First wood stove, lots of questions

[elevensies]

My husband and I just bought our first wood stove, a Hearthstone Green Mountain 60. I've been all over these forums taking notes on everyone's experiences with this stove, good and bad. We're excited to get started and show this thing who's boss! We would have gone with a Blaze King Ashford if we had the space, but the GM60 is perfect for our awkward long/narrow living room, so here we are.

We haven't installed anything yet, and I'm hoping some of you might offer us some advice about what issues to look for in a floor model so we can get it fixed up before the install. The stove was sold to us as brand new, and it was only after we got it home that we found it's almost two years old and has probably been sitting on the showroom floor most of that time. I don't think it has any major/serious problems, but it needs a bit of refurbishing and I feel like I find a new issue every time I look at it. We have two main concerns that I'm hoping you all might help us with.

First, I've never used a cat stove, so I have no way of knowing if the catalysts have been damaged. In another thread some people had concerns about dust and moisture when storing spare catalysts. There is surface rust in a few areas inside the fire box, including the damper and other areas right next to the catalysts. Can catalysts corrode? They look a bit rusty, but to me, so do the photos of brand new ones. Could they have been damaged by sitting in a showroom for two years, with dust and who knows what else settling into them through the open flue collar?

Second, the paint has worn off in several areas, mostly on the top and around the handles, and we confirmed with Stove Bright that this is due to repeated cleaning and opening/closing of the handles when the paint had never been cured. We're going to repaint the whole stove, so that's sorted out, but my concern is that if there are issues with the paint because it was never cured, could there be issues with the furnace cement holding the sections of cast iron together? The owner's manual states that the furnace cement must be cured slowly to ensure adequate sealing and bonding, which has never happened. Could long-term exposure to humidity affect the ability of the furnace cement to properly bond when we light the first fire?

Thank you in advance for any advice you can offer!

 

[kborndale]

You haven't said anything about the most important factor in heating with wood. Do you have dry wood?

 

[elevensies]

Oh yes. I'd have to ask him about species, but we have about a cord out back that has been drying for 2-3 years. We''ll probably buy some "seasoned" wood soon to make sure we're ready for next winter, but he's an arborist so we have a pretty steady supply. The stove will be backup heat after our heat pump is installed, so we're hoping we can make the wood we have stretch this year.

 

[xman23]

You said it was a few year showroom stove. Hopefully unused. You have a stove, now the work. Have you figured out a location, chimney? Those decisions will make a big difference to the easy of use, heating and maintaining the stove and chimney. Who's installing? If your handy it can be a DIY. The stove and chimney manuals have instal details

 

[elevensies]

Yep, it's unused in the sense that it's never had a fire in it, and should be good as new with a paint job and a few replacement parts. Hopefully someone can help with an answer about the catalyst, because having never used one we’re just a little worried that we won’t recognize if it’s not operating as it should be.

We're definitely DIYers and installing everything ourselves. I've educated myself on code and all that. We have a 1500sf single-story ranch, which means a shorter chimney, and we know from all of the wonderful people on these forums who post so much good info (thank you!!) that we may encounter issues with draft. Our house is L-shaped, and the stove will be placed right in the center of where the two sides of the L meet, so we'll be at the peak of the roof and the center of the house. It will be a straight shot up, no elbows. I'm shopping for stove pipe and chimney now, and plan to go with Excel as long as I can find everything (any recommendations of online suppliers are appreciated). We’ll get double-wall stove pipe. The GM60 wants 15' of chimney from the floor, but we'll probably add just a bit to that. We’re at only 564ft of elevation, but we’re up on a hill and get strong winds from time to time, which may cause draft issues? I know there are chimney caps designed for wind, but is it better to get a regular cap for now and wait to see if I have a problem?

I bought a magnetic stove top thermometer, but I’m wondering if I should I also be getting a flue probe thermometer. I tend to dive pretty deep into the details and will get one eventually so I can measure the chimney draft, but is this something I should be doing from the start?

Being a 1960's ranch with walls between all the rooms, we're going to creative with fans to try to get the air to move around the house (we know to blow the cold air toward the stove, thank you again). We just had our gas service and meter removed, but the air handler for the furnace is still there, so we’ll also try running the fan through the ductwork to see if we can get heat distrubution that way, although it doesn’t seem like many people have had a lot of luck with that.

 

[xman23]

Sounds like you've done your homework. Yes, the guys here are very seasoned wood burners, so just look around here or ask. Hopefully the stove location has a good view from where spend most of your time. The largest room is normally the best, as the stove is very concentrated heat. It's not critical to be in the dead center of the house.

