Englander Setup Questions

[SnowedInCNY]

Hello, first post here.
Have a completely new woodstove install, in addition being new to wood heating, so call me the newbie. I don't know what to expect with the stove, with the chimney, with the wood... Just don't know. Have fired for a few nights nows with temperatures ranging mid 50s to high 40s. I think I have been having problems with draft. I have taken a look at some of the similar situations and now sure how to proceed with my own...

Summary of setup:
- New insulation wrapped SS liner (flexible) inside a masonry chimney. At least 20' tall.
- Duravent DVL (double wall) Connector pipe is straight up for 4-5ft, 90 degree bend, then thru the thimble.
- There is a "T" in the chimney which goes down to a cleanout. I have sealed up the cleanout door with silicone caulk, so it should be pretty much airtight.
- Englander 30NC (where is my T-Shirt?? )
- Operating in a basement, house circa 1970s, so it isn't airtight, but it isn't "windy" indoors.
- Wood is seasoned. Kindling is wood scraps from a woodshop, and splits are seasoned wood from a previous year (from previous owner). I am pretty confident it isn't a wood issue.

Here is what I do:
- Get firing going with paper and kindling (1 match, top down method). Whole firebox is up in flames.
- Temperatures up to around 500 with door cracked open, air intake fully out (open).
- When I close the door the flames get lazy. Then flames in the back die out. Then eventually flames in the front of the box die out. And temperatures drop... and pretty soon glowing wood is left. This is with air control completely open.
- Open the door just a small crack and flames come back to life and it heats back up.

It seems like closing the door isn't "sustainable" - just keeps cooling off for lack of air.

Theories:
- Double vent pipe was assembled with screws, but nothing is sealed. When the door is closed I can hear a wooshing/sucking noise, especially from around where the adapter fits into the stove collar. Maybe some draft is getting stolen? How does one go about sealing these areas up?
- Just too warm outside still -- Maybe my expectations are too high? Just can't have a fire when it is this warm?
- Combination of the above?

Set me straight here.

Looking for suggestions on what to do next.

Thanks!

Edit with info later added (below):
- Wood at ~18% moisture
- Loading wood in North/South orientation

 

[leeave96]

Sounds like you got all the bases covered. When I did my driveway burn-in on my Englander with a short piece of stove pipe and an elbow, after I got the wood good and hot, I was able to close the door. The flue gasses going up the stack made enough temperature differential to give the stove enough draft to burn very well with the damper all most fully open. There was also enought draft to get the secondaries to kick-in when I would close the damper.

I think you got a good chimney set-up and height, so you may have a couple of things working against you. One is the outside temperature. Try lighting bottom up vs top down and in doing so, get the bigger splits lit-off and making more intense heat. That may get the draft going better. If that don't work, go to Lowes and get you one of those $20 moisture meters and double check your wood. Everyone has seasoned wood, but the meter takes out all the guess work. I'm thinking you may have a bit of residual moisture in your wood from the summer's humidity if nothing else.

Nice stove - good luck,
Bill

 

[DexterDay]

Wet wood (possibly? ) or the fire is not going long enough and hot enough, but it shiuld still burn?

Are you building a good kindling fire?

How long after adding larger splits are you closing the door?

At 500* stovetop, i wiuld say that the wood should be coaling out pretty good? Are you getting a lot of smoke?

I had a fire last night and tested some of my largest splits of Silver Maple. That have onlu been seasoning since the 1st week of May. As soon as they hit the coal bed, they burst into flames. Loaded it up at 10 last night and still had a good flicker this morning, but was mainly abiut a 4" bed of coals (2 larger splits on the sides were whole, but coals) . My set up is about the same. Up 4 ft, 90, 3ft horiz, thimble, clean out T, and 18ft of Class A to cap. All double wall inside and triple wall outside. With the insulated 20 ft liner you should be drafting like a champ.

What type of wood do you have (species?)?
How long has it seasoned?

 

[rottiman]

At those tempatures I have found that my 30 requires a fair amont of air. This morning the outside temp is 31 degrees and the draft is really good. I have basically the same set up as yours. Prior to the 30 I had a Regencey R3 in its place. That stove would burn really easily on days with higher temps. This new stove is alot more sensitive to outside temp and draft. Still in the learning curve with it . Can't wait for some really cold weather

 

[SnowedInCNY]

I'll try to respond to all the questions...

Re: Wet wood
- I will make a measurement soon. I did recently pick up a moisture meter. I have seen that the appropriate way is to measure in the center of the side of a fresh split. Will let you know.
- The wood that I have put in there after coals are established lights up pretty quickly. I tossed in a small round last night and it was flaming after ~30 seconds or so. I have heard the rule of thumb is under 90 is probably ok

Re: Kindling fire
- I have learned a lot so far, and I think I am doing decent with the kindling fire. I have lots of scraps from a woodshop... Stickers from spacing between drying wood, various scraps that have been cut up. They light right off with the top down burn. 6 newspaper "knots" and the kindling gets going real well.
- I have been putting one medium split in with the kindling and this has been lighting off ok from the kindling. Like I said everything looks great until I close the door.

