Encore Cat - one year later and it doesn't look good...

[Gooserider]

As many of our longer term posters may remember, about a year ago I purchased a used VC Encore 2550 CAT stove from Elk, who had purchased it from a 3rd party, but not burned it himself. My understanding was that he had checked the stove over pretty well, and didn't see any need for major repairs, but thought the cat might be near end of life...

I installed it into the same 6" liner (cleaned) that I'd been running my old smoke dragon on. This is in one side of a double flue masonry chimney w/ 8" clay tiles, and the non-insulated stainless liner dropped down it. The chimney is interior, but next to an outside wall, and extends about 7' above the 12/12 pitch roof, total chimney height is about 25'.

The stove seemed to run fine all last year, although not always as smoke free as I thought it should have been. Even though it was a colder winter overall, we burned less wood, and stayed warmer, and I thought life was good... I knew that I'd need to replace some gaskets after the season ended, but they weren't that bad.

The other known major problem was that I had used a 2 peice stainless "Tee" from Magnaflex to connect the stove to the liner, and the two parts had spread such that there was a 1/4" to 1/2" gap between the snout and body most of the way around. I have purchased a new stainless Metalfab one peice welded Tee to replace it (a MUCH higher quality part)

I will admit to procrastinating and not doing a mid-season cleanout, and then not getting around to cleaning things to get ready for this season until the last few weeks :red:

1. I found the chimney was even dirtier than when I was running the smoke dragon - I'm guessing close to 4-5 GALLONS of crunchy black creosote, especially up near the top - I couldn't get my 6" poly brush through initially, I finally ended up getting a 6" wire brush and cutting it down to a cone roughly 2" at the top and 5.5" at the bottom, and working that through with great effort, then repeating with the 6" brush. I still have a bunch of buildup on the cap screen, not sure how to get that off (I clean from the bottom as the top of our chimney is basically non-reachable...)

2. When I started pulling the fireback out of the stove for the first time, I found the refractory around the cat plug was in pretty rough shape and the while the cat "honeycomb" was mostly intact (Note that it looks like a square gridwork, not a true hexagonal grid like real honeycomb) the metal sides on the cat were severely buckled and distorted. Is there a visual way to tell if the cat is any good or not?

3. The front of the refractory doghouse came off, it appeared to be held together just by ONE sheetrock screw on the bottom edge, although when the fireback is in place it will also be held together pretty well - Is this a problem? The seams where the front would meet up with the back do look OK

4. The ledge where the cat appears to sit is pretty rough, it's hard to tell how much of it is crumbled refractory, and how much of it is compressed ash - and I don't want to get rough with it trying to find out...

5. I purchased a replacement cat a while back from Stovecombustor (on Elk's reccomendation) and while it's metal shell is the same length and width as the one that was in it, the thickness (i.e. the holes the smoke goes through) is only about 1" on the Stove Combustor cat, vs. 2" on the original. - Does this matter? How do I put the new one in?

6. On each side of the refractory there is a bent stainless sheet metal plate. There was a lot of creosote built up between that plate and the outside wall of the stove - Is this normal? I've pulled the plates out and removed the creosote, but I'm not sure when I put the plates back in if they should go up against the wall of the stove or if there should be a gap in between them and the wall for an air passage.

7. It appears the probe for the secondary air thermostat is mostly burned off (part #1601489?) - obviously I'm going to need to replace that, any gotchas or special instructions on how?

8. Are there any pictures available that show where all the air passages are and how they are connected? I'd like to be certain that they are all cleaned out before I start trying to put the stove back together...

Thanks,

Gooserider

 

[karl]

Elk prides himself on pulling out both of his stoves every year and blowing them out with an aircompressor and checking them thoroughly. If he really looked it over, he should have spotted the drywall screw. He seems like a pretty good guy, unless you have a stove forum and are trying to moderate it.

He has his own forum now. It's http://hearthtalk.com Go over there and send him a PM and give him a chance to help you out with it. If he does nothing, then shame him in his own forum. Just let us all know over here, so we can go get a good laugh.

 

[slindo]

I've just been dissecting a used, badly deteriorated VC refractory package, and comparing it with a new one. The front panel appears to to be cemented to the main box using refractory cement, and the sheetrock screws (three on both of mine) probably there mostly just to hold the parts together while the cement dries. It also provides a little (though not much, the refractory board is like mush) backup if the cement should fail (as in my experinence, it alway does, eventually, but usually not until the rest of the box is falling apart. I've never had any luck cementing used refractory together, so you probably are better off just leaving it as it is if the front piece is still fitting flush, and since the other parts will, as you point out, hold it in place.

