Electricity Monitors and Installation

[NoGoodAtScreenNames]

Hi,

I currently have solar panels with a good app from solar edge that shows my production in real time. I was looking into getting a whole house energy monitor as well, especially since I’m installing a heat pump and would like to measure when it’s best to use it vs. wood and the legacy oil system we still have as a backup. But I don’t think that a monitor will pay for itself quickly if at all - it’s mostly a gadget for me to play with since I’m a nerd. So I don’t want to spend a lot of money on the gadget.

The Sense with Solar can be pretty expensive. They are installed completely in the electrical panel except for an antennae in a knockout. They would also require getting another 240 breaker to power it. There are cheaper options like Eyedro that mount outside of the main electrical box. But I’m not sure if the design is safe / to code.

They require running CT clamps on the main out of the panel box to the monitor. The monitor then plugs into a standard wall outlet. There are a few concerns I could think of.

- CT clamps getting tugged and yanking on the mains inside the box.

- The low voltage wires for the CT clamps are mixed around with the high voltage wires inside the box which I think is not allowed without some step down transformer.

Mounting the monitor in a safe location right next to the panel and securing the wires may help but I’m guessing it’s not to code?

I guess you could put the monitor in the panel like a Sense, but then for the power supply you’d have to run the wire from the outlet back into the box - which defeats the purpose.

Another option I thought of was to put everything into a large box with an outlet inside and run the CT wires through conduit. But at that point you’re probably better off just paying the money for the monitors that are designed to be inside the box.

Am I thinking about this right? You would think that to sell something that clamps on 200 amp wires that it would have to meet code. Not being an electrician I can’t say that it doesn’t, but I’m very suspicious. Or is there something I’m not think about here that makes this all ok?

EYEDRO-HOME

Eyedro energy cost monitor for homeowners, solar, and grid power metering with your choice of WiFi or Ethernet connectivity. Model EYEDRO-HOME.

eyedro.com

 

[gthomas785]

Is it UL listed? If it is, then install according to the manufacturer's instructions and it is code compliant. If you're worried about tugging wires, run them through a NM cable clamp the same way you secure other wires leaving the panel. Or through a conduit.

There's also the Emporia Vue which is lower cost than sense and also gives you more useful data. It's more work to install since you put a CT on each circuit.

 

[EbS-P]

In think the Emporia Vue would be my choice. There was a pod cast with someone in the company and their round map for home integration is complete with what I think will be some smart panel. The idea would be a complete load management system. They have a car charger too. They measure power at the main and have metal bus bar options.

Smart Home Energy Monitor with 16 50A Circuit Level Sensors | Vue - Real Time Electricity Monitor/Meter | Solar/Net Metering https://a.co/d/ikbJfLK

 

[woodgeek]

I got the Emporia Vue this past summer, installed it myself in 15 minutes and it has been logging ever since. Perfectly satisfied.

It just has a wifi antenna poking out of a knockout.

It helped me find out that some weird LED tubes that I had bought were using about 5X their rated power! Like 150W versus 30W. And had cost me several hundred dollars in kWh over the last 5 years, since I am using them for ambient lighting!

 

[BertP]

Hi,

I currently have solar panels with a good app from solar edge that shows my production in real time. I was looking into getting a whole house energy monitor as well, especially since I’m installing a heat pump and would like to measure when it’s best to use it vs. wood and the legacy oil system we still have as a backup. But I don’t think that a monitor will pay for itself quickly if at all - it’s mostly a gadget for me to play with since I’m a nerd. So I don’t want to spend a lot of money on the gadget.

The Sense with Solar can be pretty expensive. They are installed completely in the electrical panel except for an antennae in a knockout. They would also require getting another 240 breaker to power it. There are cheaper options like Eyedro that mount outside of the main electrical box. But I’m not sure if the design is safe / to code.

They require running CT clamps on the main out of the panel box to the monitor. The monitor then plugs into a standard wall outlet. There are a few concerns I could think of.

- CT clamps getting tugged and yanking on the mains inside the box.

- The low voltage wires for the CT clamps are mixed around with the high voltage wires inside the box which I think is not allowed without some step down transformer.

Mounting the monitor in a safe location right next to the panel and securing the wires may help but I’m guessing it’s not to code?

I guess you could put the monitor in the panel like a Sense, but then for the power supply you’d have to run the wire from the outlet back into the box - which defeats the purpose.

Another option I thought of was to put everything into a large box with an outlet inside and run the CT wires through conduit. But at that point you’re probably better off just paying the money for the monitors that are designed to be inside the box.

Am I thinking about this right? You would think that to sell something that clamps on 200 amp wires that it would have to meet code. Not being an electrician I can’t say that it doesn’t, but I’m very suspicious. Or is there something I’m not think about here that makes this all ok?

EYEDRO-HOME

Eyedro energy cost monitor for homeowners, solar, and grid power metering with your choice of WiFi or Ethernet connectivity. Model EYEDRO-HOME.

eyedro.com

I am under the belief that only circuitry connected to the Mains voltages (110v or 220v) need be UL listed. A clamp on CT is not connected to mains voltages and so would not require UL certification. Am happy to be corrected.

