Mt Bob
Minister of Fire
MSC makes nothing, they are a distributor/reseller. If you are paying less than 6 bucks per bearing,they are probably china junk.
Enviro M55 convection blower issues/questions
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I took the end of the fan apart to see what type of bearing enviro is using... It's made by a german company named LFD, model # 608RSC3CL1 on mine...
Here's the data page from their site:
https://www.lfd.eu/gb/kugellager-db.php?site=ausgabe (put in designation "608" then refresh)
HTH
Here's the data page from their site:
https://www.lfd.eu/gb/kugellager-db.php?site=ausgabe (put in designation "608" then refresh)
HTH
Thanks to the video (link above), I was able to get the 2 bearings out of the motor...Note: the two bearings in the motor are 608Z's from singapore, and shielded, not sealed..(so they potentially could be regreased if they were good quality, I'll guess these are not).
So, I cancelled my order from amazon (I was only ordering 2 bearings, now need 3)...
I'll go see if I can order some high quality ones....
Thanks all!
So, I cancelled my order from amazon (I was only ordering 2 bearings, now need 3)...
I'll go see if I can order some high quality ones....
Thanks all!
OK... I spent 2 hours looking through listings of bearings to try to find some that have removable shields (that can be regreased), not cheap, and not made in china... Turns out, "shielded" does not mean that the shields can be removed(without probable damage)... The only ones with shields that are designed to be removed have a wire clip to hold the shield in place,,,, I was only able to find 2 models that have the clipped shields, and they are both made in china...... I looked at the italian ones someone posted above, they do not have removable shields..(you may be able to remove them, but probable to damage them when you do)..
So I ordered from grainger, (3) Tritan 608 ZZ PRX bearings... I plan to get the best high temp bearing grease I can find, and grease the bearings when they arrive..(an ounce of prevention?).. Hopefully, if all works, it should last for many years before needing to be touched when I need to do this again...
So I ordered from grainger, (3) Tritan 608 ZZ PRX bearings... I plan to get the best high temp bearing grease I can find, and grease the bearings when they arrive..(an ounce of prevention?).. Hopefully, if all works, it should last for many years before needing to be touched when I need to do this again...
Question for you all... I'm trying to figure out what type of greasae/oil to use on the bearings, and trying to figure out how hot the bearings on the convection blower should get... I know the pellets probably burn hotter than 500F, but I can't imagine that the blower would be more than 250-300F at any one time, because it's blowing cool air into the stove...
Also, would ceramic bearings be of any value here?
Thoughts?
Matt
Also, would ceramic bearings be of any value here?
Thoughts?
Matt
That’s a good question that I’ve been considering lately And I came to the (unsubstantiated) conclusion that it shouldn’t exceed 200F back there. I mean other than the combustion blower area you have the pellets and air tubes between the firebox and the convection blower. Not to mention all the air movement and exchange caused by the convection blower. I’m sure every stove type is a bit different but that’s my take on it.
Ken
Ken
johneh
Minister of Fire
Seeing as the overheat snap disc is 200
I would say the fan stays well below 200
maybe 120 at the max
I would say the fan stays well below 200
maybe 120
at the maxunder 200F, about 1800RPM, so there should be nothing special about the grease you need for these bearings.... I would probably go with a lithium based anyway(always want to go one step or more above what you need..)
Thanks!
Thanks!
Update: I pulled the shields off the two bearings from the motor. One of them had a bunch of black crap in it, the other one had gobs of almost clear grease in it.. Obviously the one with the black crap is the one where the grease failed..
I had looked around for recommendations on what thickness of grease should be used, and found recommendations for NLGI#1 or #2..
I have some #2 somewhere, but I think it's just too thick for this purpose... I looked around town to try to find some #1, but all I could find was some lithium #1.5 at tractor supply($2.29 a tube).. I cleaned and regreased the bearing that was still attached to the blower cage, and it seemed to spin quite nicely...
Once I get the new bearings (scheduled for tomorrow), I'll clean and regrease all 3 of them, then I can put the blower back together and test it...
I found a table that listed time between regreasing on bearings, and for bearings in this application, the recommendation was after 14,000 hours.. If you are running the stove 24x7 for 6 months of the year(24x180=4,320 hours), should probably think about regreasing every 3-4 years... Isn't that about the amount of time you folks have seen between failures?
Question: has anyone had any experience with the other motors failing? Should replacing/greasing other motor bearings be a preventive maintenance task?(something to do in the summer?)
