First post from newbie - lots of creosote EBW 200 (O)

[lotusland]

First of all, please excuse any faux pas in my postings - I've never used a forum before.
We got our Econoburn installed partway through our west coast winter, and have been burning mostly dougals fir, at least 2 years old. Since Day One, there has been a LOT of creosote, to the point where when the door is opened, ribbons and gobs of it stretch themselves out along the gap. Walls and ceiling of firebox also coated. The longest burn we've got is about 4 1/2 hours.
Questions:

1. Would adding storage/buffer make for a much more efficient burn?
2. How do I get the existing creosote off as I clean up for summer non-use? (When it's hot, I can scrape the areas that are reachable, but when cold, it practically needs a chisel.

Thanks! When I figure out how to post a picture, I will.

 

[stee6043]

Pardon my ingornace but is that unit a downdraft gasifier? And which "door" are you seeing the creosote in?

All of us gasser users will get some creosote in the upper chamber just by virtue of how the unit operates. But you should not be seeing "gobs, pools, ribbons, etc" unless you're burning wet wood or if the unit is idling significantly.

How big are your splits? How long did your wood season after you split it?

 

[lotusland]

Pardon my ingornace but is that unit a downdraft gasifier? And which "door" are you seeing the creosote in?

All of us gasser users will get some creosote in the upper chamber just by virtue of how the unit operates. But you should not be seeing "gobs, pools, ribbons, etc" unless you're burning wet wood or if the unit is idling significantly.

How big are your splits? How long did your wood season after you split it?

Thanks for your reply. Yes, it's a downdraft gasifier. The creosote is all in the upper burn chamber; the lower chamber stays beautifully clean except for some ash. The wood was split right after falling, about 2 years ago, and has been stored outside in an open-sided, roofed woodshed since then. The pieces should probably be a bit bigger, as they were initially split for the wood stove in the house. I haven't tested for moisture. The maple that we've just felled (for future boiler use) is split much larger.

 

[Eric Johnson]

Wet wood and idling wouldn't seem to be a compatible mix, but I agree with stee that those would be the two primary suspects. Your relatively low burn durations point towards excess molsture, but since you're burning softwood, I really can't say with any authority. Does the thing smoke when running? Do you get good gasification (blue or orange flame)? You could also have the air intake set improperly. That would be my best guess after the wet wood theory. Then you'd get more smoke than flame in the secondary burn chamber. As stee says, you're going to get some upper chamber creosote with any gasifier, but an excessive amount suggests a problem somewhere.

As a side note, I've never figured out how creosote can be so flammable in a chimney, but it won't burn when exposed to direct flame. You can put a torch to it and nothing happens.

 

[lotusland]

Thank you! So I should
a) check the moisture levels, and
b) use smaller loads of wood so that it doesn't idle so much?
There's quite a bit of smoke at start-up, but once it's burning, there is very little smoke. It does smoke a little more when idling. We get a good orange/blue flame in the secondary burn chamber, with no smoke there, really.
Today is so chilly I'm thinking of firing it up again!

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

Firstly, Welcome Aboard.

I know nothing from personal experience with an E-burn. So my comments are based on my general observations from using my unit.

90% of the time I have a problem with my unit . . . it is the wood. I've never burned Fir B4, but I doubt it'd be my first choice if I had a choice.

Split size - I believe the general consensus for downdraft secondary combustion units is that smaller splits are better than larger ones. I don't necessarily agree for my unit, but that above and beyond the scope of this thread

Hard to give you credible advice on the burn times without knowing your setup, your heat load, your heating degree days while you were getting these 4-5 hour burns.

While many a Dude here may steer you toward storage, you shouldn't think it's going to fix everything. For example . . . storage should virtually eliminate idiling, which should greatly reduce creosote. But eliminating idiling will decrease burn times. Now if a full load will only burn 2 hours in a full out burn . . . . . . you better figure out where the heat is going ! But if you are not idiling now, storage isn't going to magically make more heat. And if you are not idiling but are producing that much creosote . . . . . . then you better figure out why yer not burning hot enough.

Confused yet?!? Stick around. Some of the people here that have been burning for a while are going to be quick to blame this on your wood.

Ya know what? They're prolly right

 

[hobbyheater]

First of all, please excuse any faux pas in my postings - I've never used a forum before.
We got our Econoburn installed partway through our west coast winter, and have been burning mostly dougals fir, at least 2 years old. Since Day One, there has been a LOT of creosote, to the point where when the door is opened, ribbons and gobs of it stretch themselves out along the gap. Walls and ceiling of firebox also coated. The longest burn we've got is about 4 1/2 hours.
Questions:

1. Would adding storage/buffer make for a much more efficient burn?
2. How do I get the existing creosote off as I clean up for summer non-use? (When it's hot, I can scrape the areas that are reachable, but when cold, it practically needs a chisel.

Thanks! When I figure out how to post a picture, I will.

