Fisher vs EPA

[Enplater]

I usually use an Englander 30 EPA stove rated at about 2400 sqft in my basement. I used to have an older grandma bear that I fixed up a little, I even hooked it up and ran it a couple times in the spring. I eventually sold it and found another grandma bear “wide body” that I fixed up a little.
About a week ago I hooked up the new Grandma and it works great. It puts out at least twice the heat my englander does even with the blower on high.
I’m wondering why is the Fisher rated for 1500 sqft and the Englander rated for 2400 yet the Fisher way outperforms in real heat output. Both stoves are being fed seasoned oak, good secondaries on the 30 using a moisture meter.
Also as expected the fisher usually smokes a little, goes through more wood, and doesn’t last as long. It also doesn’t have a baffle plate.
Are all epa tube stoves poor at radiating heat or just the 30?

 

[bholler]

I usually use an Englander 30 EPA stove rated at about 2400 sqft in my basement. I used to have an older grandma bear that I fixed up a little, I even hooked it up and ran it a couple times in the spring. I eventually sold it and found another grandma bear “wide body” that I fixed up a little.
About a week ago I hooked up the new Grandma and it works great. It puts out at least twice the heat my englander does even with the blower on high.
I’m wondering why is the Fisher rated for 1500 sqft and the Englander rated for 2400 yet the Fisher way outperforms in real heat output. Both stoves are being fed seasoned oak, good secondaries on the 30 using a moisture meter.
Also as expected the fisher usually smokes a little, goes through more wood, and doesn’t last as long. It also doesn’t have a baffle plate.
Are all epa tube stoves poor at radiating heat or just the 30?View attachment 257191

Your Fisher is going through wood faster than your 30. That means it has the potential to put out allot more heat even though it's efficiency is lower. It looks like you have uninsulated basement walls so to overcome that you will need massive BTUs.

 

[Enplater]

I like the fact that epa stoves can make the most of the wood and it’s smoke but even running at the same stove top temps the fisher radiates so much more heat. So much I can hover my hand about 2” off my englander but if I did that with the fisher it would be burning my skin, same stove top temps. It just doesn’t make sense.
it’s almost like the englander keeps all the heat inside the stove and doesn’t radiate it out well while that’s all the fisher does.

 

[bholler]

I like the fact that epa stoves can make the most of the wood and it’s smoke but even running at the same stove top temps the fisher radiates so much more heat. So much I can hover my hand about 2” off my englander but if I did that with the fisher it would be burning my skin, same stove top temps. It just doesn’t make sense.
it’s almost like the englander keeps all the heat inside the stove and doesn’t radiate it out well while that’s all the fisher does.

Your blower cuts down on radiant heat and converts it to convective heat. The sheilds on the Englander do the same. The Fisher is almost all radiant heat while the Englander is not. Neither is nessecarily better for every situation. You have to know which will work better in your situation. You also have to consider the fact that the Fisher was a top of the line steel stove in it's day and the 30 while a fantastic value and a good stove is nowhere near as efficient as many other higher end stoves. With inflation factored in I would bet the Fisher cost twice what the Englander did when new

 

[coaly]

The 1500 square feet was approximated for heating a home in Seattle Washington with less insulation, unknown window panes and 8 foot ceiling. Today with thicker walls, more insulation, and double pane thermal windows, it would heat a lot more. I don't know what building materials and what location Englander uses for the 2400 square foot calculation.

That Grandma was $465.

 

[bholler]

The 1500 square feet was approximated for heating a home in Seattle Washington with less insulation, unknown window panes and 8 foot ceiling. Today with thicker walls, more insulation, and double pane thermal windows, it would heat a lot more. I don't know what building materials and what location Englander uses for the 2400 square foot calculation.

That Grandma was $465

When was that 465? I am just curious to run the numbers and see if I am right. I could be completely off base

 

[coaly]

After 1980, consistent with 1982 prices. That retail price is on this price sheet with models made after 1980.


In comparison, a Mama that was 500 on this sheet was 300 in 1978. (UL listing cost)
Goldilocks on this sheet for 940. was 1,249. in 1985. Ads in papers show stoves increased approx. 25 - 30/ year from '75 to 85.

Goldilocks price fluctuated since it was for the stove and all installation parts including chimney kit from Dura-Vent. Kit consisted of Intake pipe with rodent guard, corrugated steel 4 x4 pad with UL brick cover and frame, stove, double wall stove connector with damper, double wall pipe to ceiling with telescopic support box connector, support box, flashing, two stainless triple wall chimney sections and cap with screen. That's why I went with that $1249 stove and kit in January 1985. The chimney lasted just over the 25 year warranty and the stove is like new. I may have replaced 3 or 4 bricks.