Re: Wood species
- Kindling is mixed stuff.
- I have burned a couple different types of wood, one of which is a maple. I couldn't tell you the specific kind of maple. The wood that I have been trying to burn is wood that was leftover from a year ago's burning. Which was seasoned from fall to the next winter. So it is probably 2 years cut, split and stacked.

My gut feeling is on draft, just judging by how the flames and coals change in appearance when the door is closed. Firebox full of flames to maybe only one small group of flames...
Assuming I can rule out the wood moisture with the moisture meter, how likely is it a draft "leaking" problem? How can the leaks be sealed up? Or do we think it's an outside temperature thing?

 

[SmokingAndPoking]

First, relax.

You are experiencing typical first fires in the stove. There is no harm in keeping the front door cracked for a while during the kindling stages of the fire. It will take a bit of a coal bed to get all of the internal air passages warm enough to sustain the fire with the door shut. Your draft will improve when the temperature drops, but you still have a huge mass of steel, bricks, etc. to get hot. Start your fire as you are but don't be afraid to keep the door cracked until you can establish a decent bed of coals.

 

[DexterDay]

Until you have a descent load burn down to coals and then reload. The closing of the door drastically reduces the flame activity (even with primary wide open) Afterburning down the 1st starter load and reloading with another, is when the flame will be viscous with the door closed and primary wide open. Like stated above, it takes awhile to get everything hot and up to temp. Especially with the temp now. But once you get a good draft estabilished, Look Out!! This is one heck of a heater.

I start with a Super Cedar and about 10 small pieces of kindling (1x1x16" pieces)
Then add 4 small splits of Pine (Oh No! Not Pine)
Let it burn a bit and get going pretty good (by now the door is closed)
After its good and hot add your "Load"

Have only had 5 fires (5 nights/days - numerous loads) So I am still learning. But i can get a solid 8 hr burn and thats with the Primary open/pulled out, about a 1/2"-3/4". When I close it all the way, its almost nothing but secondaries. But I am still tinkering with it. Gets my basement to about 90 (only heating about 800 sq of it/sectioned off) and the upstairs (2,180 sq ft) was 74 this morning. We leave the basement door open and the door to the laundry shoot open, which is in the hallway where the bedrooms are locateed.

If your wood is that seasoned, you should be fine. I would think that a small leak may hurt performance a little. But a good hot fire should produce good draft with 20 ft of insulated chimney.

The air sucking sound you hear? Could it be the primary air intake? Once established, I can hear mine pretty good.

Can you post a pic? Of the fire when you have the door closed, and primary open? And possibly the area in question where you hear the air leak?

 

[SnowedInCNY]

I split a couple pieces of wood and tested with a moisture meter. Got ~18% on both pieces on the fresh cut face. From what I have seen we are looking for ~20% or less, right?

The sucking noise sounds like it is coming from the top of the stove, not in the rear/lower area where the air intake is.

I will see if I can get some decent pics.

 

[SnowedInCNY]

This might be a dumb question but...
I should be expecting flames with the door closed, right? I mean, not just some hot looking charred wood?

Typically what I am seeing with the door closed is usually one flame right in front of the "dog house" (next to door of the stove), but the rest of the stove (back, sides) are usually just hot coals, no flames. This applies even when the stove has been going for 30-60 minutes and has reached 500F.

 

[leeave96]

I split a couple pieces of wood and tested with a moisture meter. Got ~18% on both pieces on the fresh cut face. From what I have seen we are looking for ~20% or less, right?

The sucking noise sounds like it is coming from the top of the stove, not in the rear/lower area where the air intake is.

I will see if I can get some decent pics.

18% is very good.

 

[pen]

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You won't get this right away, but on a good load of fuel once you can close the air down you'll see the flames transition from coming directly off of the wood to mostly off of the secondary burn tubes. There were some flames coming off of the wood here too but they get washed out and weren't picked up by the camera.

Are you loading your wood front to back or left and right? The 30 really needs to be loaded front to back.

pen

 

[leeave96]

This might be a dumb question but...
I should be expecting flames with the door closed, right? I mean, not just some hot looking charred wood?

Typically what I am seeing with the door closed is usually one flame right in front of the "dog house" (next to door of the stove), but the rest of the stove (back, sides) are usually just hot coals, no flames. This applies even when the stove has been going for 30-60 minutes and has reached 500F.

I've only given my Englander 30 a driveway burn, but I should think you would see much flame from the logs until you damper down and the secondaries take over - in which case you will see lots of flame.

Just for a reference, do a search on the Englander on youtube and you can see how some of these operate.

Good luck,
Bill