First extended "cold" of the winter.

[LeonMSPT]

Have to say I am impressed with the New Yorker, more on the coal side than the wood side, but either heats well. Difference is obvious in smoke, soot, and burn time. Been within 5 to 10 degrees either side of zero for about 48 hours now. The New Yorker WC90 keeps up, but will go through a load of wood in about three to four hours without some "help".

"Help" lives in the living room and is purring at 650 degrees, heating the entire 1,800 sq ft first floor apartment to 75-80 degrees at various points. Burn time is up to 5 hours now in the WC90.

Changing over to coal this evening, as I have to work tomorrow and want it "tuned in" before I load to leave for work. Near as I can tell, it requires the maximum 1/2 inch at the air shutter on wood, and about 1/4 inch on coal. When I leave in the morning, I'll turn the heat down to 50 degrees in my apartment to keep demand low, and stretch my coal burn as far as I can, given the really cold conditions outside.

Side note... definitely not something I'd recommend to anyone else. Old timer told me to prop the cleanout door open and break the draft. "Same thing as a barometric damper", he says... not exactly. If you "KNOW" your chimney is clean, and the thing is pulling a draft out of a horror show, it's likely not a "problem". If you were to have a chimney fire, molten creosote and fire would run out onto the floor and you'd be out of a house. So far as anything "backing up" like carbon monoxide, dioxide, or smoke... no possibility.

When I inspected it the other day, as I put the mirror in and got it sighted, I could see little bits of whatnot being sucked up and out of the chimney... going to get barometric damper installed as soon as I can get one. Also replacing the galvanized oil burner pipe with solid piping... with barometric damper installed and getting a draft meter to build in...

I like the way the boiler acts with less draft. Cleaner fire, higher stack temperatures coming off the boiler, and it comes up to temperature and idles much better.

 

[josh]

I'd like to know how your doing it! I've got a WC90 and I'm having a hard time to heat a 1,500 square foot ranch home. I get short burn times and cooler temps in the early mornings. I will have gone through almost 6 cords of year old wood from mid October to end of December. I live a bit farther north than you but the temps shouldn't be that much different outside.

 

[LeonMSPT]

It's a "traditional" style boiler... I've been burning mostly coal in it. Wood burns fairly quickly in it, and I think my wood consumption would have been close to yours if I were on strictly wood.

On the other hand. Adjusting the air shutter, and setting the draft, seems to be very important. The other issue appears to be building up a fire gradually. When I've lit the coal with hardwood splits, I've been amazed at how quickly the boiler comes up to temperature on just an armload of kindling wood.

If I had it to do over, because I buy most of my wood anyway, I'd have bought the WC130 and planned to burn only coal.

Still setting things up. Currently, the clean out door is open to break the draft. I have t's and plugs, and going to purchase barometric damper today and some short pieces of pipe, and get that installed and set up.

Adjusting the air intake to control the fire, in the presence of excessive draft, appears to yield a smokey, cold, fire that doesn't produce much heat in the boiler... oh, stack temperatures are booming, and the thing huffs and puffs like a dragon. I suspect because gasses and flame are being sucked up into the chimney and when they reach air, they do what they do, burn... POOF! Meantime, chimney is getting well polluted with the byproducts.

I'll post more...

What do you have the boiler hooked to? How big is the boiler your connected to? Is the boiler "big enough" to heat your home?

My preference with boilers and stoves, is to be as close as possible to the demand that will be placed on it. If you have to be off, be low... the demand is only going to be highest a few weeks out of the year, the rest of the time the thing will be smoking and creosoting to beat the band. Push it when you have to, worst thing that's going to happen is you're going to burn wood and your oil boiler might run a little to keep up.

Better than a chimney fire a month through the winter.

 

[josh]

My wood boiler is in my attached garage with about 80' of well insulated 1 1/4" pex going into my new yorker oil boiler then sent through the house. I'm not sure of the size of the oil boiler but that was all I had before and it worked fine just got to costly with the oil. I was told by the "professional" that installed the wood boiler that I would have all the heat I could handle, also that it would make so much heat that it would be dumping into my modine in my garage quit often. I just didn't realize that I would have to live in the garage for this to happen. I am really disappointed at the amount of wood it uses and how often I have to fill it. If I had know I was going to be a slave to the wood pile I would bought an OWB or a "wood pig" as I like to call them! With an OWB at least I would have enough heat.