 

[Enplater]

Yeah so I’m going to use the fisher to burn the rest of some oak I have that’s really too short to go in the englander. It’s still amazing how much more heat the fisher gives off. Would a baffle plate minimize the heat output if one were installed? I can see why people never want to get rid of their fishers. It’s going to be interesting to see how much more crap is in the chimney using the fisher vs the englander.
I plan to move the englander upstairs someday anyway, maybe this summer. That will be plenty of stove to heat my house even with no blower on.

 

[bholler]

Yeah so I’m going to use the fisher to burn the rest of some oak I have that’s really too short to go in the englander. It’s still amazing how much more heat the fisher gives off. Would a baffle plate minimize the heat output if one were installed? I can see why people never want to get rid of their fishers. It’s going to be interesting to see how much more crap is in the chimney using the fisher vs the englander.
I plan to move the englander upstairs someday anyway, maybe this summer. That will be plenty of stove to heat my house even with no blower on.

I would never consider bringing my Fisher back into the house. Yes they crank out high BTUs when needed but for a pretty short peak. But every modern stove I have used destroys them in just about every other way.

 

[coaly]

The baffle moves the heat forward instead of getting so hot at the outlet area. It controls temp swings and the first thing I noticed was the lack of smoke much earlier in the burn. I wouldn't run one without it.

I use a Mama Bear in a log cabin that is outdoor temperature then I get there. I bring it up to temp slowly, then let it get hot enough to make it comfortable in a couple hours. A cold solid wall cabin takes a lot to bring it up to temp, so for the few days I'm there it keeps it just right. I have a Haughs smaller secondary burn stove there that will heat OK once up to temp, but it would need to be after the building is warmed up 24 hours to hold it there. It can't heat up the cold building. Plus the Fisher has a much larger top used for my only water heating and cooking. No comparison for the way I use it. If I lived in it full time, the smaller new stove could do it after the building mass starts radiating back in. I'd be there all the time to have better wood too. I just cut enough dead stuff to have in a rack for the next time I get there. Used to have to dig it out of the snow when I got there!

 

[Enplater]

That’s what I need, a cabin in the middle of nowhere to put this grandma bear in. Coaly has the right idea.
Anyways it’s still amazing to me how much better of a radiant heater old stoves are, I guess everything has a place.

 

[bholler]

That’s what I need, a cabin in the middle of nowhere to put this grandma bear in. Coaly has the right idea.
Anyways it’s still amazing to me how much better of a radiant heater old stoves are, I guess everything has a place.

That is why they need 36" of clearance. That doesn't work for most people leading to dangerous installs when people ignore those clearances. Which is why most new stoves are sheilded. Reducing clearances and converting some of that radiant heat to convective heat.

 

[coaly]

That’s what I need, a cabin in the middle of nowhere to put this grandma bear in. Coaly has the right idea.
Anyways it’s still amazing to me how much better of a radiant heater old stoves are, I guess everything has a place.

That is why they need 36" of clearance. That doesn't work for most people leading to dangerous installs when people ignore those clearances. Which is why most new stoves are sheilded. Reducing clearances and converting some of that radiant heat to convective heat.

I have 10 feet clearance all the way around it. It's called heated living space.

 

[bholler]

I have 10 feet clearance all the way around it. It's called heated living space.

Ok you do most people don't. I know I wouldn't want to make that much space in my home unusable all winter.

 

[SpaceBus]

The solution would be an EPA approved cast iron stove. There are several, I have one in my house. The cookstove is more convective and the house just doesn't feel as warm even though the thermo says 72df+ if the cast iron Morso is not burning.

 

[Enplater]

The englander is hooked back up. The fisher is great at producing heat, even without a blower fan but it goes through wood at the rapid rate and I’m sick of it already.
Hopefully this year I’ll be able to install another chimney on my main floor and move the Englander upstairs, maybe keep the fisher in the basement in case of emergencies.

 

[bholler]

The englander is hooked back up. The fisher is great at producing heat, even without a blower fan but it goes through wood at the rapid rate and I’m sick of it already.
Hopefully this year I’ll be able to install another chimney on my main floor and move the Englander upstairs, maybe keep the fisher in the basement in case of emergencies.

Pretty much my thoughts on running a Fisher as well.

 

[Enplater]

Yeah but it is fun to watch the smoke.

 

[kennyp2339]

The fisher is great at producing heat, even without a blower fan but it goes through wood at the rapid rate and I’m sick of it already.

I'm will to assume these sentiments is why countless people over the years came up with home remedies of using green wood to help achieve overnight burns in the 70's and 80's causing additional smoke and ultimately causing the need for cleaner burning stoves, including stoves that added additional fire bricks to the sides of the stove reducing the radiant heat, but creating higher fire box temps for a cleaner burn.