Close access to a few days of wood storage. I use a side covered porch.

The straight shot chimney is always the best for cleaning and draft. Just remember there are ceiling and roof rafters up there. The Class A double wall built for wood stoves are very good. Some here have a preference. Good to see DIY. Your going to save a lot of money.

As to the install watch all the clearances. Does the stove hearth require R value? Mine was just ember protection. So stone on the subfloor was fine. Some stoves have optional rear heat shields that allow reduced clearances. These stoves need to be off the wall, taking up floor space. I used a corner that wasn't going to be used for anything else.

You should do the normal curing burns. Just a few very small fires with the cat bypass mode. In bypass its just like a non cat stove. I couldn't imagine you have any cat issue. I'm not a Cat stove guy. But the EPA has made most manufacturers go to Cats.

 

[elevensies]

Our living room is large enough that we're not really sure what to do with about a third of it! The stove will be the focal point of the room, so it works out really well that it's the only place it would fit. We could have put it in the corner at the back of the room, but it wouldn't have been visible from the seating area, and we would have lost the advantage of the attic height which helps to make it look less like there's a spacecraft about to launch from our roof.

Thank you for the reminder about the rafters, I could see myself getting so caught up in getting the hearth built that I forget to make sure I'm lined up properly. I only need ember protection on the floor. The clearances to combustibles have stumped me a couple of times, because it seems like I'm seeing conflicting info, but I think I have it sorted out. The installation instructions allow for clearance reduction to the wall with NFPA 211 protected surface, so I'm going that route instead of getting the larger heat shield for the stove. I'm undecided between a sheet of cement backer board with a 1" air gap, or backer board with 1" of rockwool insulation. I like the insulation because it would be easier to put a narrow mantel along the top of it. I know the air gap is there because it would allow for convection with the space left open at the top and bottom... would this convection help to move the heat around the room, as a convection stove would, or is it only effective at keeping the heat off of the sheetrock?

Thank you for calming my worries about the cat and the curing. I've noticed a couple people on these threads talk about doing the curing burns outdoors with a section of flue pipe attached. This is an attractive idea since it will have a fresh coat of paint on it and I'm sensitive to chemicals. Does anyone advise against this for any reason?

 

[xman23]

The ceiling box transitions the stove pipe to the chimney above, is 12" x 12", so you always hit rafters. The box is structural, holding up all the downward weight of the chimney above. You just need to box the chase connecting it with double headers to the parallel rafters. Any good carpenter can do it. Just get the stove where it should be.

I have heard others discussing reduced clearance. As you found, standing off a fireproof wall, creating a 1" vented air space. I recall some said the metal screws would transfer the high heat to the back wall. I'm not sure what the correct construction would be. It seems like a lot of work, and may not look so good. The rear stove shield that I have does the same thing. It's impossible to see. Just looks like the back of the stove. It gets the cool air along the floor rising and out the top. I used single wall stove pipe up the the ceiling box. There's small stand off heat shield on that pipe. With the shields, all the dimensions worked out perfectly for the side/ rear corner clearance.

As to the startup smell. They do with each new stove high temperature. Maybe 3-5 burns. Yours with the home paint job, maybe a different animal. We just opened all the windows and got out. That stove doesn't move around very easy.

 

[begreen]

Air gap, no insulation. The air convecting behind the shield is what does the cooling. The shield needs to be open at the bottom and off the floor by an inch or two and open at the top to allow air to convect behind it. The spacers that hold the shield at least 1" off of the wall also need to be non-combustible. They can be ceramic, metal, or a strips of cement board. Short lengths of 3/8 or 1/2" copper pipe will do too.

Wood Stoves and Fireplaces - WOOD STOVE WALL CLEARANCES - PRIMER

 

[Hoytman]

If you want to know your draft and not guess you’ll need a manometer. A Dwyer Mark II model 25 will work just fine and is about $50.

You’ll need a manual stove pipe damper also, <$20. You may never need it, but it’s always there if and when you do.

Double wall stove pipe or not, it seems people often buy Hearthstone’s and are disappointed with burn times. Seems it comes up often on forums. Most times it’s because the stove is over drafting and not as controllable as it should be. Enter the manometer. If you do your homework ahead of time by calling Hearthstone and finding out the draft parameters of the stove then you’ll be able to take that information and check it against a reading of your manometer and then you’ll know exactly what your draft is rather than guess…and then you’ll also know if you need to use that manual pipe damper you already installed into your stove pipe….and you won’t have to let the fire die out, take the stove pipe apart and then install the manual damper.

