First Wood Stove in a New (to me) Home

[dnanoodle]

Hi everyone. I just signed up for the forums here. It's nice to meet you.

I am about to purchase my first home, a house in Nagano, Japan, which is a mountainous area in the middle of the main island of the country. It starts getting chilly in Nov here and is full-on cold all the time from Dec through Apr. Japanese homes, I should say early for context, are poorly insulated across the board and we don't have air ducts connecting all the rooms for central heating. We heat only the rooms we use. I feel this info is important to know from the start.

I very much want to heat my home with a wood stove. I love how they look and how the heat feels. My new house will be pretty large (by Japanese standards) and has a pretty big living room. The whole house is 2000 sq ft. The living room where I'd put this stove is about 300 sq ft toward the back of the house. It's connected to the kitchen through a door and to another hallway which leads to other rooms.

I was all but decided on getting a VC Dauntless Flexburn because I absolutely love the VC aesthetics. But then I started reading more about stoves and so many people seem to hate new VC units. Since I have no experience with this stuff I am now considering a JØTUL F 500 ECO instead which seems simpler, easier to use and easier to maintain, on top of also having a somewhat similar aesthetic.

For reference, these are the brands available on one of the Japanese distributor's sites: https://www.triconote.com/products/

Could you kind and very knowledgeable folks please guide me with advice on things I should watch out for when choosing between these? Especially things that I might not have enough experience or knowledge to ask at this stage? And do you have tips in general or is there a good primer of info I can reference for getting my feed under me when it comes to wood stove ownership/use?

Thanks so much!

 

[all night moe]

Hi everyone. I just signed up for the forums here. It's nice to meet you.

I am about to purchase my first home, a house in Nagano, Japan, which is a mountainous area in the middle of the main island of the country. It starts getting chilly in Nov here and is full-on cold all the time from Dec through Apr. Japanese homes, I should say early for context, are poorly insulated across the board and we don't have air ducts connecting all the rooms for central heating. We heat only the rooms we use. I feel this info is important to know from the start.

I very much want to heat my home with a wood stove. I love how they look and how the heat feels. My new house will be pretty large (by Japanese standards) and has a pretty big living room. The whole house is 2000 sq ft. The living room where I'd put this stove is about 300 sq ft toward the back of the house. It's connected to the kitchen through a door and to another hallway which leads to other rooms.

I was all but decided on getting a VC Dauntless Flexburn because I absolutely love the VC aesthetics. But then I started reading more about stoves and so many people seem to hate new VC units. Since I have no experience with this stuff I am now considering a JØTUL F 500 ECO instead which seems simpler, easier to use and easier to maintain, on top of also having a somewhat similar aesthetic.

For reference, these are the brands available on one of the Japanese distributor's sites: https://www.triconote.com/products/

Could you kind and very knowledgeable folks please guide me with advice on things I should watch out for when choosing between these? Especially things that I might not have enough experience or knowledge to ask at this stage? And do you have tips in general or is there a good primer of info I can reference for getting my feed under me when it comes to wood stove ownership/use?

Thanks so much!

The layout of your home sounds challenging to distribute the heat. Drawings and/or pics would help us with some answers.
Draft and flue height is another important factor as well as, wood species and moisture content.

 

[dnanoodle]

The layout of your home sounds challenging to distribute the heat. Drawings and/or pics would help us with some answers.
Draft and flue height is another important factor as well as, wood species and moisture content.

First, thank you for the response. I agree that distributing the heat to the whole house seems difficult. Without much experience I can only guess that it's possible it can't be done. It seems like unless I make more major changes to the house I'd only be able to leave the doors open to the hallway or kitchen.

Here's a schematic of the house. In the top left corner you can find an area that will be sectioned off to put the stove (circled). The two rooms by the stove and the sunroom-ish area above it are all one open space (in red brackets). Below this one open space is a wall with two doors connecting into the hallway which connects the D-K (dining kitchen) and others.

Also, because I don't know a ton about firewood here I screen capped some info about what wood is used for firewood here. I've read about wanting 15-20% moisture content and I expect it's not too hard to get here because it's not terrible uncommon to find wood stoves in homes here, but I'm not sure.

None of this is installed yet, so I can give specific instructions if I need to ensure certain things are done in certain ways. There is a second floor above where the stove is planned so originally the idea was to make a hole in the wall behind the stove to send the flue up outside. But I also read that having a straight vertical flue is important, and so I realized I need to spend some time researching more before I move this forward. Still have plenty of time before locking things down with the house.

Please let me know if that helps or if there's more info I should share. And thanks again!

