flue for regency Warm Hearth and Wxcalibur ex90 vs insulated

[chas045]

Hi folks, I have been reading many of your comments on flues for awhile. I've been burning wood many years; first in a Franklin stove or regular fireplace and then in an epa approved stove with insulated flue. I recently moved to North Carolina(from California) I plan to install an epa approved zero clearance fireplace on an outside wall (the only practical place) on the ground floor of a 2 story house plus atic with hip roof, ie no flat wall. I would like to attempt to heat the regular living area that includes the big living/dinette/kitchen and foyer/stair/hall-balcony that goes up 18 feet. The main opening to the foyer/stair is only 12 of from the fireplace in the big room. I plan to remove a window and place the fireplace on a slab or raised up support above a slab at and outside the removed window. I would build a 35' (probably insulated) chase giving about 30' of flue. The house was built with a similar structure on the other side for a small enclosed living room containing a builder box piece of useless garbage. I think we would roast (and freeze elsewhere) if I put an insert in there.

I see that you strongly suggest insulated flue. I have no limitations on fireplace model except for cost (which is pretty hefty anyway) and attractiveness (I am married and otherwise would probably have opted for a woodstove). I just saw the Regency Warm Hearth and Excalibur (we like it better). They both use air cooled pipe. In fact they tell me that they HAD to use air cooled flue to pass epa inspection. If they can use air cooled, why wouldn't others use it in preferance to insulated considering the dramatic cost difference? My builder box air cooled unit draws great (sucks the heat right out of my house).

So: what about the flue deal, and are these 2.5 cu ft units big enough for this area which including foyer is about 25' x 27'. I have the small living room with builder box) and a dining room at the far end. As i recall, you don't think much of forced air from epa unit to the dining or enclosed living room which are 25-30 ft away. Will I be able to heat the far away areas with ceiling fans or just forget about those rooms?

 

[webbie]

In central NC you should be fine with that size of firebox.

As to the insulated vs. air-cooled, this is obviously more important in New England or Michigan than in NC. But my guess is that the reason some companies use it is they want:
1. To keep the cost down
2. You have to buy their chimney, so they get a larger sale.

#1 is beneficial to you, of course!

As far as exactly how far the heat ends up moving, that if often a function of how much the stove is used. If you burn 24/7 the heat will spread pretty well, but a quickie start up is not likely to do much for the far away rooms.

You will be able to judge more once the unit is installed - and then decide on ceiling fans or a simple doorway fan, etc.

 

[Gooserider]

One advantage you potentially have with an EPA fireplace, as opposed to an insert, is that at least some of the fireplaces have provisions for attaching duct work to move the heat to other parts of the house more easily. Assuming you can find a unit with sufficient WAF, and which has the ducting, you may be able to heat most of your house with it. Remember that NC is mostly a fairly mild climate, so you don't have as much demand as us Yankees do...

Gooserider

 

[chas045]

Thanks for the quick response folks.
I believe that these units do have provision for piped heat to other rooms. Do you think it might be worthwhile to run 30' thru the crawlspace (no basement)? In my old house with stove in small room, I found the little tringular fan in the door to be a total waste of money (we didn't have the height for ceiling fans). In NC almost all houses have ceiling fans and they move air better, I think.
I am still concerned about the air cooled flue vs insulated. Do you think that these units wouldn't pass epa with insulated flue signiifies something special or important or negative about them. And again, why wouldn't other units have the same advantages/disadvantages?

 

[yurij]

I also have been researching the air-cooled vs insulated issue and here are the fruits of my labor:
1) insulated provides a better draft. the gases stay hotter as they vent up. air-cooled cools them down as they travel up. if the pipe is in an exterior chase, this only magnifies the issue. and the colder the external temperature is the more pronounced the effect is. if this effect enough to make a poor draft? don't know.
2) when the unit is not in use, some air-cooled pipes dump the cold air traveling down the pipe (between the 2 walls) onto the unit. and if the unit is not sealed in its enclosure, the cold air leaks into the house. you have an inverse fireplace. triple wall pipe does not have this problem.
3) some manufacturer's require you to use their insulated (and expensive) pipe. otherwise warranties and permits are voided.
4) a universal recommendation is that an exterior chase needs to be insulated when you are in colder climates.

That said, the unit I settled on only comes in triple-wall air cooled pipe only. But that was a factor in deciding which unit to purchase. I would've preferred insulated pipe.