3. The front of the refractory doghouse came off, it appeared to be held together just by ONE sheetrock screw on the bottom edge, although when the fireback is in place it will also be held together pretty well - Is this a problem? The seams where the front would meet up with the back do look OK

 

[elmoleaf]

2. When I started pulling the fireback out of the stove for the first time, I found the refractory around the cat plug was in pretty rough shape and the while the cat "honeycomb" was mostly intact (Note that it looks like a square gridwork, not a true hexagonal grid like real honeycomb) the metal sides on the cat were severely buckled and distorted. Is there a visual way to tell if the cat is any good or not?

Not sure why it'd be distorted unless really old & damaged. Do the vinegar & boiling distilled water cleaning bath to see what it looks like when clean....then you'll be able to see cracks, damage. My guess is it's toast if the metal band is that messed up.

5. I purchased a replacement cat a while back from Stovecombustor (on Elk's reccomendation) and while it's metal shell is the same length and width as the one that was in it, the thickness (i.e. the holes the smoke goes through) is only about 1" on the Stove Combustor cat, vs. 2" on the original. - Does this matter? How do I put the new one in??

Cat should slide out of the refractory package. The thickness doesn't matter. Supposedly the cat you bought has more surface area so it can get away with being less thick. I found the Clear Skies/Stove Combustor cat was very prone to clogging because of the smaller air passages through it.

 

[homebrewz]

I think I can help with a couple of items. I have a model #0028 which I mostly rebuilt.

The secondary air probe is very easy to replace. It comes as one unit and sells for between $25 and $40.
Take the two screws out of the sheet metal square on the back of the stove and you'll see how it comes out.

As for the refractory, I've never liked that stuff.. too fragile and very expensive to replace. I bought a new one for around $200
a few years ago, but I think they are nearly twice that now. You might try getting the dimensions and making one out of refractory
board. Its only held together with glue and sheetrock screws. There was a good thread somewhere on here a while back about where to
order the material.

The metal plates on either side of the refractory are the side heat shields. They kind of loosely sit in there, just like how they came out.
Just clean them up and put them back in.

good luck!

 

[Gooserider]

Many thanks for the comments and suggestions...

Sounds like I might want to take some measurements on the doghouse before I start putting things back together so that I can look into what it might take to build my own replacement, otherwise just kind of putting it back together the way it is sounds like the best approach.

I also think it sounds like putting in my new combustor (and checking it for clogs more often) is the best way to go - though I might boil out the old one and keep it around as a possible spare.

Definitely need to call around to some of my local dealers to see if anyone has that probe unit in stock - sounds like something a VC dealer should carry as a "routine repair item" - anybody know if it's the same part in both the Cat and Non-cat stoves?

I've also booked our local chimney sweep to come and clean the cap screen - *I* can't reach it with the stuff I've got and / or have found the roof setup makes me a bit overly nervous so the sweep gets $100 to do the cap - of course to do the chimney as well would have been $160, so I'm still saving a good bit...

Gooserider

 

[eernest4]

Gooserider:

All I can say is that you make me very happy that I own a secondary burn stove & not a vermont castings catatonic ball-combuster. hee hee-- :lol:

Seriously, it made my head hurt just reading about part of the troubles you are having with that stove. My best wishes to you & i hope you can manage to fix it to your satisfaction.

My friend has the same model stove that he bought for $30 well used & probably broken & now I realize why he left it out in the field of the guy he bought it from & never bothered to take possession of it, even after he paid for it.

If I owned that stove, I would take it to the firing range to test its armor against some of my larger caliber rifles, But that's just my idea of fun, its not for everyone.

I did that to a car once that I didn't much care for after it kept breaking down & getting me stranded just once too often & I enjoyed the whole day blasting it to schreded sheet metal & so did every one else at the gun club.

Of course, then we had to spend a couple of hours cleaning up the mess but then,you should have seen the face of the tow truck driver that I called to tow it to the junk yard when he saw the remains of the car. Holy ship! What the---- happened here? he said. Is that bonney & clide's car?