 

[kborndale]

Getting 15-20% wood is easy. Just have to split the wood, stack it somewhere it gets good sun and wind, and wait a year or two. Softwoods can be split in the spring and burned that winter. Hardwoods need a year or two depending on species. Some hardwood like oak takes 2-3 years to fully season.

Going straight up with your chimney is going to give you the best draft. This is especially important on shorter chimneys that are 15 foot and under. If the chimney is going to be 20+ feet than making a 90 and going up the side of the house is feasible as the chimney is high enough to make up the draft it lost from the 90 degree turn.

 

[EbS-P]

An F500 is too big for 300 sq ft that is poorly connected to the rest of the house. IMO

A many of those brands we don’t get many reports about on the forum. The F400 eco looks completely different than any F400 that’s been sold in the states. Couple thought.

from what I saw I liked the Morso (sized better than the jotul for 300sq ft). Make sure you know the clearances. The layoalmost shows the stove in an alcove. Is that the case? You need a moisture meter. Any wood that was split (excluding pine) this year won’t be dry enough to burn.

 

[begreen]

An F500 is too big for 300 sq ft that is poorly connected to the rest of the house. IMO

A many of those brands we don’t get many reports about on the forum. The F400 eco looks completely different than any F400 that’s been sold in the states. Couple thought.

from what I saw I liked the Morso (sized better than the jotul for 300sq ft). Make sure you know the clearances. The layoalmost shows the stove in an alcove. Is that the case? You need a moisture meter. Any wood that was split (excluding pine) this year won’t be dry enough to burn.

Agreed, the stove in this situation is a room heater only. For a larger stove it should be located more centrally in the most open area of the home.

 

[dnanoodle]

Thanks for the responses. Unfortunately there isn't a specific place in the house that is central and well-connected to the whole house. The kitchen might be the closest to that, but it's also enclosed, like the other rooms. Japanese homes are built so that each room is compartmentalized.

I'm okay with my stove largely being a room heater. If that one room will be very comfortable during winter I would spend most of my time in there, which is how we get by in winter here for the most part.

An F500 is too big for 300 sq ft that is poorly connected to the rest of the house. IMO

A many of those brands we don’t get many reports about on the forum. The F400 eco looks completely different than any F400 that’s been sold in the states. Couple thought.

from what I saw I liked the Morso (sized better than the jotul for 300sq ft). Make sure you know the clearances. The layoalmost shows the stove in an alcove. Is that the case? You need a moisture meter. Any wood that was split (excluding pine) this year won’t be dry enough to burn.

How many kW of energy should I be considering for a room this size? Is it possible to build fires on the small end so the room is not uncomfortably hot? Could you give examples of a Morso and a Jotul from that site that would be safe/comfortable for this room size?

The room is a rectangle, so that alcove-looking part of the schematic is likely brick that the contractor has planned to lay as a safety precaution.

Getting 15-20% wood is easy. Just have to split the wood, stack it somewhere it gets good sun and wind, and wait a year or two. Softwoods can be split in the spring and burned that winter. Hardwoods need a year or two depending on species. Some hardwood like oak takes 2-3 years to fully season.

Going straight up with your chimney is going to give you the best draft. This is especially important on shorter chimneys that are 15 foot and under. If the chimney is going to be 20+ feet than making a 90 and going up the side of the house is feasible as the chimney is high enough to make up the draft it lost from the 90 degree turn.

Does it matter where the bend in the flue is? If it goes horizontally first out the wall and then 90 up the side of the house for 20+ ft is that still going to give good enough draft?

Thanks both of you for the wood advice. I will have alternate heating options for the first winter. If I bought some firewood to use the stove in the first winter is it common for retailers to sell wood that is ready to burn? (Also, is there a term for "ready to burn?")

 

[begreen]

Something in the 5-7 kW should suffice. The Jotul F205 or the F305 are in this range. In the Morso line the 2b and 7110 are good room heaters. I am sure there are other brands like Andelson and Leda available there that are not sold here. Check them out too. Are there other brands?

For better heat distribution a simple help is to put a table or box fan in the hallway, placed on the floor, pointing toward the woodstove. Run it on low speed. It will blow the cooler air down low, toward the woodstove. The denser cool air will be replaced with lighter warm air from the stove room. Running this way you should notice at least a 5F increase in the hallway temp after about 30 minutes running while cooling down the office a bit to make it more comfortable.

In the US it is common for wood sellers to sell wood they call "seasoned" and it is not. How this works out in Japan may depend on whether this is a regulated industry that requires wood sellers to only sell wood that has a verifiable moisture content in the 15-20% range.