 

[LeonMSPT]

I'd have the guy come back and check it over... might be something he can do for fine tuning.

Did he put a barometric damper on it? I know the contractor who put mine in is scared of them on wood boilers and stoves. "If you ever have a chimney fire..."

My experience with the brain dead move of simply opening the clean out door indicates you need it, and will likely have more chimney pollution and fires without it.

Wood won't burn in a vacuum, and if it's overdrafting and being controlled by cutting the air off, that's exactly what is being attempted. It will take forever to come up to temperature and smoke like there's no tomorrow, and huff and puff and snort like a dragon with a cold whenever you open the over fire vents.

 

[josh]

I do have a barometric damper and I felt I was getting to much draft so I put a key damper between the stove and the baro, closed it a bit and saw no change. Right now I have the key damper open the overfire cracked a bit and the draft blower open about 1/2", the circ pump comes on at 160 the draft blower on at 180 with 15 diff and the oil boiler circ pump on at 140 with the burner shut off trying to save money on a wood boiler that is eating wood. Does that all sound right to you, being that you are heating an apartment building with a WC90 I feel I should take your advice.

 

[josh]

I also forgot to ask you, should I consider storage. Would that help my situation. I would have to hire it done, I'm really new to this but learning all the time, I have spent so much money that I don't want to screw things up.

 

[LeonMSPT]

At idle, what is your stack temperature? A half inch sounds about right, but it is the maximum that New Yorker recommends for the 90. The shaker rod has a hole that draws a fair amount of air in anyway. Wouldn't have idle stack temperature much more than 250 or thereabouts... goal is to minimize condensation, but you likely know that already.

I noticed that at a 1/2 inch, the boiler "walked away" at idle... overheat was coming on often as when the fan wasn't going it was continuing to gain.

Storage has the advantage of maintaining the boiler temperature during the "off" times... like early morning when the fire has died down. The tactic is to burn the heck out of the boiler two, or three, times a day heating the "storage" tank to 180/190 degrees. Want a system piped where you can bypass the heat storage when the whole works is cold... once you get the house and boiler up to temperature, then the storage cuts in as heat is available for it. I don't have storage, and have considered it... it's a tactic with the newer gassifier boilers... they burn so efficiently, they have more heat than the house could use anyway.

Burning coal, there is minimal "overrun" with the fire... storage would allow me to heat the house through the whole day, even when I am not home... to tend it. If it burns out, the house will stay warm for a few hours more on the coal heat stored in the tank.

Usually the process is automated to a degree with a temperature sensitive valve that shunts heated water to the storage tank when the house is satisfied. Requires burning hard and hot, which consumes wood or coal, a few times daily rather than constantly.

You won't burn less wood, you'll burn less often.

Should be a market for the WC90 should you decide to switch boilers. Buy carefully, but it sounds like you've got the right set-up with the inch and a quarter loop to the house.

The wood boiler marketplace is tough. Seems like the manufacturers don't provide a pile of information to people... I can understand it somewhat, as every chimney and house is different. It takes some fine tuning off the directions for set-up, to really get it to work good.

Any wood burning appliance in the house to reduce the load on the hydronic system?

 

[LeonMSPT]

I've picked up alot of information on barometric dampers since researching them for coal/wood applications.

Many "installers" think the metering system on the damper, the little lines on the slide rule the weight lives on, is all they have to go by. "Set it and forget it."

Turns out, maybe not... a manometer should be used to set the draft to the chimney and appliance. Have to get it up to temperature, and then set the weight on the damper according to a draft gauge stuck in the chimney connector on the boiler side of the damper.

I think many would be surprised at the difference between the weight on the damper and the reality in practice.

My chimney is 35 feet tall, 6x6 stainless lined... way more draft than needed, detrimental to efficiency and according to New Yorker unsafe in a power outage...

