If I was expecting another ice storm to knock out my power... I would like to take another route on heating my house. I would like to this time... not load up the Tarm with wood.. but instead let it cool down and use the oil boilier which is hooked up in series. Last time.. I knew we might lose power and I filled up the Tarm to experiment to see what would happen. When teh electric went out teh Tarm in the basement was running and the smoke produced was not able to exhaust out quickly enough... and it filled up my basement and house with smoke. Therefore.. this time.. I would like to just use the oil boiler if I know ice is coming. My question.... Do i just let the Tarm go cold? and let the oil burner kick on? Also.. a side question.. maybe for a different forum... when i started my woodstove in the basement( just moved it down there) to use for back up heat.. it also smoked me out! Chimney is cold and on outside. Cold draft blowing down and out the woodstove when i go to start it up. Ho wcan i heat the chimney to get my draft going up before i start the fire? Are there products out there to do this? Does a barometric draft control solve this?
Expecting no electricity.. how to shut down Tarm?
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henfruit
Minister of Fire
try a little news paper first to get a draft or pu a candle in there for a while it should draw then.
stee6043
Minister of Fire
I'm a little confused as to why a power loss would cause your Tarm to smoke inside the house? Where was the smoke coming from? Are you using a draft inducer? Maybe the Tarm works differently than an EKO but certainly my smoke is still going up the chimney when the blower shuts off. I'm guessing by your woodstove question that you aren't getting sufficient draft for either appliance. Does your Tarm burn well? Have you measured draft or flue temp?
henfruit
Minister of Fire
try a little news paper first to get a draft or put a candle in there for a while it should draw then.
Eric Johnson
Mod Emeritus
Just let the Tarm go out and cool down and let the oil kick on. You don't want to operate any solid-fuel boiler without a working pump.
The woodstove smoke problem sounds like a draft issue. Once you have a small fire going, it should begin to draft well and there should be no smoke in your basement. Is the chimney clean? Damper open? Is any other appliance connected to the chimney? If you suspect poor draft and you can't find a reason, best to have a chimney sweep over for a little more thorough diagnostics check. It's good to have a working wood stove when the power goes out, for sure. All I have is a fireplace, which is far from ideal.
The woodstove smoke problem sounds like a draft issue. Once you have a small fire going, it should begin to draft well and there should be no smoke in your basement. Is the chimney clean? Damper open? Is any other appliance connected to the chimney? If you suspect poor draft and you can't find a reason, best to have a chimney sweep over for a little more thorough diagnostics check. It's good to have a working wood stove when the power goes out, for sure. All I have is a fireplace, which is far from ideal.
When power went out.. the Tarm was up to temp.. I have an outside HT chimney and 2 elbows and 4 ft of pipe inside connecting to it. I don't know my flue temps. However.. I do know that when power went out.. there was a ton of smoke... it did not want to go up chimney... it was also very windy... maybe pushing smoke back down in? 24 ft of HT. When electric is out... no fan to push it out?
Eric. The woodstove has me stumped too. Chimney is clean. I cleaned it myself. Chimney has no damper. Tile inside concrete blocks. Outside chimney attached to house. About 30 ft. No other things connected to chimney. I started a small fire in the woodstove.. a little paper to warm it up. It did not work. I tried to keep a very small fire in the woodstove to heat it up.. nope. I can feel the cold air pushing out of my stove when i open it...it is like a cold wind. After smoking up my basement with a ton of smoke... it finally warmed up the pipe and chimney and it drafted fine. However.. i can't start the stove like this everytime i need it. I need a way to heat up the stove pipe and chimney before i start the fire. I like the idea of candle.... but will it be hot enough? And will the cold breeze put it out? I will try this...But i will only start a fire if i feel the stove pipe is warm. Can't go through any more smoke in my house this year. Wife will flip.