 

[dnanoodle]

Something in the 5-7 kW should suffice. The Jotul F205 or the F305 are in this range. In the Morso line the 2b and 7110 are good room heaters. I am sure there are other brands like Andelson and Leda available there that are not sold here. Check them out too. Are there other brands?

For better heat distribution a simple help is to put a table or box fan in the hallway, placed on the floor, pointing toward the woodstove. Run it on low speed. It will blow the cooler air down low, toward the woodstove. The denser cool air will be replaced with lighter warm air from the stove room. Running this way you should notice at least a 5F increase in the hallway temp after about 30 minutes running while cooling down the office a bit to make it more comfortable.

In the US it is common for wood sellers to sell wood they call "seasoned" and it is not. How this works out in Japan may depend on whether this is a regulated industry that requires wood sellers to only sell wood that has a verifiable moisture content in the 15-20% range.

Is there danger (or other detriments) in running a stove like the Jotul F500 at temperatures like I would do in a smaller stove like the Morso 2b?

I like the aesthetics of stoves like the F500, F400 and VCs much more than sleek and smooth designs like the F305. The lattice on the doors is cool to me and I like cast iron with designs on it. The 2b design is cool too, though the bigger one looks even cooler to me. And the unfortunate part to my mind is that I really like units where you can clearly see the fire inside.

Obviously I wouldn't choose a unit that would be dangerous to use regardless other considerations, but if it's safe and there aren't other complications I'd be keen to choose something I like the look of.

There are other brands like Dovre, Travis Industries and Pacific Energy on other sites. At one point I found a Japanese maker with a model I liked but I haven't found it again. There don't seem to be many domestic manufacturers.

(Thanks for the tips on heat distribution! I'll keep that in mind. I'm not sure about regulations on the wood industry here, but generally the country is big on regulations. I do plan on getting a digital thermometer and moisture meter.)

 

[begreen]

The Jotul F400 is a good stove but quite radiant and not ideal for a small space. Is the Jotul F35 available? That would work.
Dovre makes excellent stoves. The 540W or 640W would work but again they are radiant.
If the Pacific Energy Alderlea line is sold then the Alderlea T4 has the classic cast iron look and is a more convective design. That would work better in a small space. The Travis Lopi Rockport is a bit large unless the heat is moved out of the small room.

 

[dnanoodle]

The Jotul F400 is a good stove but quite radiant and not ideal for a small space. Is the Jotul F35 available? That would work.
Dovre makes excellent stoves. The 540W or 640W would work but again they are radiant.
If the Pacific Energy Alderlea line is sold then the Alderlea T4 has the classic cast iron look and is a more convective design. That would work better in a small space. The Travis Lopi Rockport is a bit large unless the heat is moved out of the small room.

Jotul has a Japanese website and I don't see the F35 and haven't been able to find it on import sites. The Alderlea T4 is available on someone's site and looks nice. 👍 I also found the Jotul F100 ECO.2 and F200 on their site. Are those appropriately sized here?

What would happen if I ran something like the Jotul F400 at a lower temperature?

 

[EbS-P]

I have the F400. It does 1000 sq ft open concept easy with temps above freezing. Upstairs is 2000k sq ft. The other 1000 is all bedrooms. Down a hallway.

It sounds like you a constraint a sounds the stove? If so you have options. Literally don’t build your self into a corner.

The old F100 was a nice room heater. Don’t know about the 200. The Morse 2b is a good stove with a cook surface. Small window though. Is the location good for viewing? The T4 is a good design. That would be my choice for you. Then F100 tied with the any of the Morso offerings.

 

[ctreitzell]

I have the F400. It does 1000 sq ft open concept easy with temps above freezing. Upstairs is 2000k sq ft. The other 1000 is all bedrooms. Down a hallway

Jotul F400 is the max firebox size now legal here in France afaiaa...goodness knows what restrictions are in Japan!

I mean, at the end of the day, I've gotten to where I don't care what the appliance looks like as long as said appliance can provide the needed service and not fail while delivering said utility. A big window to keep an eye on the fire is requirement IMO, tho.

Frankly, I did not like the door latch on the F400 when I looked at them earlier this year...for instance, my dodgy Panadero wood burner: that door handle is much, much nicer than the F400...That said, I saw the F400 without a fire in it...just on the show room floor. The rest of the Panadero is not so respectable; certainly nowhere near the celebrity of Jotul.

I find it silly that buyers should make a decision on a potentially dangerous appliance before experiencing said appliance in use...it's a buy and try mentality and hope for the best.