All these manufacturers and other “talking heads” say not to install a stove pipe damper. Half of them never need it. Good for them. The other half always return to a forum complaining of short burn times and uncontrollable stoves…when all they had to do was a little more research, a little more preparation and planning, and install the pipe damper. There’s no law or rules saying you have to use it, but it’s there if and when you need it….and they’re cheap to boot. Be prepared, or be sorry. To me it’s a simple choice…for safety reasons as well as to help hold heat in the stove.

 

[elevensies]

I have heard others discussing reduced clearance. As you found, standing off a fireproof wall, creating a 1" vented air space. I recall some said the metal screws would transfer the high heat to the back wall. I'm not sure what the correct construction would be. It seems like a lot of work, and may not look so good. The rear stove shield that I have does the same thing. It's impossible to see. Just looks like the back of the stove. It gets the cool air along the floor rising and out the top. I used single wall stove pipe up the the ceiling box. There's small stand off heat shield on that pipe. With the shields, all the dimensions worked out perfectly for the side/ rear corner clearance.

As to the startup smell. They do with each new stove high temperature. Maybe 3-5 burns. Yours with the home paint job, maybe a different animal. We just opened all the windows and got out. That stove doesn't move around very easy.

I'm actually in the process of rebuilding the wall that will be behind the stove, so the construction doesn't bother me, but I do want it to look nice. I have a design in my head that I think I need to let go of, and I may be better off just getting the heat shield. Your setup looks great! Thank you for the advice. For now the stove is still in our garage on a dolly, so I think we'll light it up in the back yard after it's painted, at least for the first burn.

Air gap, no insulation. The air convecting behind the shield is what does the cooling.

Thank you... the air gap does make a lot more sense with that much heat.

If you want to know your draft and not guess you’ll need a manometer. A Dwyer Mark II model 25 will work just fine and is about $50.

You’ll need a manual stove pipe damper also, <$20. You may never need it, but it’s always there if and when you do.

Double wall stove pipe or not, it seems people often buy Hearthstone’s and are disappointed with burn times.

Thank you, I will order the manometer today. You make a good point about the damper, it's not a major investment if I don't end up needing it, but would save some hassle if I do. We definitely went back and forth quite a bit about whether to pull the trigger on this GM60, for a few different reasons, but in the end we were getting into analysis paralysis and decided to just try it and see what happens. There are also plenty of people who love them, so it seems like getting it to run well is dependent on the specific conditions where it's installed. We figured there's only one way to find out if we have those conditions. But we are looking at it as a fun experiment, so I like putting the damper in and playing around to see what happens. We were more concerned about not having enough draft, but we get such strong, steady winds sometimes that you never know.

 

[Hoytman]

The reason I brought that up was another fella on another forum had an issue with his GM60 (it was a Hearthstone regardless of model) and short burn times and had little control over the burn.

It didn’t take him long to swap out the GM60 for a BK King that he has turned out to love. That part is good.

He kept the Hearthstone and later let the cat out if the bag that it was windy where he lived. That’s when I asked him if he installed a manual pipe damper and he admittedly said he did not install a pipe damper. I’m not saying it would have cured his problem, but there’s a chance that it could have….for <$20. If it had have fixed the issue it would have saved him from spending another $5k on a 2nd stove in a months time. That’s near $10k spent on stoves in a month. What makes more sense to try to you? 😁

 

[elevensies]

The reason I brought that up was another fella on another forum had an issue with his GM60 (it was a Hearthstone regardless of model) and short burn times and had little control over the burn.

It didn’t take him long to swap out the GM60 for a BK King that he has turned out to love. That part is good.

He kept the Hearthstone and later let the cat out if the bag that it was windy where he lived. That’s when I asked him if he installed a manual pipe damper and he admittedly said he did not install a pipe damper. I’m not saying it would have cured his problem, but there’s a chance that it could have….for <$20. If it had have fixed the issue it would have saved him from spending another $5k on a 2nd stove in a months time. That’s near $10k spent on stoves in a month. What makes more sense to try to you? 😁

Thank you for sharing that experience, it honestly wouldn't have occurred to me since I'll have a shorter chimney and so many people have poor draft issues with the GM. I'm glad he ended up with a stove he loves... we all have to go through our own processes for figuring out what works for us. I'm sure there will be times when I'll wish I had knocked out a wall or something to make room for the Blaze King Ashford! We'll see.

 

[Hoytman]

Run that Hearthstone for awhile without the damper to get a good feel for how it runs. I mean study it and take notes including weather and stove temps from various locations in the stove. Learn how it functions, even if you think your burn times are short. Later on, try that pipe damper if you think you should and see how the stove reacts and record your findings.