Eric. The woodstove has me stumped too. Chimney is clean. I cleaned it myself. Chimney has no damper. Tile inside concrete blocks. Outside chimney attached to house. About 30 ft. No other things connected to chimney. I started a small fire in the woodstove.. a little paper to warm it up. It did not work. I tried to keep a very small fire in the woodstove to heat it up.. nope. I can feel the cold air pushing out of my stove when i open it...it is like a cold wind. After smoking up my basement with a ton of smoke... it finally warmed up the pipe and chimney and it drafted fine. However.. i can't start the stove like this everytime i need it. I need a way to heat up the stove pipe and chimney before i start the fire. I like the idea of candle.... but will it be hot enough? And will the cold breeze put it out? I will try this...But i will only start a fire if i feel the stove pipe is warm. Can't go through any more smoke in my house this year. Wife will flip.
Just a thought---------save a pail or two of coals from the boiler and store in a dry place, start the coals outside until nice and hot, CAREFULLY carry to woodburner and insert, when chimney begins to draw add wood. My first wood burner taught me that a chimney belongs inside the structure if at all possible.
Eric Johnson
Mod Emeritus
Sounds like you have a fundamental draft problem.
On the gasifier, if the Tarm is anything like the EKO, then it smokes when the fan shuts off because there's not enough draft to pull all the smoke down through the nozzle, up through the heat exchanger tubes and out the chimney. I bet if you opened the bypass damper it would clear, but then you run the risk of overheating the boiler. So it's a real dilemma.
On the stove, I guess you need to find something that will heat up the firebox and chimney without producing much or any smoke. I was thinking maybe using a mapp gas or propane torch, but maybe there's some kind of firestarter (biobricks, charcoal, or some such) that you can ignite first that won't smoke you out of the house and jeopardize domestic harmony. It might help a lot to insulate the chimney if you can.
On the gasifier, if the Tarm is anything like the EKO, then it smokes when the fan shuts off because there's not enough draft to pull all the smoke down through the nozzle, up through the heat exchanger tubes and out the chimney. I bet if you opened the bypass damper it would clear, but then you run the risk of overheating the boiler. So it's a real dilemma.
On the stove, I guess you need to find something that will heat up the firebox and chimney without producing much or any smoke. I was thinking maybe using a mapp gas or propane torch, but maybe there's some kind of firestarter (biobricks, charcoal, or some such) that you can ignite first that won't smoke you out of the house and jeopardize domestic harmony. It might help a lot to insulate the chimney if you can.
Eric. Exactly right on opening the bypass. When I awoke to smoke ( when power went out) I went to hte basement to find Tarm smoking. I opened up the bypass to let all the smoke vebt out easily. It did stop the smoking. However... the elect went out at 2 Am so I was not aware of the situation. If I could catch the Tarm when the elect goes off... it would be ok. I am hoping this does not occur when I am at work all day... really do not want to come home to this situation. I have read alot about the backup systems for elect... and may do that at some point down the road. I like the idea of a torch to heat up the chimney... don;t really want to inulsate the chinmey as it will only be used a few times a year for backup when elect goes out. Could be alot cheaper to use a hand torch.... if it works... will have to try it when wife is gone for the day.
Hi Birdman, a couple of thoughts: it sounds like there may not be sufficient supply air to the boiler. Do you have an especially tight basement (or what ever room the boiler is in)? Try opening a window or outside door a crack and see if draft improves. Cold chimney does not help to be sure, but if the room is really tight, any chimney will have a hard time pulling adequate draft.
Second, I would not worry about a run away fire too much in the event of power outage even if you have your bypass damper open. Remember, if the upper and lower doors are both closed, no air will flow through the fuel load.
Third, we always strongly recommend a gravity over heat loop for wood boiler installs. This loop will dump heat from the boiler even when the power is out and help prevent overheating when the power fails. If you are not sure what I am talking about, give us a call and we would be happy to go over it with you.
Second, I would not worry about a run away fire too much in the event of power outage even if you have your bypass damper open. Remember, if the upper and lower doors are both closed, no air will flow through the fuel load.
