Emergency water repair, PEX option?

[begreen]

We have developed a leak at 3/4" copper elbow at a hard to repair location. This is the second failure in this line. It went in new in 2003, but the plumber was sloppy and did not wipe the joints after soldering. I turned the water off on that line and am now contemplating repair options. Getting this elbow replaced will be difficult as it is very close to two other pipe and an abs drain. I'm tempted to do an epoxy bullet around it, but I know that is a bandaid.

The other option I am considering is bypassing this section of pipe with PEX. However, I have never worked with PEX before and have no tools. There would be two joints: one above the elbow and above the built-in cabinet the 3/4" line runs behind, where I can get access. This would be on a straight piece of pipe. The second joint would be in the crawlspace, on either the straight run of the pipe. For the lower joint, I could solder on a male or female 3/4" threaded fitting if that helps.

What are my options with PEX? I have no PEX tools and it doesn't make sense to do this for two fittings. Do the push fit, slip-on fittings (Sharkbiet or BlueFin) really work and hold dependably forever? Should I look for a compression fittings instead?

Also, the pex line would be run vertically up behind the cabinet and then need to do a 90º turn in the crawlspace to meet the supplying hot water line. Does one put an elbow in the pex or let it make a large sweep 90º turn to eliminate the two extra connections at a pex elbow?

 

[velvetfoot]

I really have no idea, but I'll put down some random thoughts anyway.

• Is it really actually coming from the soldered joint, or did it develop a pinhole from corrosion, or maybe a split from freezing?
• I don't think wiping down a sweated joint makes it seal better
• Did it fail in exactly the same way and location the last time?
• If it really is the soldered joint, I wonder if you could dry out the pipe really well, slather on some flux paste, heat up the joint and try to flow in some solder. I have no idea if this could work.
• I thought PEX used crimp on connectors. Hooking up the heat pump water heater was my first and only foray into PEX. I bought the tool and copper (?) rings from Home Depot. Hasn't leaked.
• I think they have push on connections for copper tubing, but I haven't checked that out.
• Do you have some thermal shielding laying around the house, like a broken stove baffle, or something like that, to shield from the ABS pipe?
• Sharkbite fittings seem to be popular, but I've never used them, and they may not be a 'forever' fix.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

I have no plumbing advice for you, I’m afraid. I thought I’d just offer some sympathy and wish you an otherwise merry Christmas.

My mother just had a plumbing leak which required her to cut off water to her entire house for several days. She had water in her rain barrels, and she boiled it on her woodstove before use. Thankfully a plumber was able to come out before Christmas and get it fixed for her. She does some plumbing herself but doesn’t work with major pipes.

 

[tlc1976]

I had a 3/4 elbow leaking at the water heater at the old house. I just cut it out and used a brass elbow and 2 brass compression fittings. Still wasn’t leaking 16 years later when I sold the place.

 

[bholler]

We have developed a leak at 3/4" copper elbow at a hard to repair location. This is the second failure in this line. It went in new in 2003, but the plumber was sloppy and did not wipe the joints after soldering. I turned the water off on that line and am now contemplating repair options. Getting this elbow replaced will be difficult as it is very close to two other pipe and an abs drain. I'm tempted to do an epoxy bullet around it, but I know that is a bandaid.

The other option I am considering is bypassing this section of pipe with PEX. However, I have never worked with PEX before and have no tools. There would be two joints: one above the elbow and above the built-in cabinet the 3/4" line runs behind, where I can get access. This would be on a straight piece of pipe. The second joint would be in the crawlspace, on either the straight run of the pipe. For the lower joint, I could solder on a male or female 3/4" threaded fitting if that helps.

What are my options with PEX? I have no PEX tools and it doesn't make sense to do this for two fittings. Do the push fit, slip-on fittings (Sharkbiet or BlueFin) really work and hold dependably forever? Should I look for a compression fittings instead?

Also, the pex line would be run vertically up behind the cabinet and then need to do a 90º turn in the crawlspace to meet the supplying hot water line. Does one put an elbow in the pex or let it make a large sweep 90º turn to eliminate the two extra connections at a pex elbow?