Stone stoves are like a heavy locomotive. Takes them a while to charge with heat, but it takes a while to slow them down too. So be mindful of the lag time in front and at the end…and on the end learn to load before it gets too cool to keep the temperature up.

Report your findings back here. My guess is you’ll love this stove once you figure it out. That may mean employing that pipe damper, or not.

One last tip…some may disagree with me and that is fine, but stone, like clay chimney liners, are a natural earthen substance. I disagree with manufacturers suggesting quick hot fires in these stoves…even the cast iron stoves with stone linings. That’s a sure fire way to crack things and totally ruin them. First fires of the year and any cold start thereafter take it slow and easy with dry wood and small fires and gradually build heat into the stove and stone, then maintain that heat. Thermal shock is the enemy of clay and stone.

Enjoy that stove.

 

[elevensies]

Report your findings back here. My guess is you’ll love this stove once you figure it out. That may mean employing that pipe damper, or not.

Enjoy that stove.

I will do all of these things! I agree about thermal shock, and I'm certainly going to be careful when I do my first burn outdoors when the temps have been near freeing and it's been in my garage. I've had a dehumidifier out there that's kept the humidity in the low 40% range, so I'm hoping a space heater will get the garage and stove up to a good temp for painting and firing, so a bit less thermal shock. Thanks to all for all the great advice, I just ordered a flue probe thermometer in addition to the manometer and damper, and I'll definitely keep notes on weather, stove temps, wood species and moisture, etc, and post a review of the stove later.

 

[Hoytman]

For anyone reading this into the future…

Just add a small pile of dry kindling inside the stove and add some small sticks and/or shavings on top to light the fire from the top down. “Small pile” depends on the size of the firebox, but usually a 10”-12” size pipe of wood will suffice, about 6”-8” tall, volleyball to soccer ball size. Smaller is fine too. When in doubt keep it smaller and build into the heat.

As it burns and the kindling completely chars slowly add a few more sticks of kindling to the fire. As they begin to turn into glowing red coals then add more and finally a piece of split wood. Same thing it char black and fully catch on fire. Let that burn to coals and all the while monitoring stove temperatures as you go. A good slow fire will protect your stones from breaking and if it were me it might take an hour or more to get that stove good and hot under your first burn outside when it’s cold conditions. Once it’s inside the framework of the home, say a cold garage, also be careful and go slow. Once it’s cracked it’s too late.

I’m convinced that 98% of the time soapstone stoves and clay liners get cracked by moisture in the stones/clay and getting them hot far to quickly in a cold room/stove.

Others just do it…they light them off and in 15 minutes the stove is 500F. Hey…it’s your $3k-$5k investment, then treat it how you wish. I guarantee your stove and clay liner will last far longer if you’re patient. I feel the same way about cast iron stoves and even steel stoves.

A warm stove is totally different animal/discussion. Any stove or clay lined chimney will all last longer if you’re patient and gentle with them. If you have money to burn, then get it glowing red in 20 minutes, if that’s who you are.

I learned these things from men who have long been buried, many over 100 years old had they lived longer. It’s their information and wisdom I’m sharing, as well as my own…most often their wisdom rings true. Take it or leave it. The choice is yours.

 

[begreen]

No stove should be glowing red, but getting a steel stove up to temp in 15-30 minutes is not a big deal. Cast iron is pretty tough too. Cast iron manifolds go from below freezing to many hundreds of degrees in minutes when the car is started and running.

 

[all night moe]

Wise men translates to life experience.

 

[all night moe]

No stove should be glowing red, but getting a steel stove up to temp in 15-30 minutes is not a big deal. Cast iron is pretty tough too. Cast iron manifolds go from below freezing to many hundreds of degrees in minutes when the car is started and running.

And in those first few minutes, engines will also have cold spots. Spending a little extra time for an even temperature is worth the wait.
My 1st trade was spent turning wrenches. I've seen abuse. I'm sure a stove, no matter what the material/s, would benefit the same.

 

[Hoytman]

No stove should be glowing red, but getting a steel stove up to temp in 15-30 minutes is not a big deal. Cast iron is pretty tough too. Cast iron manifolds go from below freezing to many hundreds of degrees in minutes when the car is started and running.

I did say the choice was yours, take it or leave it. Manifolds are usually thicker too, and you’re referring to exhaust not the engine block which doesn’t heat up near as fast. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

Only ignorant people (which only implies not knowing what is best, not calling them stupid and being disrespectful…they are ignorant and there is a difference) start cars/trucks/tractors in cold weather and expose them to working loads. Most smart people allow them to warm up before putting them under load. I assume you also fit this latter category, I know I do.