 

[Ashful]

I have four Emporia Vue's, covering the most "interesting" of my seven breaker panels. They work well, and give good data. I have some minor gripes with the app, and method of data retrieval, but they're really trivial.

Fitting one (or two) into a larger panel can be a bit of a thing, I have one panel that's so full of wiring that it was damn near impossible to arrange the Vue's current clamps onto all circuits of interest. They work much better in smaller (eg. 24 slots and under) panels.

Reliable WiFi is required anywhere you have one installed, something to consider if your panel is in a basement or garage.

If anyone from Emporia ever reads this, you guys need to design smaller current clamps!

 

[NoGoodAtScreenNames]

I am under the belief that only circuitry connected to the Mains voltages (110v or 220v) need be UL listed. A clamp on CT is not connected to mains voltages and so would not require UL certification. Am happy to be corrected.

Yeah that would be my question. I have two panels - my old 100 main panel became a sub panel when upgrading to 200. So my loads are split across the panels.

I’d like to see a whole house view but clamping on sensors to each one is not feasible and would require at wire to bridge between the panels (perhaps if in conduit it wouldn’t matter).

The Eyedro doesn’t appear to be somebody selling some invention out of their garage but the I’ve found that the wording on some devices you buy on the internet / Amazon (especially EVSEs) can be a little dodgey. The components could be tested to UL specs but not their end use. I don’t see a clear UL listing from Eyedro, but the Sense manual also has an external mount as an option if there is no room in the panel that seems similar. So maybe it’s not as bad as I would be worried about.

 

[Ashful]

I’d like to see a whole house view but clamping on sensors to each one is not feasible and would require at wire to bridge between the panels (perhaps if in conduit it wouldn’t matter).

If using the Vue, you'd need to buy two units, one for each panel. They're not expensive, in the grand scheme of home stuff.

Also, note that you wouldn't need to monitor every circuit, such as the sub feed for the second panel, as that will be captured by mains input on second panel. You also only need to clamp one leg of balanced 240V circuits, so basically everything 240V other than sub feeds or perhaps a very small error on an electric range that uses a 4-wire feed for clock and oven light.

 

[ABMax24]

I have a Generac PWRView. Actually mine is a Neurio (Generac bought it to add the tech to their products).

It works good, although I think Generac may have discontinued it as a standalone unit, instead offering it as part of their home backup and renewable energy products.

 

[gthomas785]

I am under the belief that only circuitry connected to the Mains voltages (110v or 220v) need be UL listed. A clamp on CT is not connected to mains voltages and so would not require UL certification. Am happy to be corrected.

No. The panel manufacturer gets their equipment listed along with a set of instructions which usually includes not installing any unlisted equipment inside it. It could be listed by any NRTL, it doesn't have to be UL necessarily but it needs to be approved for the use. I've found many products in Amazon that are not listed and simply get away with it because nobody cares or knows to check on it and by the time they get caught they've already made their money.

Besides that, code requires any conductor's insulation to be rated for the maximum voltage present within the enclosure even if they are not carrying that voltage because if they rub out or make accidental contact you would end up energizing them with the higher voltage.

 

[semipro]

It's more work to install since you put a CT on each circuit.

This is an important distinction when compared to the Sense.
I looked into the Sense for our house but the algorithm it uses to identify devices could not discern between two identical water heaters that we had, which was important to our application.
A monitor with a CT on each breaker/circuit would not have that problem although identifying specific devices of interest on a circuit would still be to be done.

 

[gthomas785]

Yes, that's why I think the Vue is a superior product. I have never worked with the Sense but from what I've read it just doesn't collect enough information. Sense is trying to solve an underdefined problem by infering which circuit/appliance is drawing power based on how much power it's drawing, and then reports how much power it thinks that appliance is drawing because of how much power it is drawing. And if the appliance's power draw changes, then the power doesn't get counted for that appliance. Useless.

 

[IDontWantToTell]

I have Emporia Vue. I originally had a TED(The Energy Detective) and it worked but communicated to the main base unit through house wiring and I was always having trouble with it communicating because apparently my house wiring is noisy. Sometimes it would go days without being able to communicate to the base/logging unit and I don't recommend it.

My friends got the Sense and I got the Emporia Vue. I showed them what the Vue could do, and they showed me what the Sense does. It was a very interesting conversation because I was NOT impressed with the Sense. I showed them the Vue and how it blows it away, they were impressed the Sense told them what fridge and washing machine they had... but I thought that was useless I know what I have. But it struggled to detect lower power devices and other devices. I guess the benefit is you don't have a spider web in your panel connecting those little sensors to what you want to monitor like the Vue. But, they were talking to me like the Sense and Vue are equals. To me, it was like me showing them a Lamborghini and them showing me a Ford Escort and how they're equal when the whole time I was thinking thank goodness I didn't get the Sense not even the same ballpark.

