Fireplace Surround

[kaymac]

I've lurking here for almost a year and learned a lot. Thank you everyone.

I am new to wood burning. It wasn't on my must have list but the house I bought about 5 years ago had a fireplace. So I had the chimney cleaned, inspected and started having weekend fires and we really enjoyed it.

I'd like to upgrade this to a fireplace insert so I visited a local place that sold Quadrafire and I think I can fit the Grand Voyageur.

Here is a picture of my open fireplace with the glass doors off. The installer was here today and said that the fireplace surround wasn't safe for any burning. Not sure what to do now.

 

[begreen]

Did he mean that the mantel wood was too close to the insert to meet clearance requirements? If so there may be other insert options. What is distance from the center of the fireplace to the a) fireplace opening, b) to the mantel trim on the side? And what are the same two measurements vertically?

Here is are the voyager grand's clearance reqs. Did he mention mantel shielding?


Looks like the Hampton HI300 might work. Wondering about the Jotul C550.

 

[kaymac]

I think I am OK to the side trim, I measured 44" across. The issue is top clearance to wood trim, it is only 30" and should be 43" if I understand correctly.

No he didn't mention mantel shielding but suggested I hire someone to remove some of the mantel wood but it is 43" to the mantel shelf (forgive me if I don't have the correct terminology but I am learning) but that would essentially remove most of wood I might as well take it all down and who knows what is under it all.

This dealer only sells Quadrafire inserts so I should probably look elsewhere. Thanks for your help.

 

[begreen]

This situation is not that unique. Look at all options before deciding.

 

[kaymac]

After looking around a bit more I've decided to get the mantel and surround removed so I won't be limited to what I can install. I'll deal with what is underneath it afterwards.

Another local dealer sells Regency and Heathstone. I think I like the HI300 with the oversize faceplate in the black finish. This is just for weekends and some evenings so I am not concerned about long burn times.

 

[kaymac]

I did it. I put a deposit down on a Hi300 to be installed in 2 weeks. The carpenter is coming Tuesday to remove the mantel or if possible just the wood surround leaving the mantel top piece (I should have the clearance or close to it).

The dealer agreed to the block off and is installing double wall liner but disagreed with insulation. He said it wasn't necessary here on Long Island and only useful in a much colder climate. While there is still time should I insist on insulation?

 

[bholler]

I did it. I put a deposit down on a Hi300 to be installed in 2 weeks. The carpenter is coming Tuesday to remove the mantel or if possible just the wood surround leaving the mantel top piece (I should have the clearance or close to it).

The dealer agreed to the block off and is installing double wall liner but disagreed with insulation. He said it wasn't necessary here on Long Island and only useful in a much colder climate. While there is still time should I insist on insulation?

Yes you should insist on it. I would also recomend finding an installer that understands the buisness better. Insulation requirement has absolutly zero to do with climate.

 

[begreen]

and is installing double wall liner

What does this mean? Is it pre-insulated or a 2 ply liner? I ask because there have been issues noted with 2 ply liners.

 

[kaymac]

The sample of the liner they showed me appeared to be 2 ply. My house is a 1940's cape with exterior chimney if that makes a difference. I will speak with them before the install about the liner and adding insulation at additional cost if necessary.

Thanks for all your help, it has been invaluable, I wouldn't have even attempted to do this without learning everything I could beforehand.

 

[kaymac]

Another step forward and a question. What is the best way to clean the soot off the brick before the insert is installed.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

@bholler- while bgreen already gave his gentle warning on the 2 ply liner, I think a little more of the bholler brand of tough love may be called for here, specifically on the liner. I'd do it myself, but I have no personal experience, and you're the pro with the creds!

I cringe every time I see someone install the stuff after being given the good advice to avoid it.

 

[Pertzbro]

(broken link removed)

 

[begreen]

The sample of the liner they showed me appeared to be 2 ply. My house is a 1940's cape with exterior chimney if that makes a difference. I will speak with them before the install about the liner and adding insulation at additional cost if necessary.

Thanks for all your help, it has been invaluable, I wouldn't have even attempted to do this without learning everything I could beforehand.

2 ply liner can delaminate and pucker or fishmouth on the interior ply in just a few years rendering it defective and useless. Don't let them install that stuff. Ask for a single-ply liner, heavy duty liner being best, and if they can't comply get some more quotes.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/bummin-over-my-flex-king-pro.151451

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

2 ply liner can delaminate and pucker or fishmouth on the interior ply in just a few years rendering it defective and useless. Don't let them install that stuff. Ask for a single-ply liner, heavy duty liner being best, and if they can't comply get some more quotes.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/bummin-over-my-flex-king-pro.151451

Thanks bgreen! Your normal gentle approach should work in a more perfect world, but many of us independent types that like to do stuff like heat with wood, require the 2x4 between the eyes approach, to know you are serious.

@kaymac- Listen to bgreen. I've been around to know, he's got the creds and knows what he's talking about. More importantly maybe, for some reason, he really cares!

 

[begreen]

I have only had a rigid liner in a chimney so haven't experienced a problem first hand. But I have no problem learning from the experience of others. There have been too many reports of issues with 2ply liners and bholler has seen many failures. That's enough to just say no. Why pay more for something that isn't better?