 

[josh]

No there is no other heat source just the WC90 and the oil boiler, all I can find on the oil boiler is that it is a New Yorker CLW, I can't seem to find a BTU rating. I have a barometric damper on the wood boiler that is closed most of the time, only opens with a good wind, I know that is probably not right but I don't have the right tools for the job. I keep making small adjustments to the wood boiler to get a better burn time, somethings work, some don't. One good thing is that I don't seem to have heat loss from the wood boiler to the oil boiler. I'm just wondering if all the water in both systems and the piping is to much for the WC90, I wonder if I should have gone with the WC130. Sounds like you are getting yours dialed in, heating an apartment building with the WC90 is pretty impressive to me since I'm having the troubles that I am. Sure wish I could get you to come to the county to take a look at my system, all though you would probably tell me that's the way it is just keep playing with it.

 

[LeonMSPT]

Unscientific method, and one I'd use carefully if it was in my house. In your garage, a little extra smoke probably isn't going to hurt much?

"Lighten up" the counterweight on the barometric damper when you've got a good fire burning, until you begin to get some smoke back out of the door on the boiler... then make it heavier slightly... take some adjusting over a couple days, but might discover something there.

One thing I have noticed is the "strain" on the fire when my clean out door is closed. Dirty looking fire, smokey, and quite a monster pile of smoke out the chimney. Also takes longer to come up to temperature and the stack temps are higher.

Open the clean out, break the draft, and things clean up and speed up rapidly...

It's not so much like reading a book as it is looking at a picture... can read a book one sentence at a time, a picture has to be seen all at once to make any sense. There's alot of things to look at all at once, and if something doesn't look right, it probably isn't.

The boiler makes a pile of heat... yes, short burn times when there is high demand. It's what happens with a closely sized solid fuel burner. Maybe the 130 might have been a better choice... might not be too late, if the guy knows you're not thrilled with the outcome he might trade one out... likely a "restocking fee", but not likely much.

I've thought about that issue myself. Seeing as the 130 requires a 7 inch exhaust and the chimney is only 6x6, I've got what I've got... Lucky I've got that... New Yorker says, 15 foot tall, 8x8 masonry, or "equivalent".

Must be 35 feet tall, 6x6 stainless, is "equivalent" as it's working "pretty good"... expect better once I am done.

Mine is about 25 ft away from oil boiler, piped with 1 and 1/4 steel.

Circulator starts at 140 between oil and wood boiler... combustion blower high limit is 175 degrees, with 15 degree diff... and overheat zone is set at 185 degrees. It'll "hover" sometimes at 180/185 and not trigger it. I don't mind, more heat to put out when there is a demand.

 

[josh]

another problem I have is, in the moring when everything is cooled down my oil boiler temp is quit low and the seals leak a bit putting a little water on my basement floor, that is why my oil boiler stops circulating at 140 and my oil boiler stop circulating at 160, just trying to keep the temps up a bit. But my main concern is wood consumption and short burn time, no way can I make it through the night. I'm thinking of trying coal overnight but I don't know anything about it and I get really good quality firewood for free.

 

[LeonMSPT]

Wierd.

I got free coal, and got hooked on it. But, if I was getting wood for the cost of cutting and splitting, I'd not be buying one lump of coal, maybe... Coal definitely burns longer, cleaner, and more evenly. I am currently farting around trying to mix pea and nut sized to extend burn times longer... seems to work, early results are coming in. The smaller pieces of coal fill some of the spaces between the nut coal, increasing fuel load and reducing airflow at the same time... kind of like packing a load of wood in, but instead of smoke and creosote, you get a longer fire and more heat.

I still set my alarm to get up so I am not leaving it longer than 6 hours or so... the time involved in adding coal to a hot fire is nowhere near the time involved in reviving a dying fire. Coal is not so much finicky as it is "slow"... changes take time.