Third, we always strongly recommend a gravity over heat loop for wood boiler installs. This loop will dump heat from the boiler even when the power is out and help prevent overheating when the power fails. If you are not sure what I am talking about, give us a call and we would be happy to go over it with you.
I am in a similar situation, gable end chimney with gasifier in basement and lost power last storm. My overheat loop did not perform too well, still overheated and even though valves were open once the wood boiler circ was out temps started to rise. Luckily it was first thing in the am so all I had was a good bed of coals, I pulled the fire out into my ash pail and put it outside. I suffer the same backdraft situation with my outside chimney and with the new wood boiler found that with the lower stack temps on days that keep warming beyond 45 the draft is not enough for the wood boiler (filled my whole basement). The solution there is let it go out when warm temps predicted. For the wood stove when I had mine I had to open the cellar door and get a good bunch of papers with kindling built up, light the fire and let it roar for a few minutes once the chimney is heated shut the cellar door and put some more splits in hope this helps.
Is ther a cap on the chimney? Sounds to me like you don't have a cap. A cap will not allow the air to push the smoke down the chimney rather than drawing it up the chimney.
Chris. I didn't want to confuse people... but there are 2 ideas running on this thread. One is the smoke issue with my tarm when elect goes out when it is in the gasifying mode( without bypass open). The second part of this thread is my woodstove not starting easily and some sort of draft problem. To answer your question about sufficient air for the boiler... I have an inlet pipe for extra air for the boiler. It was acually used for my oil boiler.. and now i repositioned it for the fan on the tarm. My basement has a big walkout door area.. but i seal that all up for winter. The basement is not heated (except for the heat the Tarm gives off .. which keeps the area a ton warmer than past years) and i really think there is enough air for boiler. On to the second part of the thread. The block chimney on my gable end which is on outside of house... has a cap. I tried last time to start slow and easy to warm it up.. a little paper and tiny bits of kinlin.. it did not warm it up enough. After some time... i tried to add more kinlin to get it warmer... and then it happened again... all the smoke started to push out of the door and from under the stove. This is a newere stove as well.. 5 years old. I think i really need a way to heat up the chimney before I get a fire in there. So far.. candles or a torch sound like my next best option to try. Moving coals from my Tarm when elect is out to the woodstove doesn't sound like fun to me... and it runs the risk of many other problems... hot coals falling on my floor.. igniting other things... like all the wood i have in the basement? Has anyone heard or seen of some type of chimney heater uppper besides a torch stuck into the woodstove for 5 minutes? I have yet to try this... but it will be my next experiment.
Also a note to Chris. I do have an overheat loop that is used when elect goes out. It did not work that great when mhy elect went out. My boiler got up 100 C and it still did not draw the heat through it. It took a long time for th eeater in that loop to stat flowing... it did eventually... like 15 hours later! and the boiler was still hot... When it was installed... we tested it.. and it worked... not sure why it took so long to work this time? Tree Farmer.. what was your experience with this? Actually i think my boiler got to 104 C.
I don't know about the east coast but here in the midwest propane tanks indoors are an extremely bad idea. I might be wrong but isn't it recommended to not store a gas grill in a garage? Why would you be so afraid to handle a good metal container of hot coals? When I'm done with my snowblower I like to set a pan of coals/ashes in front of it to melt down the mess. I remember my dad using a small charcoal burner in a pepsi delivery truck to prevent freezing, it was designed for that purpose.CZARCAR said:
I guess the hot coal solution does not seem practical to me. I would have to open up my Tarm( during the elect out).. which would be overheating and have lots of dangerous gas in it. Lets say it was not overheating... and I would still have to open it up and let out alot of smoke into my basement... and then.... there is no guarantee that i could just scoop out some hot coals... which would be on the bottom of the chamber.... while a i have 6 pieces of charred wood on top of them...I guess i would have to remove these pieces of wood first? take them out and let them smoke up the basement? Where do i put them? Also.. again.. dangeous to have all of these combustibles out and near my woodpile? The whole process would either be impossible( dangeous gases) or very smoky and dangerous. However... if it was the perfect moment.. and the tarm had some nice hot coals and that was all it had in there... i might give it a whirl. However... i can not depend on this. I want to have a solution in place to deal with those 2-3 times a year that i lose elect and can het up my woodstove chimney quickly to get a fire in there to keep my house warm. Without smoking everything up.