 

[woodhog73]

I’m just curious and would assume the OP might be
wondering why they even sell the 2 ply liner if it’s that bad ?

I completely trust the advice I get here so if I were installing a new stove I would insist the 2 ply not be used. But apparently some people do still use the 2 ply if it’s that bad why is it even offered anymore ?

I myself have non smooth flex liner which I assume is all single ply. And then insulation can be wrapped around the flex liner is my understanding. But had someone offered me 2 ply before I found this site I probably would have said yes and gotten it. I mean it certainly sounds better 2 layers has got to be better than 1 right ? But in reality you guys say it’s not.

Just curious

 

[bholler]

I’m just curious and would assume the OP might be
wondering why they even sell the 2 ply liner if it’s that bad ?

I completely trust the advice I get here so if I were installing a new stove I would insist the 2 ply not be used. But apparently some people do still use the 2 ply if it’s that bad why is it even offered anymore ?

I myself have non smooth flex liner which I assume is all single ply. And then insulation can be wrapped around the flex liner is my understanding. But had someone offered me 2 ply before I found this site I probably would have said yes and gotten it. I mean it certainly sounds better 2 layers has got to be better than 1 right ? But in reality you guys say it’s not.

Just curious

In theory it is good. But the bottom edge of that extremly thin inner layer is completely unsupported meaning it can buckle if bent to hard or get snagged by a brush ect. I wish they would stop selling it.

 

[begreen]

Sometimes it takes real world testing to show problems in a product. In theory it sounds nice to have a smooth interior wall. That should collect less gunk and be easier to clean, right? The problem is that over time laminates can fail due to the expansion and contracting from heating and cooling cycles. When a fishmouth starts it gets worse every time a brush passes over it.

This is not just with liners. Silicon Energy was a WA state company that made laminated solar panels. These sold well in WA state where a strong incentive was put in place to buy WA state made solar systems. They had a great warranty offer, stayed cooler and offered some unique installation opportunities because they were translucent. Thousands went in around the state. We have a walkway at a local school sheltered by these panels. Then, after about 5-7 yrs. problems with delamination started showing up. The company moved out of state to avoid lawsuits as it couldn't fulfill all the warranty issues. They went bankrupt a couple years later.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

I’m just curious and would assume the OP might be
wondering why they even sell the 2 ply liner if it’s that bad ?

I completely trust the advice I get here so if I were installing a new stove I would insist the 2 ply not be used. But apparently some people do still use the 2 ply if it’s that bad why is it even offered anymore ?

I myself have non smooth flex liner which I assume is all single ply. And then insulation can be wrapped around the flex liner is my understanding. But had someone offered me 2 ply before I found this site I probably would have said yes and gotten it. I mean it certainly sounds better 2 layers has got to be better than 1 right ? But in reality you guys say it’s not.

Just curious

I've been accused of being cynical. But here goes anyway: In today's world, people in business are trained in the art of "planned obsolescence." Why sell someone something once, when you can sell them multiple times for replacement.

If you have been around long enough, you know this is right. And the cycle is getting shorter and shorter.

 

[DarcyMcGuirk]

Hi,

You should ask about the safety, the best kind of heater for you and your family depends on:

• The size of your area

• The amount of heat you want

• The type of heat you want

• The running cost

I bought two wood burning heaters at Sydney Heaters and these are still performing well…

Thanks

 

[woodhog73]

I've been accused of being cynical. But here goes anyway: In today's world, people in business are trained in the art of "planned obsolescence." Why sell someone something once, when you can sell them multiple times for replacement.

If you have been around long enough, you know this is right. And the cycle is getting shorter and shorter.

I do understand what your saying. But I’ll play devils advocate for a moment.

If the 2 ply liners were causing house fires and loss of property damage and worse loss of life, they would not be sold. We live in a litigious society and fact is if there were too many monetary losses or injury from the use of 2 ply liners at some point we would see them taken off the market. Either by way of the company going bankrupt, or the accounting people calculating the cost of continuing to sell vs potential losses being not in its favor, or perhaps court order, etc. the fact it’s still being sold tells me it’s still profitable at some level.

At the end of the day the pros here have said the 2 ply product sucks so I wouldn’t use it. I’m on the same page as you are. Why take your chances with a product known to be inferior.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

I do understand what your saying. But I’ll play devils advocate for a moment.

If the 2 ply liners were causing house fires and loss of property damage and worse loss of life, they would not be sold. We live in a litigious society and fact is if there were too many monetary losses or injury from the use of 2 ply liners at some point we would see them taken off the market. Either by way of the company going bankrupt, or the accounting people calculating the cost of continuing to sell vs potential losses being not in its favor, or perhaps court order, etc. the fact it’s still being sold tells me it’s still profitable at some level.

At the end of the day the pros here have said the 2 ply product sucks so I wouldn’t use it. I’m on the same page as you are. Why take your chances with a product known to be inferior.

I think you got it right. It's not causing extra fires and deaths, but perhaps it's causing a lot more of "your liner is shot, time for a new one". Cha ching!