ELV dimmer recommendations? Smart or not.

[torpesco]

This feels like a bit of a long shot after the internet searches I've done, but does anyone here have any 3-way ELV dimmers they're happy with and would recommend? Seeing the prices, I'm inclined to get smart dimmers. $75 CAD for a Leviton (not smart), $99 CAD for Legrand radiant, $140 CAD for Lutron Caseta.

If I knew about the difference between traditional and ELV dimmers, the price of ELV dimmers, and few of them there seem to be, I think I would have bought different light fixtures.

Has anyone tried any of Legrand's smart switches? I'm leaning towards those so far, but there don't seem to be as many reviews out there as for other brands. I have a regular Caseta dimmer that was solid, but I find them ugly -- and the price of the ELV dimmer seems steep. Maybe I should just play it safe and go the non-smart route, but $75 seems so expensive for a basic dimmer!

 

[fbelec]

hi torpesco i have been using lutron for years. they are a much better dimmer than anything out there. on the other hand i've replaced more just a few year old leviton dimmers. even the leviton switches and outlets don't last more than 10 years without disintegrating. (face falls off or bottom or top outlet comes off but bottom stays leaving the brass) to either short out or someone gets zapped. not sure why you are looking for low voltage dimmers as they are more expensive. the regular dimmer used (elv) type have been very reliable for me. https://www.build.com/lutron-ay-600p/s425709?uid=286920 the paddle type switch used are reliable if installed right and not pushed so hard like you are trying to push it through the wall. the switch breaks on any brand used if treated like that. lutron dimmers, the dimmer usually outlasts the switch. the one like above with the dimmer right next to the switch i find lasts years and not sure what they cost in canada but in the states are around 30 dollars give or take. the skylark dimmer the switch under the slide dimmer usually goes first. the elv type dimmer will work on incandescent, halogen or led bulbs. the only time i have spent over a hundred (and they are getting cheaper) is when i buy a 1000 watt dimmer or the low voltage type used for a electronic ballast type fixture. i think i put in at least one dimmer in every third residential job i do.

 

[fbelec]

i just need to add in one more for lutron. i had a customer out here that was complaining the the switch on her boys room wall was getting hot and she didn't want her 6 year old to touch it. turns out this dimmer was a 600 watt dimmer and when i added up all the lights it was controlling it come out to 1100 watts. it had been that way for 3 years. before i replaced it.

 

[torpesco]

hi torpesco i have been using lutron for years. they are a much better dimmer than anything out there. on the other hand i've replaced more just a few year old leviton dimmers. even the leviton switches and outlets don't last more than 10 years without disintegrating. (face falls off or bottom or top outlet comes off but bottom stays leaving the brass) to either short out or someone gets zapped. not sure why you are looking for low voltage dimmers as they are more expensive. the regular dimmer used (elv) type have been very reliable for me. https://www.build.com/lutron-ay-600p/s425709?uid=286920 the paddle type switch used are reliable if installed right and not pushed so hard like you are trying to push it through the wall. the switch breaks on any brand used if treated like that. lutron dimmers, the dimmer usually outlasts the switch. the one like above with the dimmer right next to the switch i find lasts years and not sure what they cost in canada but in the states are around 30 dollars give or take. the skylark dimmer the switch under the slide dimmer usually goes first. the elv type dimmer will work on incandescent, halogen or led bulbs. the only time i have spent over a hundred (and they are getting cheaper) is when i buy a 1000 watt dimmer or the low voltage type used for a electronic ballast type fixture. i think i put in at least one dimmer in every third residential job i do.

Thanks, @fbelec. I have only limited personal experience, but Lutron are generally my favourite, too. I just wish the Caseta looked nicer. It bugs me that the Maestro smart switches are reserved for the RA2 line.

Anyway... Looking at the spec sheet linked to from that light switch on build.com, it seems like a bunch of their dimmers will work with ELV, with the catch of needing that 'WBX' interface / power module - which seems like a big catch to me, as it needs its own wall box.

We bought a few lights after moving into our home last year, and there are three or four I'd like on dimmers, which all have integrated LEDs & drivers. For instance: https://kuzcolighting.com/product/eerie-pd19347/. The specs for that say it needs an ELV dimmer. Now I see they have a "suggested dimmers" PDF, and it lists a couple non-ELV Lutron dimmers as being compatible. I find that puzzling. I should try a regular dimmer with it. The page that came with the light just said ELV.

This other one, in a powder room, reacted horribly when I tried a Maestro occupancy sensor dimmer switch: https://kuzcolighting.com/product/bute-ws8324/. (Its compatible dimmer switch PDF lists only ELV dimmers.) That was when I learned about MLV vs ELV dimmers and what that actually meant in terms of being leading edge vs trailing edge. It made me wish I'd bought fixtures that took regular A19 bulbs so I could just by Philips LED bulbs.