Of course , I understand that you want to fix i& use it some more but I would just want to have some fun & blast it to schreds instead of all that work.

You are lucky you have the paceince to deal with all that agrevation& you spell better than me too! The trouble with the spell checker is that it only tells you the words that you spelled wrong but not the right spelling, which I forget after 60 years. But it does help on typing errors. :lol:

 

[Gooserider]

Just as a minor update - I checked my local VC dealers, and none of them stocked the probe, and they said it could take several weeks to get one in. I found that Discount Stove Parts did have one in stock, and have ordered it... Not cheap! The current price for the part, according to both local dealers and DSP is about $60, and I had to pay $12 for shipping from DSP... However they will get it to me in an estimated 2-3 days...

(Moral of story, take care of stove in SPRING, don't wait until just before start of burning season....)

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the detailed progress report Goose. I'm sorry to hear that this has been such a challenge. To listen to Elk it seemed like these stoves should have almost taken care of themselves. Too bad, it's a beautiful looking stove.

Given the high number of owners, maybe a coop creating their own, higher quality refractory parts could be helpful for parts replacement.

 

[downeast]

While it is sad that Goose is having a problem with the CFM/Majestic VC Encore, recall the heat aimed for daring to mention the QC of the company. Dealers stocked and sold the later VC only because of the brand name, many discontinued selling it because of quality problems. Can you spell "EVERBURN" ? ( And yes, I know "you need to learn how" ) While not Mr. Congeniality here ;-) , I have had many real and post-real 1995 VC stoves including 3 Encores. One is burning now.

I expect that posters will respond based on actual experience, not imagined or Googled thought. The sand box tantrums are wonders.

The original VC stoves were catalytic and well-engineered even over engineered well made products. The cat Encore specifically requires a lot of maintenance and care--it cannot be let go IF you are using it for 24/7 heating.

When we sold the second Encore a few years ago for an non-cat Oslo, I explained to the buyer about the maintenance and expense to make the beast run well. Sec probes, gaskets, air flow channels, the cat, the refractory ( bought one last year ~ $300. before the Ch 11 buy out), the cast plates' cement, etc... are part of the needed work on any of the VC cat stoves. Like our old truck, when you have to spend 1/2 the cost of a similar used truck it's pouring $$$ into a pit. Non cats like the Oslo do need maintaining but are less complex, require fewer $$$ parts, yet do not give the exceptional controlled heat of the VC cats.

Elk was one of the boys' personal attacks about my comments about the lousy quality of the branded VC stoves since the 1995 buyout ( See Craig's "history"). It turns out that Elk was pimping for CFM in his own way. It is not Mr Congeniality's style to sit and take those kind of juvenile bleatings. Craig even shut me off the site---probably deserved from his business sense. Some just have this need to preach, to be right without any real time experience with a product or technique, or even with 24/7 wood heating. And have those temper tantrums online.

So now one of those former "boys" has troubles with his great gift. From one who has been there Goose: get rid of it ( back to The Elk %-P ). Get a quality product that does the job for the money: PE, Harmon, Morso, Jotul, Woodstock, Hearthstone..............

 

[Gooserider]

Progress report - it's still not looking good...

Had to call a sweep to get the cap cleaned, I just don't have the equipment to get to the top of our chimney safely. The sweep did, barely, but he was NOT a happy camper up there. He said the cap was almost totally plugged, judging by the creosote he knocked back down the chimney I'd agree.... I would say I had at least 5-6 GALLONS of buildup between the cap and chimney.

I got the temperature probe part, and put the stove back together. I did make fairly detailed dimension sketches of the refractory, and it looks like if there are refractory boards out there that can be handled like plywood it might be possible to build a lower cost / higher durability replacement, but I'm not making promises.

I found when I went to put the new replacement cat in, that there really wasn't any sort of ledge for it to sit on - it looks like there used to be, but it seems to have burned / eroded away. Coupled with the front of the refractory wanting to keep falling forwards, it was really tough getting all the peices into place, but I thought I managed OK...

I lit up the stove, and burned 24/7 for 4-5 days, and seemed like I got good heat, and was pretty reasonable on wood consumption - loading about 3x day, with about 6-8 splits each time. I was burning in each load, and generally keeping the stove top reading about 400* and slightly higher on the stovepipe probe thermometer - in the "good burn" zone for each. I had good response to the thermostatic air control, no signs of air leakage at the doors or elsewhere. But I smoked worse than the old smoke dragon ever did... It was embarrassing :red: sort of like driving down the road in a smoke belching car.