I had looked around for recommendations on what thickness of grease should be used, and found recommendations for NLGI#1 or #2..
I have some #2 somewhere, but I think it's just too thick for this purpose... I looked around town to try to find some #1, but all I could find was some lithium #1.5 at tractor supply($2.29 a tube).. I cleaned and regreased the bearing that was still attached to the blower cage, and it seemed to spin quite nicely...
Once I get the new bearings (scheduled for tomorrow), I'll clean and regrease all 3 of them, then I can put the blower back together and test it...
I found a table that listed time between regreasing on bearings, and for bearings in this application, the recommendation was after 14,000 hours.. If you are running the stove 24x7 for 6 months of the year(24x180=4,320 hours), should probably think about regreasing every 3-4 years... Isn't that about the amount of time you folks have seen between failures?
Question: has anyone had any experience with the other motors failing? Should replacing/greasing other motor bearings be a preventive maintenance task?(something to do in the summer?)
Well, the saga continues. Although the picture of the bearings that I ordered clearly showed a clip to hold the shields in, the bearings I received had the type of shields which cannot be removed.... So, the search continues for bearings that can be regreased...
In the mean time, I took off the bearing on the end of the fan cage (used a small 3 arm gear puller), and then broke several of the tabs on the plastic piece trying to get that off..... It looks like it should just simply twist and then come off... Is there any secret to getting it off intact?
Unfortunately, I broke off enough tabs that I'll have to replace that.. not sure if it can be ordered...
I also took 2 of the new bearings and put the motor together.. It turns out that it's much simpler than the fan cage end...If I can get regreasable ones, I'll put other bearings in the motor..
The bearing on the fan end actually had rubber seals, which it turns out could be removed, so I could have regreased that bearing in place if I had not decided I needed to replace it with a new one....(and then screwed it up)..
In the mean time, I took off the bearing on the end of the fan cage (used a small 3 arm gear puller), and then broke several of the tabs on the plastic piece trying to get that off..... It looks like it should just simply twist and then come off... Is there any secret to getting it off intact?
Unfortunately, I broke off enough tabs that I'll have to replace that.. not sure if it can be ordered...
I also took 2 of the new bearings and put the motor together.. It turns out that it's much simpler than the fan cage end...If I can get regreasable ones, I'll put other bearings in the motor..
The bearing on the fan end actually had rubber seals, which it turns out could be removed, so I could have regreased that bearing in place if I had not decided I needed to replace it with a new one....(and then screwed it up)..
I was trying to find a part number for the plastic piece on the end of the squirrel cage. I did actually find a part number for the complete squirrel cage and bearing and rubber grommet on the end... 50-2926... it's called a "Crossflow Wheel"... (just putting a note here in case anyone else is looking for this...
I have not been able to track down any company making a bearing with shields held in with a clip, that could be regreased.. I was informed by folks at the Lily company (maker of bearings) that the 6082rs (rubber sealed) bearing can be regreased, and the rubber seals can be removed.
I'm not sure that I'd want a bearing with rubber seals in the motor... On the other end of the squirrel cage is ok, but not in the motor..
So, what I am planning to do is to get 2 of the best bearings with metal shields that I can, ABEC 9, either titanium or stainless steel, hope that they have proper grease in them and put them in the motor..
I'll get a similar bearing with rubber seals for the other end of the fan, because you could remove the seals and clean and regrease without having to remove the bearing...
Then the next time the fan fails, I can just regrease the one on the end of the fan (if it seems to be ok), and replace the two in the motor with metal shielded ones..
Interesting, the original fan that failed had two metal shielded bearings in the motor, and the other one had rubber seals.. I probably could have just regreased that one, instead of fiddling trying to remove the plastic piece(and breaking it)...
If anyone has a complete squirrel fan/plastic piece/bearing, etc.. that they'd be willing to part with, it would be worth $50 to me..
Thanks!
I'm not sure that I'd want a bearing with rubber seals in the motor... On the other end of the squirrel cage is ok, but not in the motor..
So, what I am planning to do is to get 2 of the best bearings with metal shields that I can, ABEC 9, either titanium or stainless steel, hope that they have proper grease in them and put them in the motor..
I'll get a similar bearing with rubber seals for the other end of the fan, because you could remove the seals and clean and regrease without having to remove the bearing...