Now that I've looked up those light references to share, it gives me hope -- it looks like I might be able to use something like
DVCL-153P (only $35 CAD) for two of the lights (and possibly a third). Then I just need an ELV dimmer for the powder room one... if I feel like giving up the occupancy sensing function. Which I might: it's painful to walk in there at night and have the light come on full blast!

 

[Ashful]

Still using the same Lutron electronic dimmers that were installed here nearly 30 years ago. I'm sold.

Our system is 110V electronic dimmers, the low volt transformers are in the fixtures themselves, so perhaps a different system than you're describing. But I won't knock Lutron's quality or design.

The only issue I've ever had with them is they can get wonky and unpredictable when back-feeding my house from a portable genny.

 

[fbelec]

i usually have if possible the customer find a fixture that does take a regular bulb. in doing so the options are open for the type and quality of the led bulb that is put in. i also try to see if they can get CREE bulbs. that company has a very accurate color and quality is second to none. bad thing about a fixture that is led is that one doesn't know about the quality of the led put in. usually the cheapest thing they can get and when it does blow out the whole fixture has to be changed. when it is a bulb you can have that fixture for a while.

CREE bulbs are great. as far as outside flood lights that is what i use and have been for about 6 years and haven't changed one yet.

i also teach each customer about the color of the bulbs. use to be when we bought a bulb (incandescent) we didn't worry about the color because they only came in one color 2700 kelvin halogens are 3000 kelvin when you step up beyond 3500 kelvin the bulb starts to get blue anything bought for the outside is 5000 kelvin my eyes say blue. when you look at them they look brighter but don't go far distance wise. if in the house the walls have to be some sort of white. i made my own driveway light. originally i used 2 27 watt fluorescent bulbs. lasted almost 7 years on all night until sun up the next day. 2700 kelvin. i lit up my driveway which is 2.5 cars deep 4 wide and the driveway across the street and my and their front yards. ( better than the mercury vapor street light ) they blew out and i changed them to 5000 kelvin led. 20 watts a piece. they didn't even make the end of my driveway. those came out the next day and all i did is change the color to 2700 kelvin. same brand name. they lit up everything like the old fluorescents did. so color does matter. our eyes work the best with the color red. 2700 and 3000 kelvin have red in them 5000 kelvin don't.

 

[torpesco]

Our system is 110V electronic dimmers, the low volt transformers are in the fixtures themselves, so perhaps a different system than you're describing. But I won't knock Lutron's quality or design.

Same with ours, yeah - transformers in the fixtures. The MLV or ELV thing is just for compatibility with different types of transformers.

i usually have if possible the customer find a fixture that does take a regular bulb. ...

CREE bulbs are great. as far as outside flood lights that is what i use and have been for about 6 years and haven't changed one yet.

i also teach each customer about the color of the bulbs. ...

Yeah, not counting the LED pot lights, we just got a few integrated fixtures. I'd think carefully before getting one again. I'm pretty happy with them overall, but they're all 3000K, and I would have preferred 2700K for our dining room. I was surprised at the difference between 2700K and 3000K. At our last place we used halogens in the dining room (Philips 72W "ecovantage"), and they seemed closer to 2700K. I loved them. The one time I bought CREE bulbs they buzzed like crazy on a dimmer (Lutron Diva). Maybe when my Philips bulbs die, I'll try them again.

 

[stoveliker]

i usually have if possible the customer find a fixture that does take a regular bulb. in doing so the options are open for the type and quality of the led bulb that is put in. i also try to see if they can get CREE bulbs. that company has a very accurate color and quality is second to none. bad thing about a fixture that is led is that one doesn't know about the quality of the led put in. usually the cheapest thing they can get and when it does blow out the whole fixture has to be changed. when it is a bulb you can have that fixture for a while.

CREE bulbs are great. as far as outside flood lights that is what i use and have been for about 6 years and haven't changed one yet.

i also teach each customer about the color of the bulbs. use to be when we bought a bulb (incandescent) we didn't worry about the color because they only came in one color 2700 kelvin halogens are 3000 kelvin when you step up beyond 3500 kelvin the bulb starts to get blue anything bought for the outside is 5000 kelvin my eyes say blue. when you look at them they look brighter but don't go far distance wise. if in the house the walls have to be some sort of white. i made my own driveway light. originally i used 2 27 watt fluorescent bulbs. lasted almost 7 years on all night until sun up the next day. 2700 kelvin. i lit up my driveway which is 2.5 cars deep 4 wide and the driveway across the street and my and their front yards. ( better than the mercury vapor street light ) they blew out and i changed them to 5000 kelvin led. 20 watts a piece. they didn't even make the end of my driveway. those came out the next day and all i did is change the color to 2700 kelvin. same brand name. they lit up everything like the old fluorescents did. so color does matter. our eyes work the best with the color red. 2700 and 3000 kelvin have red in them 5000 kelvin don't.