Are you in the Fraser Valley or Southern Vancouver Island?
Wood split and under cover for two years will be dry. If the wood has been on the ground and in log form for two years and not split, it is still wet. Fir split and under cover now, will be ready the end of October.
Longest burn 4 1/2 hours - if you are not burning the full load in that time, you are idling and that will generate gooey creosote.
Econoburn 200 is a BIG Big boiler. We heat our older not so well insulated 3,400 sq ft home in Port McNeill and only draw on the average of 15,000 BTUs per hour over the winter months. That is around 15% of your boiler's output. So unless you are heating 10,000 sq ft plus, storage would really help you .

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

If a full load is burning up in 4-5 hours, where are the 'extra' btus gonna come from to heat the storage?

 

[lotusland]

Here are some pictures of the greenhouse - as you can see, R-value is close to zero! I had some trouble trying to shrink these pics for posting - please let me know if I've done it wrong! thanks

 

[hobbyheater]

If a full load is burning up in 4-5 hours, where are the 'extra' btus gonna come from to heat the storage?

We have not had any cold weather since the second week of January ,and very mild since then. If a full load is being burnt in 4 1/2 hours then storage will not help . If the longest burn time of 4 1/2 hours represents the time that boiler has run without idling then storage will help . This area of Canada , is know as " Lotusland " in the winter it is the mildest geographical region in the country .

 

[Eric Johnson]

Well, context is everything. Now I see why you're getting the short burns. I have a 12 x 24' glass/aluminum greenhouse too, and I don't dare try to heat it in the winter, mainly because I like having a warm house and my supply of firewood has practical limitations. As to the creosote issue, you shouldn't be getting excessive amounts of creosote in the firebox if you're burning that thing all-out, balls to the wall, as you appear to be doing. Which brings me back to wood moisture content. A little water can cool and condense a lot of smoke before it has a chance to pass through the nozzle, but there are plenty of other possible causes if your wood is, in fact, dry. Have you checked with the mfg? The outdoor version of that boiler is fairly new, and perhaps they have some suggestions based on reports from other customers.

 

[hobbyheater]

burning mostly dougals fir, at least 2 years old. Since Day One, there has been a LOT of creosote, to the point where when the door is opened, ribbons and gobs of it stretch themselves out along the .

Do you have a Thermostactic Valve on the return to the boiler. Boiler water temperature below 140 will make a lots of creosote.

 

[ewdudley]

Here are some pictures of the greenhouse

Very nice. I especially like the idea of the stand-offs from the arches to the purlins. Are the arches from a local laminating shop, or was the whole thing custom built?

 

[willworkforwood]

Excessive creosote is caused by some combination of poorly seasoned firewood and extended periods of idling. I can't imagine that fir cut small and stacked for 2 years could be an issue. It would surprise me if anything is over 20%, based on how you described the processing of the wood. So that leaves idling. You didn't write about heating anything other than the greenhouse - is that the only load for the EB200? If so, it goes a long way toward answering why there's so much idling. The greenhouse radiant setup is probably not capable of pulling off even close to enough btus, and consequently the boiler is likely spinning lots of idling cycles. During all of this idling the fire smoulders, heating the air in and around the outdoor unit. Maybe it's even your primary load . If this is correct, then storage would essentially eliminate excess creosote. The boiler runs full-out to charge the storage, which then gets distributed to the load at a substantially reduced rate. Short-term, you should scrape the upper door on a regular basis, especially the 4 narrow, sloped surfaces closest to the outside. I use a 2 1/2" hyde paint scraper, which works great for that job. Also keep the bottom and top ledges free of large deposits. But don't bother removing any other creosote from the upper chamber walls. Burning small loads will greatly reduce idling - try to match the size of the fire to the current and upcoming heat load; which obviously includes having no fire at all whenever possible. The more you can do of that, the less idling and excess creosote you will get.

 

[BoilerMan]

Very nice. I especially like the idea of the stand-offs from the arches to the purlins. Are the arches from a local laminating shop, or was the whole thing custom built?

I have to agree........That is one beautiful greenhouse. Other than that, everyone has said what needs to be looked into. It has been mentioned, but what method do you have for return protection?

Taylor

 

[goosegunner]

I have a Econoburn 200 indoor unit that I ran the first year with no storage. I had creosote buildup on the door and ledges. Once I added storage it cleaned itself up. The door and ledges had just a thin layer of flakey. The metal plate on the inside of the door returned to just metal.


Gg

 

[jebatty]

I counted 11 runs of pex on your manifold, and it looks like your manifold has flowmeters for each loop. Add up the gpm's for each loop, take that total x 500 x delta-T (manifold supply temp - manifold return temp), and that will give your btuH. Let us know what that number is. Since you are idling a lot, I will assume that number is much less than the 200,000 btuH rating of the EBW 200, which then clearly is the cause of the idling and the also the likely cause of the creosote buildup. My general rule of thumb is that a 200,000 btuH boiler will have average output over a burn of about 150,000 btuH.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

Request for clarification Lotus . . .

Are you saying a full load will only go 4-5 hours, even though it is mostly idiling?

Jimbo