Watching mine tonight for awhile... when I went down to check it, the blower was running and it was just coming "up" from an ongoing load. Adjusted the air shutter, thinking maybe I was choking it too much... door temp went up quickly to 400, nice. Opened it a little more and noticed the temp wasn't rising as fast. So I closed it a bit, and whoa... went to 450 in a minute. "Just right". Stack thermometer was right about the same, 425/450 when the blower is running. Long term idling brings the door temp down to about 250, and the stack down to 150/175... water hangs right in there at 180.

Burning wood was "simple" in a woodstove... adding a water jacket and a combustion blower changes everything. Burning coal is an ill defined science, as they're all different depending on what they're hooked to for a chimney.

Semi anxious to "add" the variable of the barometric damper. New Yorker says no more than .04 inches of draft... simply looking at the scale on the damper, it's easy to see that is on the lower end of it. "Not much draft" is a good term to apply to it.

 

[josh]

another question, do you think my garage not be insulated, which is were the boiler is, is part of my problem. My pipes are insulated and I know the boiler has a bit of insulation too, but I wonder if that is part of the problem. The temp in the garage stays around 45 to 50 degrees unless it gets really cold out. Just wondering your thoughts on this.

 

[MaineMike100]

another question, do you think my garage not be insulated, which is were the boiler is, is part of my problem. My pipes are insulated and I know the boiler has a bit of insulation too, but I wonder if that is part of the problem. The temp in the garage stays around 45 to 50 degrees unless it gets really cold out. Just wondering your thoughts on this.

That could be part of it. So in effect you are heating the house AND the uninsulated garage. If the boiler was sized for just the house, could be a bit small. Also wood consumption will reflect the heat load for both buildings, you can't fool physics, or mother nature.

 

[josh]

I don't run the modine in the garage unless I need it to be warmer for some reason, it's just the heat from the boiler door and stovepipe that keep the garage that warm. I can't afford to run the heat in the garage all the time or I would never be able to sleep or work, I would have to be filling the boiler all the time. I was just wondering if the lower temps in the garage would effect the boiler temps and make it harder to keep the boiler hot.

 

[MaineMike100]

I don't run the modine in the garage unless I need it to be warmer for some reason, it's just the heat from the boiler door and stovepipe that keep the garage that warm. I can't afford to run the heat in the garage all the time or I would never be able to sleep or work, I would have to be filling the boiler all the time. I was just wondering if the lower temps in the garage would effect the boiler temps and make it harder to keep the boiler hot.

I understand you're not running the Modine. But, you are heating the garage with the heat radiating off the boiler, piping, stovepipe, etc. If the boiler were installed in the basement of the house, that heat would be acting to help heat the house, reducing the work your zones need to do. Since it's being lost in the garage you are in effect heating the garage, even if it's only to 50 degrees. So my point on the wood consumption is just that. It takes a certain amount of wood to heat the house, and a certain amount to heat the garage to 50. Add those two numbers together, either wood use or heatloss and viola, you have your total wood consumption. You can bet it's going to be much higher than what's needed for only the house.

I don't know if others have experimented, but maybe some additional insulation around the boiler to minimize the heatloss would help. Some will likely chime in.

 

[josh]

I understand what your saying. I guess what my question is, would it be worth the time and money to insulate the garage, is the cooler temps in the garage cooling the boiler.

 

[MaineMike100]

IMO yes, and yes. Depending on the layout, maybe partitioning off a small room around the boiler and then insulate that would be a cheaper project.

On the other hand, if you insulate the entire garage you'll have the added benefit of a heated garage that will likely stay much warmer than it is now, even without running the Modine.

 

[josh]

I would like to know if anyone else has had this issue and if insulating has helped, I can't see why it wouldn't help, but it is hard to convince the wife to spend the money on something else besides shoes and handbags.

 

[LeonMSPT]

Whatever you do, don't let your wife see this board... lol You'll have to insulate the garage... before you move in.

If you insulated the loop piping, and put some heat rated blanket insulation on the smoke pipe, you'd mitigate some of the heat loss to the garage from the boiler.

How big is your house again? Garage? Closed in attic in the garage or wide open, open around eaves, ceiling?

Maybe a partitioned room for the boiler in the garage would make sense... need to make sure some air leaks in to supply the draft.

Cold one tonight with the wind...