Then the next time the fan fails, I can just regrease the one on the end of the fan (if it seems to be ok), and replace the two in the motor with metal shielded ones..
Interesting, the original fan that failed had two metal shielded bearings in the motor, and the other one had rubber seals.. I probably could have just regreased that one, instead of fiddling trying to remove the plastic piece(and breaking it)...
If anyone has a complete squirrel fan/plastic piece/bearing, etc.. that they'd be willing to part with, it would be worth $50 to me..
Thanks!
Mt Bob
Minister of Fire
OK,bearing lesson. Bearings are open, or with shields,or seals. Sometimes a combination. Of shields and seals, there can be 2 kinds of each, open or sealed.This is where the "rubber" actually contacts the inner race, yes some shields have a "rubber" section that does this. "Sealed"keeps the most dirt and debris out.
Even the cheapest seal bearings are rated for about 215F. If it gets that hot,from itself, it is bad,Actually,if it was that hot,I doubt the motor could spin it. If it is in an environment here it is over that, your stove is on fire. I have put rubber sealed bearings in combustion motors with no bad results.
Now #2, as i said, pretty sure i have 2 of those fans, that,if i remember, only need bearings. I would not strip one down for parts, as would never get rid of parts. I also might just want to recoup my money and sell both at same time. Shipping is what will cost,as I am not a business, so I do not get a low rate. Let me know, will see if I still have them, and test them.
Even the cheapest seal bearings are rated for about 215F. If it gets that hot,from itself, it is bad,Actually,if it was that hot,I doubt the motor could spin it. If it is in an environment here it is over that, your stove is on fire. I have put rubber sealed bearings in combustion motors with no bad results.
Now #2, as i said, pretty sure i have 2 of those fans, that,if i remember, only need bearings. I would not strip one down for parts, as would never get rid of parts. I also might just want to recoup my money and sell both at same time. Shipping is what will cost,as I am not a business, so I do not get a low rate. Let me know, will see if I still have them, and test them.
in addition to the good advice above I wanted to add than any decent quality bearing should come properly greased. Conversely, any bearing which has become noisy is already damaged on some level and if one had to go in there to “re-grease” it, the better idea at that point would be just to swap it out.
Ken
Ken
Ken: Absolutely agree. In my case, it was one of the bearings in the motor that failed, and the one on the squirrel cage seemed to be fine.. If I had not decided to "mess with things", I could have just popped off the seals and made sure that there was grease properly in there..
Unfortunately, I broke the plastic thing trying to take it off the cage... I'm not saying that it probably shouldn't be replaced, but that little plastic piece is not easy to get off without breaking(apparently).. One of the two bearings in the motor seemed to be fine, but there were only little gobs of grease on the race, seemingly none on the balls themselves. It's extremely easy to replace the bearings in the motor, so I wouldn't bother greasing them... That one on the end though...... Oh, and though new bearings will come with grease, it may or may not be the weight that you wanted... I thought possibly a #1 or #1.5 might work better for this application than #2... If you accidentally order bearings that are set up for skateboarding, they may very well have oil in them instead of grease...
Bob: I can get the entire squirrel cage, plastic piece, shaft, bearing etc new for $100(#50-2926)... That's why I said I'd pay $50 for a used one.. It's unclear from your post whether you were offering to sell a "failed" entire unit for $50, you also referenced selling both?
Unfortunately, I broke the plastic thing trying to take it off the cage... I'm not saying that it probably shouldn't be replaced, but that little plastic piece is not easy to get off without breaking(apparently).. One of the two bearings in the motor seemed to be fine, but there were only little gobs of grease on the race, seemingly none on the balls themselves. It's extremely easy to replace the bearings in the motor, so I wouldn't bother greasing them... That one on the end though...... Oh, and though new bearings will come with grease, it may or may not be the weight that you wanted... I thought possibly a #1 or #1.5 might work better for this application than #2... If you accidentally order bearings that are set up for skateboarding, they may very well have oil in them instead of grease...
Bob: I can get the entire squirrel cage, plastic piece, shaft, bearing etc new for $100(#50-2926)... That's why I said I'd pay $50 for a used one.. It's unclear from your post whether you were offering to sell a "failed" entire unit for $50, you also referenced selling both?
I know you went through a lot of effort to work this whole M55 bearing thing out. Thanks for documenting it here, I’m sure it will help others. I know it’ll be helpful to me when I have to get into the blower on my M55.
