Fireplace Boiler for Radiant, just a fantasy?

[parsnip]

Hi All,

First, I've learned a ton from this forum. Thank you all.

So, I'm retrofitting the small renovated barn where I live with radiant heat. I'd like to use wood as primary, and propane as a backup for when I'm away. The main room in the home has a BIG fireplace. I love the fireplace. I cook in it, hang out by it, etc. etc., but it is a big heat suck. I thought, "Wouldn't it be cool to put a boiler in the fireplace, with a big viewing area, or the option to even leave the door open on occasion to grill a steak, roast a marshmallow, etc., and have that heat the water in a storage tank, that feeds the radiant system?"

These systems exist in EU and UK, but I can't find a source here. And I can't find anyone who can tell me whether they work well, or if at all. Here is are a few links to some I'm considering:

(broken link removed to http://www.firepowerheating.co.uk/eco-f26)

This one I could import, but I'm worried about quality:

http://kotly.com/Fireplace_with_a_water_jacket__PP690A_CO_-_22_kW,2494.html

So:
1. Why aren't more people doing this here?
2. If I can get one of these imported, is there any reason I shouldn't? It seems cheaper than a gassification unit, likely less efficient, but much more fun for me to be able to have a fire going in the living room all the time.
3. Is the notion of having my fireplace heat my water for radiant just a dream, and I should move along?

Thanks all!

 

[Floydian]

Hello parsnip and welcome,

You are right in that Euro hydronic options far exceed what we have here. Having said that, this could be what you're looking for:
http://www.hydro-to-heat-convertor.com/fireplaceinserts.html

Check out the site, they have a bunch of other options as well, including a gasification unit with a nice big viewing window.

Can you share some details about your radiant floor retrofit? The devil really is in details for a good low temp system which is what you would want with your proposed setup.

Good luck with whatever you choose,

Noah

 

[maple1]

You should also get a quantitative handle on your heat load. You can get a rough idea by past years fuel consumption.

 

[Bob Rohr]

You should also get a quantitative handle on your heat load. You can get a rough idea by past years fuel consumption.

Click on the gasification button on Marc's site noted above. These are sometimes referred to a parlor boilers. Same warm radiant feel as a wood stove, and a portion is used for heating water for radiant or hydronic heating.

If you have time in March, travel to the enormous ISH Expo in the Messe Frankfurt facility. There will be a plumbing and heating show covering 578,000 sq. meters of space. Inside, one entire hall is dedicated to wood and pellet burning appliances, many of them actually running. Perhaps 100's of wood boilers on display.

 

[BoilerMan]

I would love to go to ISH someday! I bet even my wife would love to go, she just said to me "You'd loose your mind with all of that in one place" I think she's right.........

TS

 

[S.Whiplash]

Be aware of certifications such as UL and CSA when looking at wood burning equipment imported from Europe. You may like the product but your insurance company may not and probably will deny coverage for the building that contains it.

 

[ED in CO]

I'm installing one. Just ready to post the wiring and piping diagram. I bought a Polish stove--it does have European certification. I found it on ebay but the seller also has a website. http://www.newhorizoncorp.com/
Unfortunately the fireplace boiler is not on the site. Maybe they were not popular? If you write the owner, Zenon, he may still be able to import them. I had to write the manufacturer in Poland (using Google translate) to get a manual though--they translated it but it is like reading any translation. It is a Cichewicz Spectra Stove. http://www.cwd-group.com/water-stoves-for-wood-spectra-15-30-kw
I think it is a handsome model--well built and came welded to a huge metal plate and crated. I think the freight was included in the price.
The stove can be enclosed to make it look like a fireplace insert too.

 

[S.Whiplash]

Sorry to say the European certification doesn't qualify it for installation in N.A. and your salesman knew that. Talk to your insurance company.

 

[ED in CO]

Sorry to say the European certification doesn't qualify it for installation in N.A. and your salesman knew that. Talk to your insurance company.

Let the buyer beware, right? Actually my stove is a wood boiler and like outdoor furnaces, coal stoves and cookstoves, apparently are not part of the 1988 EPA certification rules. Phase II for hydronic heaters is currently voluntary, although scheduled for adoption in 2015. My state requires compliance with the 1988 emission standards--and specifically states that some wood burning appliances are exempt.
As far as insurance goes, they only asked if we had a woodstove and I said yes, they didn't ask if it was EPA approved. So I don't think I have to talk to them again about it.
But being aware of the legalities and building codes is certainly an important point.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

EPA and UL/CSA certification are 2 different topics.

