European wood stoves

[Belgian]

Hello there fellow americans

First I would like to say English isn't my mothertongue so please forgive the spelling- and grammatical mistakes Second, congratulations with this superb site you have here, I used it a lot the previous few months and read through a lot of threads (also the older ones) and articles I can find. It's this site that concinced me to buy the stove which heats our small, cosy house we rent here. There is no insulation, but that stove keeps everything warm

We here in Belgium and Europe don't have any EPA-like-rools for wood stoves. It surprised me what kind of stoves one can by here, the kind that would never pass the least strict EPA-rules. There are a lot of inexpensive, steel (not cast iron I mean) stoves where the air-inlet is beneath the fire, where there are no baffle-plates. Not to mention few stoves here have secondary/tertiary burn... .

Anyway, I bought myself a woodstove (brand DRU, quite (if not 100%) similar to Dovre because they are both manufactured in the same factory here) and when I visited stoveshops (which there are few, it's more like a butcher that has stoves for sale also... I'm overexagerating a bit but you know what I mean I think...) both kinds were the same price and the stoves looked absolutely identical (also inside).
I wanted an EPA-approved stove but there are none available. Also would like to mention that those 'stove-dealers' don't even know what secondary burn is... . If I ask them if it would burn overnight they say "Sure, just close the air-inlet, if the glass becomes black thats normal"... . Insert rolleyes here

Anyway, with all of the information I found here I dexided to buy myself a Dru 64 CB (Clean Burning). You can find some information but take in mind I have the wood-only stove, which has a 'full' grate like a wood stove should have, so no grates that let the ashes drop. It also has 'tertiary burn' and fireproof stones on the side and the back. You can take a look here but take in mind these are the 'multi-fueles' variants:
http://www.drugasar.co.uk/multifuel_stoves.htm .
The "unique" burning system is what I think is nothing more than absolutely common on new EPA-stoves in the USA. Preheated air coming down the glass (the air heats up because it is going from the back to the front over the stove-top) and tertiary air coming from behind. Primary air is located trough a sort of ash'thingywingy' at the bottem of the woodgrate. The ash-thingy can be full open to remove ashes in the ash tray.
The manual can be found here: http://www.drugasar.co.uk/pdfs/stove_wood6478.pdf
I would very much appreciate it to look at the manual a bit to figure out how this stove works.

My conclusion: it seems the stove is a lot like most stoves in the USA, expect for two things:
- the tertiary burn only comes just above the fireproof stones in the back, so no holes in the baffle plate. Sometimes I can see 'fire' coming thourgh these inlets, but not often. Nice to see if they do however
- there is no 'damper', and I still don't exactly know what this damper where you all talk about is... . I guess it is a system that avoids fumes going up the chimney too fast and let's them burn again in this so called secondary burn chamber.

My question:
Is this a save stove to operate, environmental friendly and capable of buring overnight, still without fuming the neighbourghoud (I can't see, it's winter and its pitch-black where I live at night )? I set the secondary burn (including airwash), after the wood has burned for 15 minutes or so, to the medium setting. The tertiary air (from the back) can not be turned down. I still see flames, except with big pieces of oak or when I put the stove full of smaller splits of oak. I can see some flames in the beginning, but no flames here after 30 minutes or so, they're just glowing there. After an hour the logs/splits of oak start to flame, slowly with this blue-ish hypnotic-like flame., and after two hours the pieces start falling apart and there are some nice yellow flames. There are still a few hot, red glowing coals after an hour or 7 burried beneath the ashes which makes it easier to start a new fire in the morging.
Is my fire smoldering? Or is this normal with oak (it's dry)? My glass of the stove stays absolutely perfectly clean! The tube going from teh stove to the chimney is always very hot, but I can't finbd any stove-thermometers here
When I put in some pine it burns A LOT faster and HOTTER.
Almost never smoke coming into the room where the stove stands, so draft is ok I think... .

Thanks for reading all of this and more thanks for replying!

Greetings

Your Belgian-woodstovefriend (which wants to protect the environment and doenst want any nasty chimneyfires!)

PS: I would have liked to post a picture here, but I haven't got a digital camera (yet)...

 

[wg_bent]

Aren't Morso, Scan and Jotul stoves sold there? I guess it's possible they are different in Europe than in US, but I know all the Morso line sold here is EPA certified. They have some different stoves they sell there that are not sold in US that I find particularly attractive, but many are.

In looking at your post something like the Morso 3610 is close. Oh well, sort of after the fact if you purchased the stove, but they do look nice and with 75% efficiency rating, they're better than many of the US stoves, so they must be doing something right!