Yes sharkbites etc work. I have used many and never had an issue. But I do generally try to keep them outside the wall.

 

[begreen]

Yes sharkbites etc work. I have used many and never had an issue. But I do generally try to keep them outside the wall.

That's good, it would be the safest and easiest repair. Agreed. I want to be able to keep an eye on the fittings. I can sort of do that. The cabinet is custom-made and we designed it with a removable top for just this circumstance. That would give me access in the event of a future failure. In the crawlspace they can remain exposed. This is an insulated, closed crawlspace so they are not exposed to outdoor temps. Should I put in two 90º at the turn into the crawlspace or just do a gentle sweep 90 with no fittings?

 

[velvetfoot]

They have short sections in my HD. Like 10' or so.

 

[bholler]

That's good, it would be the safest and easiest repair. Agreed. I want to be able to keep an eye on the fittings. I can sort of do that. The cabinet is custom-made and we designed it with a removable top for just this circumstance. That would give me access in the event of a future failure. In the crawlspace they can remain exposed. This is an insulated, closed crawlspace so they are not exposed to outdoor temps. Now I have to find out if I can buy a reasonable length of PEX. I don't want or need a 100' roll.

We can buy 5' 10' and 20' sticks here. I would bet you can do the same.

 

[begreen]

I had a 3/4 elbow leaking at the water heater at the old house. I just cut it out and used a brass elbow and 2 brass compression fittings. Still wasn’t leaking 16 years later when I sold the place.

Unfortunately I don't know where the leak is yet. I am just seeing the drip at the lowest point. The rest is either hidden behind the cabinet or in a very hard place to see.

• Is it really actually coming from the soldered joint, or did it develop a pinhole from corrosion, or maybe a split from freezing?
• I don't think wiping down a sweated joint makes it seal better
• Did it fail in exactly the same way and location the last time?
• If it really is the soldered joint, I wonder if you could dry out the pipe really well, slather on some flux paste, heat up the joint and try to flow in some solder. I have no idea if this could work.

The exact location of the new leak is unknown at this point. I suspect it is in the cold water line this time, heading to the upstairs bathroom. The previous leak was in an elbow up higher in the hot water line. It was a pinhole leak in the crook of the elbow, away from the solder joints. Flux should always be wiped away after soldering. It is corrosive over the long term. All piping is within the heated house envelope.

 

[begreen]

I have no plumbing advice for you, I’m afraid. I thought I’d just offer some sympathy and wish you an otherwise merry Christmas.

Thank you. This has not been a great Christmas due to family issues and me dealing with a separate plumbing issue which also had to be resolved. The first issue was that the shutoff valve going to the greenhouse did not fully shut it off. We are in for sub-freezing temps for several days so I needed to shut down and drain lines heading out to the greenhouse and automatic watering system. I did this a few days ago, but discovered yesterday that the shutoff valve is leaking and water was still in the greenhouse pipes. Got parts yesterday and put in a new valve today. That was fix #1 and while doing that I discovered the new leak. There's more, but I won't bore you with that. Did I mention that I hate plumbing.

 

[begreen]

We can buy 5' 10' and 20' sticks here. I would bet you can do the same.

Yes, I am finding that I can get a shorter roll or sticks here too. I may need to use the roll material because I don't think a stick will flex enough to make the 90º turn up behind the cabinet. I only have about 36" height at that point of the crawlspace. I can remove the rigid, 3/4" copper line in 3' segments to make more room. There is a chase built into the side of the cabinet in which the plumbing runs. I will probably have to run a fish tape to attach the PEX to and pull it. but maybe with the copper lines out I can drop a string with a weight on it. TBD.

I see that PEX comes in red, blue, and white. Is it ok to just use white for everything?

Should I put in two sharkbite 90ºs (cold and hot) at the turn into the crawlspace or just do a gentle sweep 90 with no fittings?