Ken
Ken
Ken: I agree that any good quality bearing should come already greased, but it'd be just my luck that the one I received didn't quite have enough grease..... What I would like to be able to do is to "trust but verify", which apparently is not an option...
So here's my thought process. If I'm off base on anything here, please let me know...
There are two "parts" to a bearing. one is the physical part, and the other is the lubrication...
If you have a bearing that has something physically wrong with it (when you replace one), you will know within several minutes of turning it on that it was not right... If you have a bearing that worked fine for 3 years, and then "failed", chances are it was the lubrication that failed, not the physical bearing(right?).
I would guess that a good quality bearing could be regreased multiple times before the grease fails, and be just fine for a lifetime (in this application)..
Unfortunately for us, these bearings are the same size as skateboard bearings, so wading through the gazillion listings to try to find the one good quality bearing that we need is an onerous task...
So, if I were a new owner of an M55, and wanted to not have to ever buy a replacement blower, I would get a set of 3 good bearings, make sure that they are properly lubed, and during the summer after the stove was installed, I'd replace the bearings, then every 3 years, I could just pull the blower, clean and regrease the bearings and maybe never have to buy a second blower ($300)..
If I've already had one blower fail, and happen to have bought a second one, I'd still try to get good bearings that could be regreased, put them in the backup (failed) one, then I could either wait for the newer one to fail, or swap it out during the 3rd summer.. Then have time to replace those bearings.. Always having a second one with regreased bearings, or new bearings in case of failure..
In this case, since it does not appear easily possible to find regreasable bearings(bearings with removable metal shields, not rubber seals), and having a second one(failed) on hand, I'd just do what Ken suggests, buy really good bearings, and then I'd swap the unit out each 3 years, and replace the bearings... (a little PM for the summer time)..
Of course, we can always come up with excuses as to why we can wait just another year, and do it next year.. Then we get the failure...
So here's my thought process. If I'm off base on anything here, please let me know...
There are two "parts" to a bearing. one is the physical part, and the other is the lubrication...
If you have a bearing that has something physically wrong with it (when you replace one), you will know within several minutes of turning it on that it was not right... If you have a bearing that worked fine for 3 years, and then "failed", chances are it was the lubrication that failed, not the physical bearing(right?).
I would guess that a good quality bearing could be regreased multiple times before the grease fails, and be just fine for a lifetime (in this application)..
Unfortunately for us, these bearings are the same size as skateboard bearings, so wading through the gazillion listings to try to find the one good quality bearing that we need is an onerous task...
So, if I were a new owner of an M55, and wanted to not have to ever buy a replacement blower, I would get a set of 3 good bearings, make sure that they are properly lubed, and during the summer after the stove was installed, I'd replace the bearings, then every 3 years, I could just pull the blower, clean and regrease the bearings and maybe never have to buy a second blower ($300)..
If I've already had one blower fail, and happen to have bought a second one, I'd still try to get good bearings that could be regreased, put them in the backup (failed) one, then I could either wait for the newer one to fail, or swap it out during the 3rd summer.. Then have time to replace those bearings.. Always having a second one with regreased bearings, or new bearings in case of failure..
In this case, since it does not appear easily possible to find regreasable bearings(bearings with removable metal shields, not rubber seals), and having a second one(failed) on hand, I'd just do what Ken suggests, buy really good bearings, and then I'd swap the unit out each 3 years, and replace the bearings... (a little PM for the summer time)..
Of course, we can always come up with excuses as to why we can wait just another year, and do it next year.. Then we get the failure...
So the trail for regreasable bearings continues. I was poking around in google, and came upon a company that had (presumably) beaarings with removable shields on EBAY.. The part numbers were SMR608ZZ.. Although I could not find that company (I think it was HPR bearings), a search for SMR608ZZ did get me to Boca Bearings. They have a SMR608ZZ that according to the description have removable shields.... And from what I could ascertain, the "S" is for stainless steel, the "R" was for removable shields, I'd guess the "M" is for "miniature".. So, I ordered 3 of them, about $7 each..
When they arrived, I was excited to open the package, and low and behold, bearings with non-removable shields....
So, I immediately went to their web site, and started a chat with one of their folks. I gave him the order number, told him that according to the description these were to have removable shields...... He checked his inventory, found out that they have none of that model with removable shields, and then updated the description on that one....
But..... After I explained to him what I was trying to do, he sent me 3 ceramic bearings (SMR608C-YUU) which he assured me have removable shields and high temperature grease. He said that ceramic bearings need less grease, and not as often..