 

[carpniels]

Hi Belgian,

Here a response from a friend up North (from Holland). Well actually I live in the USA, but originally from Holland.

In Europe, there is no EPA. But there are other testing agencies. E.g., TNO in Holland. And I know from their website that Morso has some EPA and TNO approved stoves. So I would look at any stove brand that is sold in the USA and Europe. Which are Jotul, Morso, and Waterford (I am sure I am forgetting a few, I am just mentioning the biggest ones).

Succes

CarpNiels

 

[Belgian]

They have a 75% efficiency rating indeed, but who controls, inspects these number? And in what conditions? I've seen stoves pure plate steel with air coming from under the grate that say they have a +70% efficiency... .
My previous stove (a Saey 94) had efficiency over 73% 'for wood' (it's also a coal stove, go figure), but who gave them this rating? This stove didn't even have a baffle plate! The flames just went right up the chimney! the stovfe burnbed welml however, a 7 inch oak log burned in less then an hour!)
I believe they have this efficencey, with the door open and pieces of 0,5 inch oak in them, with a (new, stainless) chimney of 1000 inches perhaps? Who will tell. There is no 'standard' that I can find, neither do the 'stove-sellers' have one... .

The brands you mentioned are not available for 'normal people'... . They are available for those who can afford +3000 US dollars, and with that money I think stoves like the Scandinavian soapstone's (I believe this kind of material is called soapstone), which cost 'only' 5000 US dollars, are wiser to buy. These are stoves which are made entirely out of some kind of brick (no, they don't resemble to the 'soapstone'stoves here, they are much bigger... )

Jotul is available here, but I have found NO site that claims these models have 'dampers'. I went to one store in Brussels that had Jotuls, but these were old types (for you), here they are new... . None with dampers... .

 

[Belgian]

Hey carpniels

DRU is also TNO-approved (thanks god ). But what are their standards?

And btw, foolish I know, I've already bought a stove... .

Clue: stove of manufacture X are perhaps (rarely) sold in Europe, but they do not have the same techniques as in the USA... .

 

[babalu87]

The brands you mentioned are not available for 'normal people'... . They are available for those who can afford +3000 US dollars, and with that money I think stoves like the Scandinavian soapstone's (I believe this kind of material is called soapstone), which cost 'only' 5000 US dollars, are wiser to buy. These are stoves which are made entirely out of some kind of brick (no, they don't resemble to the 'soapstone'stoves here, they are much bigger...

I bought the Morso 3610 in New Hampshire for $1700 US and that was with the warming racks
$3000?????????

 

[carpniels]

Hi Babalu,

The difference is in the number of stoves they sell and the sales tax. The tax in Holland is 19% (I do not know about Belgium). Everything in Europe is more expensive that the USA (Levis cost $100 overthere) and people tend to consume less, thus prices go up, otherwise the stores would not survive. Plus europe does not have the land and forests that the US has, so there is not a lot of wood to burn (did you USA guys know you need to apply for a tree cutting permit overthere to cut down a tree on your own property????)

Anyway, because they sell so few stoves overthere, the price per unit is very high. It would actually be cheaper for Belgian to buy a Morso overhere and ship it back to Europe if it weren't for the dam**d import tax. That brings the price right back up to where it is there.

Carpniels

PS. I have MANY friends that ask me to buy all kinds of things to bring every year I go to Holland to visit the family. You could make good money if you play it smart.

Belgian,

I know you already bought one. Sorry the Jotuls and Morsos are so expensive overthere. But now that everything is europe, maybe you can drive to denmark and pick one up used. I drove 2 hours for my new stove and friday I have to drive 5 hours for another new stove.

 

[Belgian]

Hello

Thanks everyone for your repl(y)(ies). Indeed, stoves are much more expensive here (In Belgium/Europe) than in the U.S. it seems. Also, like I mentioned, the stoves from manufactures like Dovre or Morso DO NOT have the same 'lay-out' as in the USA; their is no 'damper' in the stoves.

I would like to have some opionions on the (my) stove mentioned above. I have two "things to discuss"...(?- anyone speaks fluent Dutch? )
1-)
. There is primary air coming from the bottom, which is closed most of the time,
. the bottom grate is 'full', so ashes/coals do not fall in the ash-tray
- there is secondary, preheated air coming from the back to the front (above the windows), which helps keaping the glass clear and adds combustioon efficiency (so the manuals says)
- there is tertiary air that comes from the back [however most, if not all, EPA-certified stoves have air-inlets in the bufferplate (more "rows")], so in our stove the tertiary air is only coming above the 'heat-proof-stones( is this english?)' in the back. Sometimes there are flames coming through those holls, which is nice to see, sometimes they don't seem to work at all... .
Is there a big difference in tertiary air coming through inlets "above" the ballfe-plate versus 'behind' the baffle plate in efficiency?