 

[chas045]

Yuri,
I was actually thinking partially of your posts when I submitted my question. What stove or fireplace are you running? But my question about failure of insulated to get epa approval in the units I am looking at and maybe your unit is still unclear.

 

[yurij]

Chas - I am going with the VC Sequoia (the EWF36A). This is a CAT built-in fireplace and requires VC's triple-wall pipe. It does not have the down-draft issue when not in use (the last wall provides a return path out to the top). I liked the look, especially the large viewing area. I will be a weekend burner. Its getting installed 12/10.
I am confused about what you mean about failure to get EPA approval if you are not using insulated pipe.
Some EPA certified units require a certain pipe. The unit will probably burn just as well with another pipe, but its not up to code and you won't get a CO if you use something other than what was specified in the manual. And no CO also means no insurance. It may even be dangerous. Separately, different pipes have different ways of connecting to the the unit so it may not even be possible.
Other EPA certified units allow a variety of pipes. These units are certified with any of those pipes, even if its a general pipe description (use 6" High Temperature SS,....).
I hope this answers your question.

 

[chas045]

I will take a look at the Sequoia.
I guess I wasn't specific on my question. The Regency technical rep claims that they attempted to have their units approved with insulated and non insulated flue (and failed with insulated). I am wondering why that is, and if it might be true for your unit or others as well. It seems to suggest that non-insulated pipe creates improved efficiency and if true should be topic number one on this site.

 

[yurij]

Chas - FYI, the insulated fireplace I was also looking at was the BIS Tradition/Lennox Monticeto Estate. But the assertion that a unit could get certified with one type of pipe and fail using the other is surprising. I believe these tests are done in a controlled environment and having "cold" air surrounding the pipe is not part of the test. So draft issues should not be relevant. Then the only other issues would be the maximum temperature the pipe can handle due to flue gases. I have not read anything that air-cooled can handle hotter flue gases than an insulated pipe, and given that several EPA stoves let you use either tells me that must have very similar temperature characteristics so this is also unlikely.
I think the real reason is that getting a unit EPA certified costs $$ that the manufacturer would rather not spend, hence they minimize the # of configurations they get it certified in. And if the manufacturer also sells a line of pipe... In fact, I don't think I have seen a company that makes pipe and stoves/fireplaces (EPA certified) that lets you use any other pipe with their stove.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for the quick response folks.
I believe that these units do have provision for piped heat to other rooms. Do you think it might be worthwhile to run 30' thru the crawlspace (no basement)? In my old house with stove in small room, I found the little tringular fan in the door to be a total waste of money (we didn't have the height for ceiling fans). In NC almost all houses have ceiling fans and they move air better, I think.
I am still concerned about the air cooled flue vs insulated. Do you think that these units wouldn't pass epa with insulated flue signiifies something special or important or negative about them. And again, why wouldn't other units have the same advantages/disadvantages?

The downside of trying to move heat through ducting is that the duct losses can be a killer. The only way I would consider trying to do ducted heat distribution would be if the duct was either inside the "heat envelope" of the home so that any losses still make a contribution to your heating (the prefered approach), or if the ducts were very heavily insulated and properly installed to be as free from losses as possible. (Note that I would apply this to any sort of HVAC ducting...)

The whole question of heat distribution is an "art form" every setup seems to be different, and while we have some general suggested rules of thumb, there are posters that have exceptions to every one of them. You name the approach, and it seems like we will have some posters that it works great for, and others with seemingly similar setups that it doesn't - all we can say is experiment...

I don't like the notion of air-cooled pipe in general, but that is mostly untrained opinion, I don't have any first hand experience with it. I would note though that I seem to see more posts here from people having problems with air cooled setups than I do with solid pipes.

Gooserider

 

[chas045]

Well, I suppose the Regency tech person could boldy lie. The unit is listed to go with Majestic SK8, Security FTF8, Superior TF8 and Simpson DuraVent Dura-Plus. These aren't all Regency (FPI) flue are they?

 

[chas045]

Gooserider,
Sorry, I didn't realize you had posted. Thanks for the ducting comments. I already suspected it might be easier to rely on the ceiling fans.
I would still like to hear if anyone knows more about failures for insulated flue.

 

[stgaah]

The Warm Hearth Z2510 is approved for use with only insulated class A chimney. The Warm Hearth Plus R90 and EX90 (Excalibur version) can use air cooled pipe or Dura-vent Dura-Plus. Dura-Plus is a class A insulated chimney.