Oh, an interesting piece of info.. Based upon what I had seen, bearings should have about 35% (of the open space) "grease"... He stated that their bearings typically are 25% grease....
So, the new bearings arrived, and yes, they do have removable shields, but one of them was missing the circlip to hold the shield on one side... Anyway, I popped the shields off on all 3, saw there was about 10% grease, and put in a little more, to make it about 25% anyway..
(by the way, the bearings look excellent.. inside the shield, there is a mesh ring to keep the balls from contacting the metal I guess.. Nice touch)..
I put the two complete bearings into the motor, and spun it up, it was very quiet.. I'll look forward to replacing the new motor with this one this summer so I can be sure we'll make it through next year...
HTH
When they arrived, I was excited to open the package, and low and behold, bearings with non-removable shields....
So, I immediately went to their web site, and started a chat with one of their folks. I gave him the order number, told him that according to the description these were to have removable shields...... He checked his inventory, found out that they have none of that model with removable shields, and then updated the description on that one....
But..... After I explained to him what I was trying to do, he sent me 3 ceramic bearings (SMR608C-YUU) which he assured me have removable shields and high temperature grease. He said that ceramic bearings need less grease, and not as often..
Oh, an interesting piece of info.. Based upon what I had seen, bearings should have about 35% (of the open space) "grease"... He stated that their bearings typically are 25% grease....
So, the new bearings arrived, and yes, they do have removable shields, but one of them was missing the circlip to hold the shield on one side... Anyway, I popped the shields off on all 3, saw there was about 10% grease, and put in a little more, to make it about 25% anyway..
(by the way, the bearings look excellent.. inside the shield, there is a mesh ring to keep the balls from contacting the metal I guess.. Nice touch)..
I put the two complete bearings into the motor, and spun it up, it was very quiet.. I'll look forward to replacing the new motor with this one this summer so I can be sure we'll make it through next year...
HTH
Hi, are you saying that model number is your original from your unit? or is that the replacement one ?
Thatodel number is on the motor on the original unit. I wasn't sure if that may be the manufacturer's number for the entire blower assembly and enviro refers to it with their own number..... It looks like it's just the number for the motor part only..
Hope this helps
oh ok thank you ! I am having issues with my stove and had a new convection n fan put in , it was supposed to be the upgraded one but it has those numbers on it so I am thinking it probably was not ugh
Mine was only installed a few years ago, it may have had the upgraded blower, there is no part numbers on the unit, just the part number on the motor, which is not an enviro part... You may have the upgraded one...
Do you still have the failed one? I'm looking for the fan part, I broke the plastic piece on the end of the fan... If you still have it, I would be happy to buy it from you.. (and pay for shipping)?
Do you still have the failed one? I'm looking for the fan part, I broke the plastic piece on the end of the fan... If you still have it, I would be happy to buy it from you.. (and pay for shipping)?
My wife is reporting that the fan that we replaced earlier this year has now started to get louder.. Now I understand why they want to give you a 90 day warranty.. I'll pull that one out later today, and test it for sound next to the one that I have with ceramic bearings, and then put the one with ceramic bearings in for what's left of this season and next..
Update to above. I pulled the blower out of the stove, disconnected the squirrel fan, and plugged that motor in next to the one with ceramic bearings. The one with ceramic bearings was just a little louder than the motor I had just pulled out, leading me to believe that the noise was coming from the squirrel fan bearing. I removed the cover from the squirrel fan bearing, and there was literally 5% grease in there (if that).. I added some grease, and put that fan on the motor with ceramic bearings and plugged it in. You could not hear the motor over the air movement. I put the unit with ceramic bearings into the stove, fired it up, and it was quieter than the one I had pulled out. Hopefully it gives us years of service.
I guess the moral of the story is: if you are replacing the blower, it only takes about 15 minutes to remove the end of the squirrel fan so you can get to the bearing there, take a pin or needle and remove the rubber seal on the outside of the bearing, and verify there is adequate grease in there... Grease if necessary, put it back together and install it in your stove...
I guess the moral of the story is: if you are replacing the blower, it only takes about 15 minutes to remove the end of the squirrel fan so you can get to the bearing there, take a pin or needle and remove the rubber seal on the outside of the bearing, and verify there is adequate grease in there... Grease if necessary, put it back together and install it in your stove...
vinny11950
Minister of Fire
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