So far.. my favorite idea is to hold a torch inside the stove near the flue pipe for 3-5 minutes... I may give this a try tomorrow.. as the wife will be away. other ideas?
shoeboxlen
Member
I don't think a torch is going to do anything to heat up your chimney or help with your smoke issue. The smoke should "work" its way up the chimney slowly until it heats up and draws better. How is the gasket around the door? Even if the fire box fills with smoke it shouldn't seep out unless your burning some really wet, green wood.
The stove wouldn't happen to be a Kodiak would it? My neighbor bought a used Kodiak wood stove from a guy at a yard sale really cheap. The guy told him it wouldn't draw right with his chimney. Turned out it was a flaw with the stove not the guy's chimney. When my neighbor hooked it up and lit a fire the liquid creosote actually ran back down the pipe and into the fire box. That's with dry seasoned wood. We dragged a stove I use to heat my garage over and hooked it up to the same chimney and it worked great.
The stove wouldn't happen to be a Kodiak would it? My neighbor bought a used Kodiak wood stove from a guy at a yard sale really cheap. The guy told him it wouldn't draw right with his chimney. Turned out it was a flaw with the stove not the guy's chimney. When my neighbor hooked it up and lit a fire the liquid creosote actually ran back down the pipe and into the fire box. That's with dry seasoned wood. We dragged a stove I use to heat my garage over and hooked it up to the same chimney and it worked great.
I agree GKG, I don't think a torch is going to do much. In my experience with woodstoves, the trick is just to get the column of cold air in the chimney moving not actually pre-heat the chimney itself. In other words overcome the force of the cold air falling enough to let the natural flue effect work. Stuff some newspaper up into the chimney as best as you can and once it begins to pull a bit, light the prepared paper/kindling to keep it going. If this won't do the trick - and you are sure you have enough make-up air, then you may have to look into a draft induce like the Exhausto (sp?).
As far as your overheat loop being slow to react, I am not sure about that. Any valves, flow checks, heat traps in the loop that could be slowing things down? Call tech support at BioHeat if you have concerns.
Buddy of mine was plowing his pond tonight (pond hockey freak) and put a wheel through the ice. Three guys, chains, jacks, trucks and grunting. We got it out and had a self congratulatory beer - great fun!
As far as your overheat loop being slow to react, I am not sure about that. Any valves, flow checks, heat traps in the loop that could be slowing things down? Call tech support at BioHeat if you have concerns.
Buddy of mine was plowing his pond tonight (pond hockey freak) and put a wheel through the ice. Three guys, chains, jacks, trucks and grunting. We got it out and had a self congratulatory beer - great fun!
Just a thought---------save a pail or two of coals from the boiler and store in a dry place, start the coals outside until nice and hot, CAREFULLY carry to woodburner and insert, when chimney begins to draw add wood. My first wood burner taught me that a chimney belongs inside the structure if at all possible. Lost in translation??????Birdman said:
oh... i get it now... get the coals and store them in a dry place.... cold. I thought you meant get the coals while they were hot. So i get these coals and store them and then start the fire with them outside... then bring them in and use them. Yup.. the translationan was lost. I was hoping for some other ideas as well as the coal idea. It sounds like it will work.... however... at 3 am going outside during an ice storm and starting up those coals with some paper and kinlin while the wind is blowing doesn't sound fun... I think i like the idea of " Just suck it up and buy the generator and call it a day " idea teh best so far.
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