2-)Is the way I describe burning hard wood/soft wood normal? (see fizst post)

3-)
There is NO DAMPER in my stove, however I can buy some kind of thingy for my 'pipe' (that goes from my stove to the chminey') that has some kind of 'damper' that allows fumes to go up the chimeny easy or hard (am I making myself clear...?). Is this a good thing to buy?

Tnanks a lot for your answers!


David, Belgium, Europe

 

[begreen]

Hey David, your English is much better than my Flemish . I can telll you about my experience with a simple pre-epa, european stove - the Jotul 602. I still love this stove for it's ease of use and amazing efficiency. This stove had no ash pan, you couldn't see the flames and I burned soft and hardwood in it, but mostly softwood.

The main diiference between burning hard vs soft is controlling the burn. Softwood, especially the evergreen family, fires up quickly, so the stove needs to have it's air reduced quicker, as the fire gets going hot. I had to have a damper in the smoke stack to aid regulating the stove. It worked great. As the stove got burning hot, I would need to reduce the air intake a lot, and I would close the stove pipe damper almost all the way. Hardwood in this stove burned much the same, but took longer to get burning hot. It burned longer and hotter. A typical burn cycle would be - start stove with kindling and newpaper, damper and intake air open. Add bigger wood once going well, let it char for about 5 minutes, if softwood, close air damper a bit. If hardwood, probably leave air intake full open. After wood has charred, close air damper to about 10-20%, close stack damper almost all the way. Watch stack temp and regulate air to maintain about 500 dg F stack temp.

Even though this stove is pre-epa, it burned incredibly cleanly. It had a simple, time-tested design with an upper baffle that channels the flame back towards the air source for secondary burn. In the 8 yrs. I used it, the stove pipe stayed very clean. The stack only needed a brushing out once. Now, this may have been ideal, the stack went straight up, no bends. With good burning habits, it could put out an amazing amount of heat and I never would see smoke coming out of the chimney, except when feeding it fresh fuel or starting up. Ashes were not a problem until they started restricting the amount of wood one could load into the stove. I usually cleaned it once a week.

Besides adding a stovepipe damper, an essential piece of equipment with the 602 was a stove thermometer. This stove could very easily overfire and run away if one got distracted and didn't damper it down. The thermometer was placed on the pipe, between the stove and the damper. We regulated airflow based on safe temps.

 

[jjbaer]

Hi Babalu,

The difference is in the number of stoves they sell and the sales tax. The tax in Holland is 19% (I do not know about Belgium). Everything in Europe is more expensive that the USA (Levis cost $100 overthere) and people tend to consume less, thus prices go up, otherwise the stores would not survive. Plus europe does not have the land and forests that the US has, so there is not a lot of wood to burn (did you USA guys know you need to apply for a tree cutting permit overthere to cut down a tree on your own property????)

Anyway, because they sell so few stoves overthere, the price per unit is very high. It would actually be cheaper for Belgian to buy a Morso overhere and ship it back to Europe if it weren't for the dam**d import tax. That brings the price right back up to where it is there.

Carpniels

PS. I have MANY friends that ask me to buy all kinds of things to bring every year I go to Holland to visit the family. You could make good money if you play it smart.

Belgian,

I know you already bought one. Sorry the Jotuls and Morsos are so expensive overthere. But now that everything is europe, maybe you can drive to denmark and pick one up used. I drove 2 hours for my new stove and friday I have to drive 5 hours for another new stove.

Hi,

Just saw this and although it's a year or so after you posted it I wanted to ask you how you liked the VC intrepid II that you said you used for 3 yrs? What are the good/bad things about it?

thanks

 

[jjbaer]

Just saw this and although it's a year or so after you posted it I wanted to ask you how you liked the VC intrepid II that you said you used for 3 yrs? What are the good/bad things about it?

thanks

I don't know if elk will pick-up on this thread, so you may wanna grab his attention. He's an Intrepid II burner from way back. Rebuilt one and sold it. I'm sure he could fill you in.

Hi,

I've already heard from him so I thought I'd ask you since you also had one for 3 years.....please provide good/bad/ugly on it..LOL