Yesterday was pretty warm, and today was forecast the same, so I let the stove go out. I took the innards back apart and did some investigating. One thing I found was that the new cat appeared to have been sitting crooked in the doghouse, so I decided to fix that... I got out my stainless steel safety wire and used 4 peices to wire the doghouse back together again - if I straightened the wire out I could stick it diagonally through the front and side panels, then twist it together. I then smeared the inside and outside joints with refractory cement, hopefully sealing any leaks. I also dug through my collection of stainless bits and found some rods about 1/8" diameter - I cut two to stick into the refractory at the back and sit on the edge of the doghouse opening at the front - again gobbing them w/ refractory cement when putting them in place - this created a support system for the cat. The cover peice that goes over the cat was also pretty ratty and had broken in one place, so I used more refractory cement and safety wire to stick that back together. I also replaced the gasket on the fireback, using a Dremel type tool to clean out all the old cement down to shiny metal.

I had cleaned out all the air passages that I could with a vaccum when I had the stove apart the first time, I wasn't finding any significant crud in them this time, but I did repeat the vaccuming as much as I could.

I'm now waiting for cooler weather to fire the stove back up and see if my repairs will improve it so that it burns clean...

In the event that I still have a smoke monster, does anyone have any suggestions on where I should look next?

Gooserider
(Who is getting far less happy with this stove...)

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Ouch... Could you replace some of the refractory with some batting like kaowool? On the insulation theme, if the area that holds the cat goes, will the stove be safe to run as an old smoke dragon? If you block off the combustor hole with a plate and insulate over that with another batt, do you think you could get a little secondary burn?

For me, it would all come down to safety. If it's starting to fall apart is it safe enough to burn?

Matt

 

[Corie]

If you get me good details on that catalytic housing, I've got plenty of material at the house to build one (or seven for you). I could prototype it and you could test it? It sounds like yours really is on it's last legs.

 

[Gooserider]

Ouch... Could you replace some of the refractory with some batting like kaowool?

Not really, I don't think. The refractory is sort of structural in that it isn't a soft batting, but rather a rigid board that has to be self supporting, and hold up the weight of the combustor, without blocking the airflow - it's a bit of a complex design as it has a "labrynth" inside it to slow the smoke...

On the insulation theme, if the area that holds the cat goes, will the stove be safe to run as an old smoke dragon?

Technically it's not legal to run w/o the cat, though I don't know who would be checking - we don't have "smoke police" here like they do in some parts of the country. However in theory if I just left the bypass damper open it would run the same way it would with a perfect cat setup since the bulk of the smoke wouldn't go through the cat portion.

If you block off the combustor hole with a plate and insulate over that with another batt, do you think you could get a little secondary burn?

Not really. I'd get a little bit from the window airwash, but essentially all the secondary combustion occurs in the cat chamber.

For me, it would all come down to safety. If it's starting to fall apart is it safe enough to burn?
Matt

I think it's safe, after all everything in the combustor chamber is still totally inside the cast iron and steel outer shell, no matter what happens in the chamber it isn't going to have much of a chance at melting that...

If you get me good details on that catalytic housing, I’ve got plenty of material at the house to build one (or seven for you). I could prototype it and you could test it? It sounds like yours really is on it’s last legs.

I agree it is on it's last legs, the trouble is I wouldn't trust my current drawings to be accurate to within more than +/- about 1/2" or so in some dimensions, a little better in others. They would be good enough to use as a starting point for "cut and fit" if you had the stove there to try them on as you went along, but I wouldn't want to build something based on them from a distance.

I was essentially reaching in with a tape measure to get the numbers, and often having to guestimate where the corner would have been on features that were badly eroded. As an engineer I'm sure you can see why I see it as a questionable set of figures...

At this point what I'm hoping is to limp through the winter on what I have, and do a teardown in the spring to work on a replacement then... (I may want to pick your brain on what to get for materials...) The other option might be to look at a replacement unit of some sort - maybe a Hearthstone Heritage? (I am limited in what will go in the space, it has to be a 6" flue, rear exit... The VC's and Hearthstone are among the few potential candidates)

Gooserider

 

[oldAGE]

Gooserider -

I am sorry that I have come late to the game for your troubles because I would have sold you my old Secondary Air Probe for a song and a beer. I replaced it last year while I was fighting my overfiring issues with my CAT 2550. I know it's no consolation at this time so apologies. So, here is a question since you are really paying attention to this beast right now....