 

[bholler]

Yes, I am finding that I can get a shorter roll or sticks here too. I may need to use the roll material because I don't think a stick will flex enough to make the 90º turn up behind the cabinet. I only have about 36" height at that point of the crawlspace. I can remove the rigid, 3/4" copper line in 3' segments to make more room. There is a chase built into the side of the cabinet in which the plumbing runs. I will probably have to run a fish tape to attach the PEX to and pull it. but maybe with the copper lines out I can drop a string with a weight on it. TBD.

I see that PEX comes in red, blue, and white. Is it ok to just use white for everything?

Should I put in two sharkbite 90ºs (cold and hot) at the turn into the crawlspace or just do a gentle sweep 90 with no fittings?

No fittings is better as long as you can make the sweep. And yes white for everything is fine

 

[begreen]

Thanks. I appreciate the advice. This is not going to be a fun fix so I'd like to get it right the first time. There's lots of room for a gentle turn at the bottom. I see they even sell plastic sweep cradles for this to help avoid crimping.

 

[brenndatomu]

Me personally, I will only use sharkbites if they can be physically restrained from blowing off...if they are installed correctly, they do not have a high failure rate, but it does still happen...so not sure what your situation is exactly, but I would want to cut the copper out, make a new copper section up with sharkbite couplings on each end (assuming the lines can be moved/flexed enough to get the repair section on, then the repair blocked/restrained in a way that it physically cannot separate, even if the sharkbite stops biting...my 2 ¢

 

[bholler]

Me personally, I will only use sharkbites if they can be physically restrained from blowing off...if they are installed correctly, they do not have a high failure rate, but it does still happen...so not sure what your situation is exactly, but I would want to cut the copper out, make a new copper section up with sharkbite couplings on each end (assuming the lines can be moved/flexed enough to get the repair section on, then the repair blocked/restrained in a way that it physically cannot separate, even if the sharkbite stops biting...my 2 ¢

I have used them for transitions between materials in accessable areas for years and never had any issues.

 

[Smokepole]

Yes, I am finding that I can get a shorter roll or sticks here too. I may need to use the roll material because I don't think a stick will flex enough to make the 90º turn up behind the cabinet. I only have about 36" height at that point of the crawlspace. I can remove the rigid, 3/4" copper line in 3' segments to make more room. There is a chase built into the side of the cabinet in which the plumbing runs. I will probably have to run a fish tape to attach the PEX to and pull it. but maybe with the copper lines out I can drop a string with a weight on it. TBD.

I see that PEX comes in red, blue, and white. Is it ok to just use white for everything?

Should I put in two sharkbite 90ºs (cold and hot) at the turn into the crawlspace or just do a gentle sweep 90 with no fittings?

When you do fish your pex, be sure to tape the ends up. It keeps the inside of the pipe clean

 

[coaly]

I’ve used them without issue where accessible. The first few you should mark the end of pipe with pencil for the proper insertion depth. Sharkbite recommends to always measure and mark for proper insertion depth. Their tubing even has arrows at the ends of their name that gives the proper insertion depth when using their tubing.

After you use a few you get the feel of them pushing in, a sort of snap past the O-ring, and bottoming out. They feel strange when done since they rotate easily. If you use a couple on a run where not fastened to something solid they twist and turn easily feeling like they should be fastened in all directions. Same principal as A/C and fuel line fittings that use the quick disconnect for fuel filter connection. Made for quick connection, but not so easy removal.

 

[tlc1976]

The only thing I wonder about Sharkbites is how long the o rings might last.

 

[PaulOinMA]

Three of the guys from my wife's former church that I used to do Friday morning coffee with have old cabins at a former Methodist camp in Maine. They had to redo the derelict cabins and think Sharkbite fittings are the best thing ever.

 

[Gearhead660]

As others have stated, the sharkbite type fittings work. Very similar to the high pressure fuel lines on vehicles. Every time I click them together, I am amazed that they don't leak. I prefer soldering plumbing connections when copper is involved. Done lots of pex and will do it before copper if given the choice.

Any of the colors will work, some of the white has an oxygen barrier coating for boiler heating applications. I like to use red for hot and blue for cold.