 

[dnanoodle]

Jotul F400 is the max firebox size now legal here in France afaiaa...goodness knows what restrictions are in Japan!

I mean, at the end of the day, I've gotten to where I don't care what the appliance looks like as long as said appliance can provide the needed service and not fail while delivering said utility. A big window to keep an eye on the fire is requirement IMO, tho.

Frankly, I did not like the door latch on the F400 when I looked at them earlier this year...for instance, my dodgy Panadero wood burner: that door handle is much, much nicer than the F400...That said, I saw the F400 without a fire in it...just on the show room floor. The rest of the Panadero is not so respectable; certainly nowhere near the celebrity of Jotul.

I find it silly that buyers should make a decision on a potentially dangerous appliance before experiencing said appliance in use...it's a buy and try mentality and hope for the best.

Agreed. How am I supposed to know how any of this will feel like when I can't try it? >< Without much experience this is really challenging.

What would happen if I put a Jotul F400 in this small-ish living room? Is it bad to run it at low heat? The unit specs list minimum energy, but I'm not understanding why.

 

[stoveliker]

Running a stove low can be bad; choking a fire creates smoke and creosote.
But you can make a small fire (just less wood), burn that "high enough" (to avoid creosote) and then let it go out. The temperature in the room will spike and slowly decrease in this way.
And if your wood is dry enough, modern stoves *approved in the US* generally don't allow to really turn down to such a low point that creosote is a concern. I.e. there are minimum burn rates to keep the exhaust (air quality) clean. Maybe the same is the case in Japan?

I don't know if there are stoves with catalytic combustors available in Japan. They are often able to go to lower outputs (burn the same amount of wood slower) than stoves without such a combustor.

 

[ctreitzell]

My Panadero will let me close the air intake right down…but that equals a dirty system…burn a bit hotter to decrease creo…

Also, smaller fires mean more frequent re-loads…you wanna burn overnight? You’ll be up every hour or so adding splits…I reload every 3 hours when we are burning 24/7…first few days is ok…after a couple weeks, you start losing the will to get outta bed…longer and it might be wise not to operate any machinery

 

[EbS-P]

@dnanoodle you said you want to heat with wood. Why? Liking the feel of a warm stove a couple times a week is different than wanting to heat your whole house with wood.

Did I miss how the house is currently heated?

As far as a big stove for a small space. Negatives are creosote build up and a chimney fire if you forget and walk away when relighting. A room that’s too hot.

What do the locals use. Who do they buy from and who services their wood burning equipment.

Last thought have you considered a wood cook stove??? Did I ask that already.

 

[dnanoodle]

Running a stove low can be bad; choking a fire creates smoke and creosote.
But you can make a small fire (just less wood), burn that "high enough" (to avoid creosote) and then let it go out. The temperature in the room will spike and slowly decrease in this way.
And if your wood is dry enough, modern stoves *approved in the US* generally don't allow to really turn down to such a low point that creosote is a concern. I.e. there are minimum burn rates to keep the exhaust (air quality) clean. Maybe the same is the case in Japan?

I don't know if there are stoves with catalytic combustors available in Japan. They are often able to go to lower outputs (burn the same amount of wood slower) than stoves without such a combustor.

This is helpful, thanks. So if I have a smaller stove it will burn hot but radiate less heat and therefore there will be less smoke and creosote, but also not overheat the room? Do I understand correctly?

My Panadero will let me close the air intake right down…but that equals a dirty system…burn a bit hotter to decrease creo…

Also, smaller fires mean more frequent re-loads…you wanna burn overnight? You’ll be up every hour or so adding splits…I reload every 3 hours when we are burning 24/7…first few days is ok…after a couple weeks, you start losing the will to get outta bed…longer and it might be wise not to operate any machinery

Also helpful, thanks! I'm OK with restarting from coals in the morning or from nothing if I have to. It's unrealistic for me to get out of bed to maintain a fire instead of getting a normal night's sleep.

@dnanoodle you said you want to heat with wood. Why? Liking the feel of a warm stove a couple times a week is different than wanting to heat your whole house with wood.

Did I miss how the house is currently heated?

As far as a big stove for a small space. Negatives are creosote build up and a chimney fire if you forget and walk away when relighting. A room that’s too hot.

What do the locals use. Who do they buy from and who services their wood burning equipment.

Last thought have you considered a wood cook stove??? Did I ask that already.