This is interesting; I've noticed the same: the bluer the light, the less far I can see. I don't know how the lumen output compares though between the different (color) lights.

I went on a googling exercise to remember cones and rods etc. At night, it's the rods that are active. Of course they are not sensitive to color, but their sensitivity (detection efficiency) does depend on the wavelength of the photons coming in. It appears that the rods are more sensitive to blue and UV and less sensitive to yellow and red. I.e. the opposite of our experience as you described.

The Rods and Cones of the Human Eye

hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu

On another note, the temperature does correlate to the color (the cooler the redder). But different 2700 K bulbs do not deliver the same color experience to the human eye. This is because a "color" temperature scale is based on black body radiation, which is a continuous spectrum of radiation (that does shift to the red when the temperature goes down). Incandescent lights do (nearly) follow this emission spectrum. LED lights try to approximate it using LED output colors (e.g. RGB) and phosphors.

While for outside lights this (to me) does not matter much, for inside, IF you like the yellow incandescent light inside the home, it's good to look at the following: the CRI, or color rendering index. The higher this number is, the better it approximates the black body radiation spectrum. I like a CRI of 90 or 95 or above. 80 and 85 still appear "artificial" to me.

 

[fbelec]

if i come across the article on color i'll post it here. i just went thru a color thing with my son's car. i installed some led for his high beam in a camry. the led's have 3 colors to them 3000k, 4100k and 5000k this company's version of 3000 kelvin is yellow. way more yellow than a incandescent bulb. they call it fog light. i used to have a yellow fog light on my car which was a quartz iodine. great in the fog. those were not as yellow as these lights in 3000k mode their 4100k is more like a halogen. oh also if i come across the article i read saying that the blue led's do irreversible burning of the retina in our eyes i'll post that one here also.
the machine that test lumens, color does not matter to it. so the bluish lamps may have the same lumens as a 3000 kelvin bulb but it doesn't show the distance because our eyes are more sensitive to red tones and once you get past 3500 to 4000 kelvin the red drops out.

 

[Ashful]

if i come across the article on color i'll post it here. i just went thru a color thing with my son's car. i installed some led for his high beam in a camry. the led's have 3 colors to them 3000k, 4100k and 5000k this company's version of 3000 kelvin is yellow. way more yellow than a incandescent bulb. they call it fog light. i used to have a yellow fog light on my car which was a quartz iodine. great in the fog. those were not as yellow as these lights in 3000k mode their 4100k is more like a halogen. oh also if i come across the article i read saying that the blue led's do irreversible burning of the retina in our eyes i'll post that one here also.
the machine that test lumens, color does not matter to it. so the bluish lamps may have the same lumens as a 3000 kelvin bulb but it doesn't show the distance because our eyes are more sensitive to red tones and once you get past 3500 to 4000 kelvin the red drops out.

The trouble is the distribution of the spectrum. Whereas incandescents and halogens have a broad spectrum, LED's are approximating that spectrum with just a few discrete colors. For some people, the cheap trick works well enough, for others not as much. There are likely physiological reasons for that, but I'm not an opthamologist. What's interesting is that the spectral energy density in these three narrow ranges of the band can be very high, I would think the potential for damage is much higher than a broad spread spectrum (eg. halogen or incandescent).

 

[fbelec]

it's not the same article but it's a read. still looking

Chemists discover how blue light speeds blindness

Blue light from digital devices and the sun transforms vital molecules in the eye's retina into cell killers, according to optical chemistry research at The University of Toledo.

phys.org

 

[fbelec]

can't find the article i'm looking for but this is short and sweet

Which Light Color Can Be Seen From The Farthest Distance?

Cool Midweek Fact: Did you know that, in light that is visible, the wavelength of red light is the longest? The light of red color can penetrate to a longer distance than other lights because it is scattered the least by air molecules in the atmosphere and therefore red can actually be seen from...

volt6.com

 

[stoveliker]

I think that last one is about seeing light from miles away, not 50 yards. The mechanism noted (scattering by air) is not going to be a significant difference at shorter distances.

 

[fbelec]

try it yourself put in a 5000 kelvin bulb in a fixture and see how far it goes. then the next night try a 2700 0r 3000 kelvin bulb same wattage or better the same lumens and see. either way 2 miles or 50 yards it's the same thing

 

[fbelec]

i did it and my driveway is 2.5 car lengths not 50 yards

 

[torpesco]

Well I’m happy. Just installed a Lutron Maestro dimmer for the dining room light and it works perfectly. Now if only it was a 2700K light. :-/ Should take the edge off on evenings when we’re a bit tired and don’t feel like being blinded!

If only it hadn’t been the powder room the electrician tried first last year. When that didn’t work, we aborted and didn’t install any. Figures it had to be the cheaper integrated light and the only one to need an ELV dimmer, apparently.