Keeping your stove at 400 -- how are you setting your primary air? 1/3 opened, 1/4 opened, damned near closed?

How much chimney do you have? I have double walled stainless all the way from the stove (close clearance install) to the cap - 8" by ~26'. Although I don't burn 24x7, I do a fair share of 3 - 4 days straight as a secondary heating source from Oct - April. The most I have ever taken out of my entire pipe is a half a brown lunch bag and that was over two seasons. So, even if you quadrupled my use, you probably wouldn't pull out more than a gallon container. Are you getting any back puffing? I always liked to keep mine around 500 - 550 and would get a good eight hours loaded.

My 2 cents. Keeps us up to date and good luck. Oh, and PS... look up my posts from last year. I took some photos of my refractory, etc. It should give you a good idea of what one should look like baring the damage that was obvious in mine. But yours sounds much worse.

Here... let me make it easier on you.. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/14762/ Look at the opening post and then further into the tread and you will see what it looks like out of the stove.
AGE

 

[phishheadmi]

Hey guys,

Don't know if this will help you at all, but I have a brand new refractory package I'm just about to put in...I'd be happy to take some measurements, but my drawing skills are worse than remedial so I don't know how much of a diagram I'd be able to provide. Also, my stove's a bit different, a Defiant Encore model 2190. If you think this would be helpful let me know, I'm planning on putting the ref. package in tonight so it would be easy to measure first.

 

[Gooserider]

Hey guys,

Don't know if this will help you at all, but I have a brand new refractory package I'm just about to put in...I'd be happy to take some measurements, but my drawing skills are worse than remedial so I don't know how much of a diagram I'd be able to provide. Also, my stove's a bit different, a Defiant Encore model 2190. If you think this would be helpful let me know, I'm planning on putting the ref. package in tonight so it would be easy to measure first.

I forget whether that's a newer or older model than mine, but it would still probably help - I don't think they change the refractory package more than they have to.. (I know that all the cat Encores use the same combustor for instance...)

Probably the most critical numbers are the outside dimensions where the package sits into the metal castings - i.e. back, bottom, and the top. I figure the insides can be fudged a little without hurting anything, but the outsides matter a lot since that is where the chamber has to interact with the rest of the stove...

What I would suggest as a drawing technique is to "unfold" the package like a cube, label the faces and put the dimensions on that - it doesn't need to be "to scale" as long as the numbers are as close to accurate as you can make them...

Gooserider

 

[oldAGE]

The 2550 is the lastest (last) Encore using the setup before the Everburn was introduced. (I believe that's accurate).

AGE

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Goose,

At the end of winter, around midway through December, early January, Lowes discounts their heating equipment 50%. I've had great luck picking up both wood and propane stoves at this time of year through them.

Mid December isn't too far off and I bet there will be inventory since oil has come down and we are having a warm winter so far.

Matt

 

[Gooserider]

Goose,
At the end of winter, around midway through December, early January, Lowes discounts their heating equipment 50%. I've had great luck picking up both wood and propane stoves at this time of year through them.
Mid December isn't too far off and I bet there will be inventory since oil has come down and we are having a warm winter so far.
Matt

Good thought, but I just checked the Lowes website, and (as I sort of expected) all they carry are their "Summer's Heat" (aka Englander) stoves - These are steel plate stoves, and nice ones for the money, but like most, they are a top exit design. Because of our chimney setup we MUST use a rear-exit stove, with the top of the pipe not over 36" higher than the floor...

To change this would require MAJOR reconstruction and destroy one of the neatest looking parts of the house. (We call it the "Brick Rocket" - see photo )

Another minor constraint is that I'm somewhat limited on what I can use for a floor R-value - as best I can tell we only have about R-0.8 or so under the hearth, non-combustible but not great otherwise...

Far as I know, this limits us to a few of the VC's, Hearthstone, and maybe a few Jotul's. Englander, Blaze King, P.E. etc, are totally out of the running as they can't be made to fit into our install.

Gooserider

 

[smokinj]

Now Thats Brick work!!