I would try to switch from copper to pex in an easier to access location even if it means running more pex. Pex is not too expensive. Make sure the ends where the sharkbite fittings are clean and smooth.

 

[peakbagger]

I prefer the Uponor type fittings but I have the tools in stock that I bought years ago. In general the failures have been in the fittings not in the pipes for most of these "plastic" systems. There have been some O2 barrier issues. The aluminum barrier seems to be quite reliable but some of the surplus coating type barriers are reportedly less robust. I keep a few sharkbites to thread fittings in stock for the "just in case" . If water is spraying all over the place, they sure look like a nice option.

 

[begreen]

Thanks all for the good tips, this boosts my confidence. I have turned off the water to the upstairs bathroom for now. It's snowing hard this morning, so I am probably not going anywhere today. But at least I can work out a plan and parts list.

I have a PVC cutting tool. Would this work on PEX tubing or should I buy a special tool? It looks something like this:

 

[zrock]

SharkBite's are great i have been using them for years in walls, underground, under buildings, everywhere.. I have only had one fail that was undergrounds and that was due to the ground freezing and pushing the fitting off.

Take a SharkBite coupler and connect it to your old copper and new pex and use the copper to pull it through the wall. You can then reuse the SharkBite. From previous experience get more fittings than you think you will need as their is always something that is misses.

I now keep a selection of sharkbites and line kicking around

 

[coaly]

The only thing I wonder about Sharkbites is how long the o rings might last.

Yep, they’re only as good as the o-ring.
I have a 1977 shower faucet that uses them and they are still fine. And they passed for use inside walls, so that says something.

I always sand the cut edge of copper to remove any sharp end cut to reduce damage of the o-ring installing. A slight radius helps it past the ring.

They have saved me in a few tight spots making repairs in ceilings and behind a commercial wok range that would have been next to impossible to remove to work behind. Not cheap, but they have their place.
A professional plumber used one on my neighbors oil fired boiler hot water coil right off the boiler. I took an IR temp reading of the entire area and it was above the recommended use range, but it is still holding. I would not have used one there no matter what. It could have been soldered, perhaps they like to use them instead of a union in case it needs to be removed? Or it just made a plumber out of someone who can’t solder.

Thanks all for the good tips, this boosts my confidence. I have turned off the water to the upstairs bathroom for now. It's snowing hard this morning, so I am probably not going anywhere today. But at least I can work out a plan and parts list.

I have a PVC cutting tool. Would this work on PEX tubing or should I buy a special tool? It looks something like this:

View attachment 288480

That’s the tool.
As you cut, give it a slight rotation and it cuts right through effortlessly.

One of the big differences using pex is the type of fittings. An insert type goes inside the tubing and cuts down the internal diameter. So when using that type that either uses clamp type stainless steel rings, or copper bands, you need to oversize the pipe size to allow for the restrictions at fittings. Sharkbite and other outside sealing types do not reduce the diameter allowing for smaller tubing. The tubing is so cheap, it’s much cheaper using the insert fittings and oversize the tube size.

My issue was always the clamp on the outside is designed to clamp a rubber hose or material that crushes to fit once pushed on. Semi-rigid tubing is not that flexible to crush and conform to a barbed fitting. So you need to be sure they are crimped exact. Crimpers come with a go-no go gauge that you must check every crimp. The stainless clamps are more expensive than copper bands, but one crimp plier like an old fence cutting pliers works for all sizes and gets into tight spaces between studs. The copper rings use a large handle tool with the correct size mandrill for each size. Copper rings are super cheap buying in bulk doing entire systems.

I ordered this close clearance crimp die tool from Amazon, very cheap that is my go to tool for tight places. Vice grips pinch it down, and it comes with the gauge tool. Slower than an expensive crimper, but when not doing an entire home it works fine for me.

 

[moresnow]

After years of chasing rotten, leaky copper in my place I finally got fed up. Got out of bed one morning and stripped out the copper entirely. 8 hrs in total replaced all my lines. Done. Never had another plumbing issue. Great stuff!