After experiencing TED, seeing the Sense, the Emporia Energy Vue I think for the price blows everything away. I especially like that I can get the outlets to monitor individual things if I want. My breaker panel is a Square D and has a ton of space inside it. I had no issues getting the clamps connected with tons of room to spare. My only complaint is, they don't handle moving the individual plug monitoring devices around if you get the plugs. Typically, I use one to monitor my fridge in winter and move that one to the ac in summer but there's no way to move its data nicely on moving. I told them they should fix that.

Compared with the 3 monitoring devices I've seen the Emporia Vue easily wins. The interesting thing(s) I found after using it:
1.) I have a solar hot water heater w/electric backup. I found out after taking our showers in the morning the tank would get cold and the electric backup would kick on to reheat the tank. Then the sun came out, but our tank was now already hot and solar doesn't do much with hot temps. It was costing me over $100/month (my electric was $0.29/kWh now it's $0.43/kWh). To fix I got a timer that would turn on the electric heating element to our solar heated tank between 5pm and 4am only. So, we'd use the tank of hot water in am, the solar would have to heat cold water which it's very efficient at doing while we were away, and at 5pm typically our solar tank would be 130F+. That act of putting a timer on our tank so we let the solar heat it as much as possible before allowing the electric backup saved us over $97+month for a savings of over $1000/yr. It also let me make the decision to use the solar tank as a pre-heater to an oil heated water tank which is my configuration now.

Next was the Verizon TV boxes. I noticed a ton of watts being used in rooms we weren't using as in $33/month for each room x3 rooms for $99/month. I went through the rooms, and as soon as I unplugged the Verizon TV boxes the electric use dropped from $33/month for that room to $2-$4. Dumb thing is, we only watch TV maybe 4x a year yet were paying over $1000 for electricity. The boxes even had 100% mesh on all sides to dissipate heat (so they were aware of the high energy use) and looked like this.

So that saved us over $2000/year in the first week of getting one but I doubt people will have as an extreme case as ours. Both those 2 issues were surprises.

 

[Ashful]

Next was the Verizon TV boxes. I noticed a ton of watts being used in rooms we weren't using as in $33/month for each room x3 rooms for $99/month. I went through the rooms, and as soon as I unplugged the Verizon TV boxes the electric use dropped from $33/month for that room to $2-$4. Dumb thing is, we only watch TV maybe 4x a year yet were paying over $1000 for electricity. The boxes even had 100% mesh on all sides to dissipate heat (so they were aware of the high energy use) and looked like this.

First, totally agreed. The Vue is great in all regards... excepting installation. You will also curse it everytime you need to work inside your panel, but for most people that's not a daily occurrence. I will admit I tore mine out of two panels this summer, doing a bunch of circuit rearrangement, and still haven't gotten back to re-installing them.

But I was real surprised you found that on the Verizon boxes! If it weren't for the fact that they can take damn near forever to reboot and reload after a long time unplugged, I'd probably be running around our house unplugging them now. We have several that only get used a few times per year, but it's not like I know a half hour in advance, when someone might want to use one.

 

[gthomas785]

We have several that only get used a few times per year, but it's not like I know a half hour in advance, when someone might want to use one.

Man, if that were my house I'd be unplugging them and tossing em out the window.

 

[woodgeek]

I noticed my Comcast DVRs were super hot years ago, and updated them for newer units, and then ditched them altogether for streaming.
My Verizon broadband modem seems to be pretty efficient. It can run off a tiny $25 UPS for over an hour, very handy during WFH Zoom sessions.

 

[Ashful]

Man, if that were my house I'd be unplugging them and tossing em out the window.

I'd be with you, if I were the only one living here. They'd be but one item on a very long list of things I'd be without, if I were a bachelor, but honestly... they're hardly the biggest waste of electrons in this house.

My wife insists we still carry "triple play", with full TV service, on-demand, paid channels, and a house phone no one ever wants to answer. I think we're paying close to $300/month for all that, before counting the extra energy wasted on keeping all those boxes warm, I honestly lose track. I do occasionally turn on MeTV in the evening, maybe even a few times per month, but 99% of my absorbed content is streamed, and I'd be quite happy to drop TV service.

 

[gthomas785]

I'd be with you, if I were the only one living here. They'd be but one item on a very long list of things I'd be without, if I were a bachelor, but honestly... they're hardly the biggest waste of electrons in this house.

My wife insists we still carry "triple play", with full TV service, on-demand, paid channels, and a house phone no one ever wants to answer. I think we're paying close to $300/month for all that, before counting the extra energy wasted on keeping all those boxes warm, I honestly lose track. I do occasionally turn on MeTV in the evening, maybe even a few times per month, but 99% of my absorbed content is streamed, and I'd be quite happy to drop TV service.

Who even watches cable TV anymore? I honestly thought it would be 100% ads by now. We have $55 xfinity internet (the only option here) plus netflix and prime video. That's it. Occasionally my wife will subscribe & cancel another service if she wants to watch something.

 

[EbS-P]

Well you have me wanting to dig out my kill a watt meter and see what my modem router and and Amazon dvr are consuming. I’m guessing 200w

 

[Ashful]

Who even watches cable TV anymore?

Not me, but I think a lot of people do.