Flex liner and cleanout

[michaelreinard]

Hi all. It has been about 5 years since I was last here. Thanks to the advice on this forum I was able to self-install a flex liner, chimney cap, insulated throat plate and Osburn 2200 (or 2400?). I then spent 5 years remodeling the house and got the hearth room done just in time to sell it for someone else to enjoy.

The new house has an insert of some sort on the first floor living room (non-cat I think) and a big brick hearth pad in the finished basement. I plan on running another liner and installing a BK Princess or Ashford 30 in the basement. I'll be taking more exact measurements this weekend, but the chimney is probably about 30 feet, lined with 8" square terracotta. It's probably 65% within interior walls with the remainder on an outside wall above a roof line.

1. I am curious to find out if I'll have room to insulate the liner - and whether that is really necessary. I'm afraid that irregularities in terracotta or mortar could prohibit or tear up the insulation on the way down. Any thoughts considering the chimney is 65% interior?

2. The chimney has a clean out and I'm not sure what the heck to do with that since my last install was an insert. I understand what I need to do with the liner (A) and the tee (B), but do I need another stretch of liner below that (C) to take the pipe to the clean out? Do I need to put some kind of cap on it? There wouldn't be much room to get your hands down there considering it would be a 6" liner. I know that some people break up terracotta so they have more room with which to work, but I hope to not have to go that route.

Thanks, I couldn't find anything on the internet or this forum that answers #2 above.

 

[webby3650]

Your tee will have a cap on the bottom of it. You will take the stove pipe off and vacuum out the tee when you clean the flue. The stove pipe needs taken apart to be cleaned anyway.

 

[bholler]

if there is a clean out we always run liner down and install a second tee for the clean out. then we either put a cap on that tee or mortar the tee body in and gasket the clean out door.

 

[bholler]

1. I am curious to find out if I'll have room to insulate the liner - and whether that is really necessary. I'm afraid that irregularities in terracotta or mortar could prohibit or tear up the insulation on the way down. Any thoughts considering the chimney is 65% interior?

You will not have room for insulation you may not even have room for the liner. We would break the old liners out without question. As far as the need for it I really beleive every liner should be insulated. But the code requirement that is not debatable is for your chimney because it is internal you need 2" clearance to combustibles from the outside of the masonry structure. That means that you need a 2" space all the way around that chimney from top to bottom if you don't have that you are required to insulate the liner to meet code.

 

[webby3650]

if there is a clean out we always run liner down and install a second tee for the clean out. then we either put a cap on that tee or mortar the tee body in and gasket the clean out door.

Wow! Why? I don't get adding the extra materials to an already expensive job. Considering the stove pipe needs pulled to clean it anyway.

 

[bholler]

Wow! Why? I don't get adding the extra materials to an already expensive job. Considering the stove pipe needs pulled to clean it anyway.

For ease of inspection and service. Many times we will even add clean out doors for people if requested. Especially on exterior chimneys we try to get them in when ever possible. It means we can clean from the ground without much of any risk of getting dirt in the house.

 

[webby3650]

I just leave everything hooked while I sweep the flue, then pull the stove pipe. No mess.

I just don't see the point of having a clean out once it's lined.

 

[bholler]

I just leave everything hooked while I sweep the flue, then pull the stove pipe. No mess.

I just don't see the point of having a clean out once it's lined.

I really prefer to sweep with a rotary cleaner from the ground and lots of times you cant do that through the pipe like that. Having the clean out also greatly reduces the risk of stuff falling and blocking the flue. You have the clean out for exactly the same reason you did before it was lined to make service easier.

Are you saying you brush from the top and count on the pipe containing all the dust? I would not risk that myself I have seen way to much dust come out of pipe seams.

 

[webby3650]

I really prefer to sweep with a rotary cleaner from the ground and lots of times you cant do that through the pipe like that. Having the clean out also greatly reduces the risk of stuff falling and blocking the flue. You have the clean out for exactly the same reason you did before it was lined to make service easier.

Are you saying you brush from the top and count on the pipe containing all the dust? I would not risk that myself I have seen way to much dust come out of pipe seams.

I sure haven't seen that happen. We really only clean what we installed though anymore. Always double wall or welded seam pipe.

 

[bholler]

I sure haven't seen that happen. We really only clean what we installed though anymore. Always double wall or welded seam pipe.

Yeah we clean lots that we don't install. I see it plenty of times when I am cleaning from the bottom up through the stove. It usually is not much but I am not comfortable not being there to monitor it.

 

[webby3650]

Yeah we clean lots that we don't install. I see it plenty of times when I am cleaning from the bottom up through the stove. It usually is not much but I am not comfortable not being there to monitor it.

I can see that.

 

[Squisher]

I have often been cleaning up through the stove, up through the connecting pipe to the 'T' then I'll remove the connecting pipe(less creosote/soot spillage when removing it because it's already cleaned) then I'll clean up through the 'T' using a sheet to block the hole with my rods running through it and my vacuum end jammed in too. I do it like this to keep the angle/abrasion at the 'T' a little more forgiving to my rods.

 

[michaelreinard]

Thank you very much for the comments. I always thought that insulation was more necessary in exterior chimneys because the more dramatic temp/pressure changes caused creosote build up, but even that was mitigated where you had a tall chimney with a good draft like mine. Creosote should be less in interior chimneys, but I suppose that if you completely neglect your liner, a fire in an interior chimney is a much bigger problem than an exterior chimney, and the regs are probably meant to address that situation.

Can someone tell me when it became necessary to insulate a liner that is interior to the house? Code is code, but I am curious because I don't remember that being the case when I was looking 5 years ago. Is it a new thing nationally or in PA?

It's a shame because the clay tiles look straight and I know that the builder/prior owner did not use it much. I was planning on a $500-700 self install and this will be a heck of a lot more expensive.

 

[edyit]

Can someone tell me when it became necessary to insulate a liner that is interior to the house? Code is code, but I am curious because I don't remember that being the case when I was looking 5 years ago. Is it a new thing nationally or in PA?

if you don't have the required clearances from your chimney to combustibles, 2" interior 1" exterior, or if you have required clearances but the flue tiles are cracked then the liner must be insulated to meet code.

 

[bholler]

or if you have required clearances but the flue tiles are cracked then the liner must be insulated to meet code.

There is nothing in the codes about the condition or existence of clay tiles. Just clearance and meeting ul listing requirements.

Can someone tell me when it became necessary to insulate a liner that is interior to the house? Code is code, but I am curious because I don't remember that being the case when I was looking 5 years ago. Is it a new thing nationally or in PA?

Since ul started listing liners 25 to 30 years ago.

 

[edyit]

ok, i thought if you're tiles were cracked / broken you didn't meet requirements anymore

 

[bholler]

ok, i thought if you're tiles were cracked / broken you didn't meet requirements anymore

No problem it is a common misconception. Once you put a stainless liner in there that clay serves no purpos at all it just becomes part of the masonry structure as far as code is concerned.

 

[michaelreinard]

It took a year and a half but I'm finally getting back to this. In a couple weeks I have a pro coming over to take out my terracotta liner and run an insulated 6" liner. The job costs as much as a stove but what are you going to do? I can run a liner but I don't want to do the tear-out job. Cost of the tear-out job alone was 2/3rds of the job with the liner installed. Now I can move onto trying to find a summer deal on a BK Ashford 30.

I wanted to get back here and post this because the picture in my original post is totally wrong. The clean out is not connected to the basement chimney, but my other chimney/hearth. The upstairs fireplace, which currently holds an insert, must have had a slot that allows you to sweep the ash down into this cavity that can be accessed through the clean out door.