You have to be able to discern what was written and decide the difference between what I was saying versus the stove sitting in your house, and I think I made that very clear.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Snow blowers are the only things I know that are yanked out of a cold garage at 5am, started, then thrown into 2 feet of wet snow immediately. They get no respect, lol.

 

[Hoytman]

Most of them get sold within a few years because they’re weren’t allowed to warm up properly before using them too. Once again, not exactly an apples to apples comparison with larger engines.
A 70F stove is mot a stove at zero or below. That’s all I was implying.

People that buy into these manufacturers recommendations of quick hot fires are typically following these recommendations because the government wants cleaner air…while the same people pushing these ideas fly about the world in their private jets. Just a fact of the times…

 

[begreen]

I did say the choice was yours, take it or leave it. Manifolds are usually thicker too, and you’re referring to exhaust not the engine block which doesn’t heat up near as fast. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

Only ignorant people (which only implies not knowing what is best, not calling them stupid and being disrespectful…they are ignorant and there is a difference) start cars/trucks/tractors in cold weather and expose them to working loads. Most smart people allow them to warm up before putting them under load. I assume you also fit this latter category, I know I do.

You have to be able to discern what was written and decide the difference between what I was saying versus the stove sitting in your house, and I think I made that very clear.

The point being that what applies to a soapstone stove does not always apply to others. There are tons of old steel stoves around still and lots of pot bellies that have gone through all sorts of use and at times abuse.

 

[Hoytman]

The point being that what applies to a soapstone stove does not always apply to others. There are tons of old steel stoves around still and lots of pot bellies that have gone through all sorts of use and at times abuse.

That is partially true, but the parameters change as well, mentioned below.

I was specifically talking about soapstone stoves and clay liners. That’s what I was directing my comments to.

Later in my writing I mentioned it as “my opinion” to include cast iron and steel stoves. Quite honestly, that was also the opinion of sage and wise old timers I’ve had the pleasure of being around. I also mentioned to take their advice or leave it. If you want to leave it, that is fine as well. If you want to talk about that separately, that is also fine, but what I said about cast iron stoves and steel stoves wasn’t the main focus of my comments, going slow with his first burn outside with his stove was the focus.

If you want to include a first burn outside with a steel stove, then I’d also recommend the same, but that would be a separate focus and the parameters do change because they’re not made of natural materials. Those parameters change the entire conversation quite a bit.

I’ve got a Hitzer 354 steel stove here at my place that had only 3-4 fires in it when I bought it. The bricks were mostly factory color, as well as the steel inside hadn’t even turned black or rusted yet…and it was cracked when I bought it. Just what do you think cracked this stove? Same thing with the Liberty I have, the secondary air supply in the back cracks from heat stress…likely getting too hot too fast or cooling too fast.

Same thing can happen to anything steel or cast iron. Either can take the heat if allowed to heat and expand slowly…they must cool the same way…slowly.

All a quick hot fire is good for impatient people and for satisfying the clean air police…who strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

By the way, most of the pot belly, and antique stoves, whether of similar pot belly (Army style thick cast iron) design…base heaters or base burners with their intricate thinner cast designs, it is absolutely rare to find a perfect antique stove. Usually something is cracked, be it the grates, fire pot, floor pan, barrel, top plates, or gas rings are cracked. Most often from heating too quick…and most often by some fool burning wood in them for extended periods like a raging inferno. Wood simply burns differently and gets far too hot quickly.

Conversely, an anthracite coal fire can get much hotter than a wood fire will if uncontrolled, but generally when a coal fore takes off the stove is already hot and therefore doesn’t do as much damage as a raging wood fire on a cold start. Most antiques collectors in the know will not burn wood in high end antique stoves and also recommend never to burn wood in them except to start a coal fire. Go to coalpail forum and ask those collectors if what I’m saying isn’t true.

Those old cannon stoves are everywhere. Most are cracked, some aren’t. You can burn wood in them, but you must not abuse the stove doing it. Common sense isn’t so common anymore. Fire consumes steel (think torch) and therefore heat stress is real, as is metal fatigue. Both over time will have their way with steel and cast iron. They will eventually wear out regardless of care using them.

 

[Hoytman]

The point being that what applies to a soapstone stove does not always apply to others. There are tons of old steel stoves around still and lots of pot bellies that have gone through all sorts of use and at times abuse.

I think I covered that and made those distinctions quite well in my first posting of suggestions. I don’t disagree with your quote above.