 

[begreen]

Great picture Goose. Brick rocket indeed!

Seems like you would do well with a Quad Isle Royale or a Jotul F600. Sorry again to hear about the hassles. No stove should require this degree of maintenance. Maybe there's an inspector in MA that you can sell the Encore to?

PS: If you really would like to get an Englander, couldn't the old thimble be plugged and a new one cut in higher for the top exit stove?

 

[Valkyrie Rider]

The Englander 24-ACD is a rear or top outlet stove. They are discontinued though so it may be pretty tough to find one new.

 

[Heat Miser]

My 2005 VC Catalytic Defiant had very similar problems to yours which I've posted about in the past. I ran the stove 24/7 for two seasons and in that time I had to replace catalytic elements, the refractory material/combustion chamber (which was cracked on the sides), handles, gaskets, etc.

I replaced the Defiant last year with a Hearthstone Mansfield after losing all faith in the Defiant's reliability and safety. The Mansfield is a far better stove with superior heat output, easier operation, no catalytic element, cleaner burning and much better built.

Personally I'd dump the stove and buy from another company.

 

[VTSR5]

7. It appears the probe for the secondary air thermostat is mostly burned off (part #1601489?) - obviously I'm going to need to replace that, any gotchas or special instructions on how?

8. Are there any pictures available that show where all the air passages are and how they are connected? I'd like to be certain that they are all cleaned out before I start trying to put the stove back together...

Secondary air thermostat gotchas. I recently replaced the probe in my VC WinterWarm (Small) and noted the new probe was not properly indexed. Photos show it well.

(1) See photo below with title "Length" showing burned away probe for reference. Burned away probe makes secondary thermostat run cooler, thus opening gate, thus allowing too much secondary air, thus LEAN mixture. LEAN mixture runs hot, thus HOT cat, hence warped metal cat housing.

(2) See photo below with title "Stock" showing probe installed before index adjustment. Stove and probe are at room temperature, but look at position of air gate -- half closed. As the stove warms up, gate will close too soon, creating RICH mixture, possibly collapsing secondary burn, hence SMOKE. If your new probe arrived mis-adjusted, this may partially explain your continued smoking.

(3) See photo below with title "Adjusted" showing probe installed after I re-indexed the coil relative to the fixing arm. Gate is now open almost to the pin stop, as I think it should be at room temp. Now gate will not close prematurely as stove warms up. This was easy to do with a small wrench and a vice, but you must be gentle. Also, in the process of this operation, I realized that I could have repaired my probe by making and threading a length of copper rod and fixing the old coil to it. So keep your old coil for a spare.

Continued smoking, three thoughts, from personal experience:

Thought One: Secondary air coil not indexed properly, shutting air prematurely.
Thought Two: Blow-by. Warped cat and battered refractory letting too much exhaust by-pass the combustor.
Thought Three: Secondary air passage integrity failure. Exhaust leaking into secondary air due to bad or missing gasketing, warping, some other problem.

Notes on jury rigging a tired old cat in a badly battered combustion chamber:

Many of your cat and refractory issues I have also experienced on my stove. I made a huge improvement in performance when I carefully examined the air flow passages and corrected missing gaskets behind the fireback. Our stoves aren't the same, but your instinct will lead you in the right direction -- Analyze the flows, then do what you must to keep the secondary air flow path separated from exhaust as best you can.

My cat metal housing was unbelievably distorted, and the cat element cracked from the distortion, with chunks missing like scooped out with a spoon. I didn't think it would stand up to boiling, so I soaked it in 100% vinegar for 18 hours, then gently cleaned passages with a doubled or tripled pipe cleaner. Once I fixed the air flow problems, to my amazement, the cat still worked. The major issue with the distorted housing is that it didn't seal well against the battered old refractory housing, and led to blow-by. I fixed this with some creative gasketing. High temp silicon, very thinly applied, will hold pieces of gasket in place until you can reassemble things. It burns off, but then friction can hold things in place til the next time you disassemble.

Is it worth all this work? I bought my VC catalytic insert used and in poor shape, and it has taken more money and time to put it right than I expected. But now that it is working properly, it is an amazing heater. The engineering and design are sophisticated and complex, so it really requires an interested and thoughtful "hands-on" type operator, in my opinion. Smokefree overnight burns from an armload of wood? Shoulder season low output with no smokey smouldering? For me, it's well worth it.