft - whereas coal is more consistent as far as your chimney draft.

After the barometric trials, see if there is a way you can close off about 1/2 of the secondary air - temporarily....and see what this does.
I tried that all ready with a 1 inch hole on each side still shoots to 700 . this morning sunday the 1st started it up and blocked the secondaries put 4 to 5 pieces of wood let it come up to temp 400 degrees and shut the air control all the way it went up to 450 stove top temp flu was 250 above the barometric , nice purple flames . turned it up to 1/2 open and its running at 570 and 270 respectively no smoke out the chimney even at 450 stove top . Its bin about 1 hour and 40 minutes still sum flames but mostly coals know .
 

alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
[quote author="elkimmeg" date="1175411868"]One thing I cill bet on that installation was never permitted and passed inspection. the two stoves are vented into the same flue. the next closest ash cleanout door on the left is for the other flue the barometric damper has to be set for 05 to .06 draft the other problem is the other stove even if not opperating is adding air to that flue your thermo above the baro damper is a useless place to determine what is going on in that chimney. How tight is the ash cleanout behind that stove? If the stove is only used in the winter does that mean you use the caol stove in the fall spring or summer? what is you proceedure in switching connectrs of the coal stove? Secondary air and modification by drilling holes who advised o you of this engineering? What it sounds like is too much air in that chimney from the sah clean out door leaking of threw the coal stove connected or both. The other factor is draft test and adjust the baro damper finally it also could be gasket leaks how new is the stove?[/quote ]


if you read my previous posting you would know that the coal stove is not connected at this time the pipe is just resting on the wood stove pipe . It makes it easier to change to coal in the winter. Thanks for your concern .
 

webbie

Seasoned Moderator
Nov 17, 2005
12,176
Western Mass.
OK, first of all - Elk - look earlier where he explained that EITHER the coal stove or the wood is installed at one time - the other pipe dead ends. The install otherwise seems OK, although I did not look close.

As far as the burn times, I don't know how familiar you are with burning wood, so at the risk of being obvious, let me suggest some techniques....

It is very difficult to get a long burn soon after starting a fire. Folks who burn overnight, in most cases, have the stove going 24/7 and therefore have some advantages to your description above.

IT IS VERY NORMAL THAT YOUR TYPICAL WOOD BURNS DURING THE DAY ARE FROM 2-4 HOURS IN LENGTH.

This is very different from coal, so although wood stoves CAN produce overnight burns, most of them do so only with some fiddling and with very low heat output. So my first point is that you should become used to daytime burns of 2-4 hours when you are looking to get max. heat out of the stove. During these burns, you don't have to pack the stove - I like to say "3 or 4 splits every couple hours" as a guideline.

Now, coming to the overnight burn - here is where experience rules...

It takes a large bed of coals and a bunch of very decent wood to create an overnight burns in any stove with a relatively small firebox (less than 3 cubic feet). So, assuming you have already been burning wood all day, you'll want to time the burns so that you have ONLY a big bunch of hot red coals at bedtime (say 11PM). At that point, you pack the firebox with every piece you can, selecting the hardest species (oak, for instance) and the best fit.

Then you'll want to burn the stove with the draft full open for 10-20 minutes just to make certain the wood is dried and lit.

After that, turn the draft controls down...in your case all or most of the way - and you should end up with at least a semi-warm stove and some hot coals (when you stir it) 8 hours or so later.

I can't help but think that maybe you have become spoiled by coal!

Another hint - the coals are the longest lasting part of the fire if you use good hard woods. So don't fret if the wood burns fairly quickly...there are still often many hours left with the hot coals.

I hope that helps somewhat.
 

alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
I agree that wood coals will last most of the night , the problem is the heat output is marginal 300 to 150 degrees that's not good enough to heat the house comfortably.
thanks again for your input .
 

alfio

New Member
Mar 31, 2007
153
Here are pictures of stove burning with secondary tubes blocked. a good bed of coals , and three pieces of red oak. You will see three pictures, wide angle high burn, high burn close up and low burn close up. sorry for picture quality don't know how to post a better resolution picture , it looks spectacular in person .

p.s. the stove top temp is 450 flu temp 250 , tubes and ceramic fiber baffle glowing a little red
 

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elkimmeg

Guest
Im puzzled here what do you mean the secondary tubes are blocked? Did you know these tubes are used to burn off exiting smoke that that secondary burn extends the over all burn time and provides a good amount of heat?.. I feel there are other problems that need to be addressed before one redesigns a stove and the way it is susposed to function.
 
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