I want to use wood for an option independent of gas and other infrastructure. Gas is also very expensive here. I do like the feeling of it too and have aesthetic reasons for wanting the stove in that room. Japanese homes are usually not heated in their entirety. It's normal to heat just the room you're using and for the rest of the house to be cold. In this case I'm okay with the room I'm heating being warm and other rooms being only a little warmer as long as 1) the stove's room is comfortable and 2) the house/chimney doesn't catch on fire.

The house is currently heated with electric wall mounted AC/heat units in specific rooms (we don't have central heating in Japan). And with independent kerosene stove units which can be moved to whatever room I want. Some locals use wood stoves, but it's not super common. Likely they don't run these 24/7. I'm not sure who services their equipment, but I did find a few shops in the surrounding region.

I haven't considered a wood cook stove and I'm not sure what that'd entail. I am partial to models with room to heat a pot of food or something on top, like the F400 or Alderlea T4. Models where the pipe connects to the center of the top like the F200 are less appealing, and I want to see the fire clearly through the glass.

I had thought the F400 would be ideal for aesthetic and features reasons, but after talking to folks in this thread I'm worried it'd be too hot for comfort and maybe for safety. The Alderlea T4 was suggested over the F400 for the F400 being potentially too hot for the room, but after checking the specs and seeing the maximum energy output is almost the same it's a little confusing why these are different. Why would this be?

 

[EbS-P]

Bigger cast iron stove like the F400 will require larger clearance to combustibles/walls. You need to get the manual and tape off the minimum clearance for and the hearth size for the F400. See if it fits then do the same for a T4.

The F400 looks great and I love mine. In a 300 square ft room one small load from a cold start could work. 2 regular sized spits. Two small splits then lots of kindling on top. It’s the reload that will get things too warm (the room) to get a good clean burn. There are better choices for your small space that you will enjoy just as much. Any Morso or the t4 would be my suggestion.

 

[stoveliker]

This is helpful, thanks. So if I have a smaller stove it will burn hot but radiate less heat and therefore there will be less smoke and creosote, but also not overheat the room? Do I understand correctly?

How much heat radiates depends on the amount of heat produced in the fire box; a smaller firebox will have a smaller fire, so less heat produced. And it depends on the radiating surface area: a cube with 1 meter edges at 200 C will radiate more heat energy into your room than a cube with 50 cm edges.
So yes, you are correct. Burn it hot enough for it to burn clean, but keep energy output low enough. That means smaller fires, and thus a smaller firebox is appropriate. (One can always burn a small fire in a big box, but there are limits to that being effective.)

Also helpful, thanks! I'm OK with restarting from coals in the morning or from nothing if I have to. It's unrealistic for me to get out of bed to maintain a fire instead of getting a normal night's sleep.

The smallest stoves may not have viable coals after 6 hrs or so.

 

[dnanoodle]

Burn it hot enough for it to burn clean, but keep energy output low enough. That means smaller fires, and thus a smaller firebox is appropriate.

Is there a resource I can look over to understand better how hot a fire should burn in a given stove in order for it to burn clean? How will I know I'm doing it right? Based on this thread I'll probably end up going for the Alderlea T4, so I'll focus on looking up info for burning correctly in that, but if you have any further advice on that scenario I'd be appreciative.

And thanks to everyone here for all the input. Before looking into things I had no idea what a difficult decision this would be or how much I'd need to learn to make any kind of decision at all. I think I'd have made some regrettable mistakes if it hadn't been for this forum.

 

[stoveliker]

I don't think there is a general resource other than the manual of the stove. The thing that is most important is simply visual observation of what comes out of the chimney.

begreen has a lot of experience with Alderlea stoves (bigger model, but the same design).

 

[ctreitzell]

The hotter the fire, the cleaner it’s going to burn IME…a smoulder typically results in a dirty appliance; a roaring fire will burn the creo, but beware
over-firing!

Further, the amount of ash in the firebox greatly affects the heat output…a clean, firebox will be hottest

A firebox full of coals buried in ashes will burn (smoulder) much longer, yet a large portion of the heat will be blocked in by the ashes. That’s what happens with my all metal stove, anyway. Arriving at a balance of ash to coals to extend burn times and give good heat is what I’m always working toward.

 

[EbS-P]

Flue gas temps are a good way to know if you are burning clean.

I think having a good layer of ash insulates the bottom of the stove keeping the firebox temps higher allowing a cleaner burn while using less wood resulting in an overall lower heat output. Most of us find the burns better with a good layer of ash.

At the end of the day it’s all about flue gas temps. Once in coaling stage no creosote is produced so lower temps at that stage are fine.

 

[kborndale]

In my experience stoves burn better with ashes in them. When I clean out the ashes I never clean them all out (except when done burning for the year).