 

[ED in CO]

It was not obvious to me that the post was referring to safety certification since I am more familiar with EPA. The only certification referenced in Colorado wood stove regulations is EPA. Not sure where there are rules that state that only UL/CSA approved stoves qualify for installation in N.A. I can't find any references other than those that recommend that certification.
The stove I have is sold by Buderus in Europe and is tested to meet CE safety standards. Even though the manufacturers perform this testing, it is rated as similar and as acceptable as UL/CSA testing. The Colorado regulation mentions only EPA Phase II certification is required, except for in some counties and above 7000 ft. Then boilers etc. are exempted as mentioned above.
SOME insurance companies will use lack of UL or EPA certification as a reason not to insure a building, others are less stringent, especially rural serving companies. It does seem to me that if they don't ask, they probably don't have that rule.

 

[maple1]

I couldn't find any references on certifications here either. But when I asked my insurance guy about replacing my boiler before I firmed up my plans, the only thing he said was make sure it has a CSA sticker and I'm good. So I did, and I'm good.

 

[S.Whiplash]

This has nothing to do with the EPA but more a safety standards issue. I looked into this extensively as I wanted to purchase a wood boiler directly from Germany that is not available in the US. I spoke to the company and they stated the safety standard testing were huge hoops they had to jump through to sell their boilers in this market.

Take a look through your house and try to find an appliance that doesn't have a UL or CSA listing, I bet you won't find any including wood stoves. It works effectively as a trade barrier to keep foreign products from our shores but it also standardizes manufacturing and prevents people from building products and selling them out of their garage. It also makes it easier for insurance companies to qualify or disqualify unfamiliar products. If I'm not mistaken I believe these testing labs are an extension of the insurance industry.

I'm not telling you what to do, but omission of information provided to an insurance company will invalidate your policy every time and in most cases they won't be vigilant until a claim is made. No fire, no problem.

 

[ED in CO]

The statement that UL/CSA certification is required to sell a stove in North America is a bit of an exaggeration. It depends on your insurance company as to whether they will insure a house with unlisted appliances and there appear to be several companies that do.

The seller of my stove had no legal obligation to reveal that it was not certified by any specific organization. However, the EPA rules governing the sale of wood stoves ARE in effect. Under these rules wood cookstoves, boilers, etc. are exempt but wood stoves must meet particulate and efficiency standards to be sold in the US. It appears that the fireplace boiler that I bought does meet these standards but it is not tested by an EPA approved lab and neither the seller nor myself are breaking any laws because a wood boiler is exempt from the EPA rules.

These posts have inspired me to research this topic and short of having a discussion with an agent, there are several insurance company websites that state a metal chimney must be UL certified or that a UL certified fire extinguisher should be present, but I only found articles and opinions that cautioned about insurance companies that MAY require certification for stoves or stories from folks being hassled by their insurance agents about wood stoves.

Some sites state that insurance companies cannot restrict appliances based on certification. Not that I would take their word for that. Farm Bureau, Nationwide, and Homesite insurance companies have online wood stove safety tips that don't mention the use of certified stoves. Vermont Mutual's advice on pellet stoves is to "look for" UL certification.

UL just became "for profit" in 2012. It has no government affiliation or support. Just like Consumer Reports, I can and should evaluate whether I value their testing process or not. In fact you can buy a stove made locally and install it. It has to meet EPA certification since 1988 and that does require an independent lab, but not UL. I also read that UL doesn't even have the facilities to test wood stoves and other labs subcontract for testing. Did you know UL has two types of "certification"? UL listed is different from UL certified. I appreciate the work that independent labs do for safety, but I consider them just one source of information not a legal body with jurisdiction over my purchases.

There are building codes that must be followed for the installation of stoves and other heating equipment that is safety related and required by law. This is at the local level and I have a building permit for the replacement of our old wood stove as well as other remodeling we are doing. In fact our insurance is charging us more right now because the house is under renovations--so we are definitely not withholding information from the company.

If your insurance company has a rule that requires UL certification, it appears to me that the onus is on them to reveal that rule or they are practicing insurance fraud. I read my policy and no such rule is stated. There are LOTS of exclusions, but not anything about excluding damage from uncertified appliances. They reserve the right to ask questions or inspect the property and decide whether to insure or not. I also may pay more for our insurance because we have a wood stove. I'm willing to do that because I want to heat with wood.

The regulations in Colorado state that installing a wood heater requires EPA certification EXCEPT in the cases where the stove is exempt, such as a wood boiler, cookstove etc. That is the rule that has to be followed in my state. I can shop for insurance and if one company tells me they won't insure my home, I can find another company. That is a different issue from following legal requirements.