for newbees, FYI, the difference between old time stoves and epa rated non cats or epa cats

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eernest4

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Hearth Supporter
Oct 22, 2007
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netzero.com
The terminoligy and new techonoligy seen here can be like almost a foriegn language to some people not fimiliar with the new stoves and so i am going to write you a little guide. I am a newbee here too, but I had a need to read and learn.

Old stoves, now called non epa rated or not epa stoves...... these are the old time stoves that can put out a chimney full of smoke, which is actually your fuel, just blowing up the chimney and smoking out the neighborhood. They can maybe manage 35 % efficency and waste 65%
of your heat and wood. They might be upgraded to maybe 45% efficency by adding on a magic heat smoke stack heat reclaimer. THey only have a primary air control,non heated and a chimney damper plate in the smoke stack. They use 1850 technoligy and are 157 years behind
the times.They do not have blowers and heat mostly by radiant head with only nominal convection heat. They may or may not have a glass flame viewing area, usually not.



epa rated non catalitic stoves:
have pretty viewing glass to see flames

run 62 to 89% efficient

save you fuel costs by giving the same heat with 1/2 the wood

no smoke up the chimney, if opperated properly.
important if you have nearby neighbors.

have variable speed blower motors and heat exchangers

heat by both radiation and hot air convection, but mostly hot air convection.

have preheated dual primary and secondary air controls that are conbined into 1 easy 2 use opperating lever.
*************
NON CAT EPA RATED STOVES
use preheated primary air as well as preheated secondary air. The preheated secondary air supplies a secondary smoke combustion chamber whose purpose is to burn up the smoke from the primary combustion chamber and extract additional heat from it to further warm the heat exchanger. The secondary smoke combustion chamber is located directly above the primary combustion chamber and heated by it.

terms
primary combustion chamber= firebox ,where the wood goes.
primary air control , provides measured preheated air to the primary combustion chamber.
secondary combustion chamber= above primary combustion chamber and heated by it to burn up the smoke from the primary chamber and further heat the heat exchanger.
secondary air control= provides measured preheated air to the secondary combustion.
heat exchanger= located above both the primary and secondary combustion chambers and recieving heat from both of them, cold air from your room is fan forced through the inside of these pipes, well warmed and released back into your room.

variable speed room air circulator fan= blows cold room air thru heat exchanger and back into room as hot air.

Catilitic converter epa rated stove:

has all of the features and qualities on the non cat stove above except that:

there is no secondary combustion chamber but instead, a catalyic converter like in your car
whose purpose is to burn up the smoke before the smoke can go up the chimney.
The catalyic converter also produces heat to help warm the heat exchanger and is about as efficient or maybe more efficient, depending on make and model, than the non-cat stove,
but not by much , either way.

The major differince is the catalytic converter is relatively easily damaged and may only last up to 3 years and costs $150.oo or more to replace.

This every 3 or 4 yr repair bill can be avoided by buying the non-cat epa rated stove.
 
I wish I was an expert, I only join this forum 2 weeks ago, but I read what i see here and try to write it down so that other people can understand more easyier.

also info deep buried here, like gold in the yukon and need to be dug up , so i thought I save my readers the trouble of the pick & shovel work.

north of 58
 
eernest4 said:
I wish I was an expert, I only join this forum 2 weeks ago, but I read what i see here and try to write it down so that other people can understand more easyier.

also info deep buried here, like gold in the yukon and need to be dug up , so i thought I save my readers the trouble of the pick & shovel work.

north of 58

eernest4,
If consolidating what you learned here persuades one person to get an EPA approved stove then it was worth the effort. Not to mention that anytime you take the effort to write something down you are more likely to remember it, which will make it easier to spread the good word in your "real life".

While I had a rough idea of most of this you've reinforced it for me. Thanks for taking the time.
~Cath
 
eernest4 said:
I wish I was an expert, I only join this forum 2 weeks ago, but I read what i see here and try to write it down so that other people can understand more easyier.

also info deep buried here, like gold in the yukon and need to be dug up , so i thought I save my readers the trouble of the pick & shovel work.

north of 58

Sorry didnt think of your readers. I guess with all that reading you will be trading in your non-certified non-cat non-epa stove
that is the main heat source in your home. Nothin personal. :red:
 
I dont think any stove dealer would take that 1/4inch plate steel rust bucket for trade, id have to sell it for scrape weight of steel and so far. i have not seen a epa non cat above 90,000 btu which would be too little heat by half.

I may have to look at a hot air add on furnace, maybe for summer 2008 i be ready to switch out.

by the way you mentioned something about coverage in another post , could you p.m. me
about what that was susposed to mean?
 
I think I posted an efficiency chart from a test lab (a picture of it) recently somewhere on the forum.

Let me, as an expert, just distill a little bit of ee's post....

1. Doubtful that any woodstove can actually produce 89% efficiency into the heated area. The test labs have found about 70% to be a good number to use on newer EPA stoves.
2. Older non-epa woodstoves, for instance a Fisher, and Upland or a Jotul 602 can vary greatly in efficiency, but I think the test lab has found that they are 45%-60% when run according to similar tests (EPA testing). A smaller stove like the 602 (old) run fairly hot, with some stovepipe in the room can be at the upper end, while a big beast steel stove may be at the low end (my guess).

A "non airtight" stove like a Franklin would probably be worse even still, maybe 35-40% if lucky with doors closed and a stack damper.

One big potential advantage is how clean the burn is and how much less creosote (and therefore danger) is produced by EPA stoves. For instance, a cleaner car might get double the MPG as another, but reduce emissions by 75%.....same with stoves. So while a new stove may only be 30% more efficient than the last generation, it reduces the smoke a lot more than 30%. Burned properly, a modern stove could reduce the smoke by 90% (40 grams per hour for dirty older stove vs. 4 grams per hour for newer stove).......not talking about EPA ratings here, but in-home use.

Bottom line - everything is better with a newer stove...meaning, in general, one built from 1988 on.
 
driftwood,

my computer would let me select the article and copy but when i got to the new page i created in wiki by clicking on your link, my computer (paste) was faded out on the pop up left click menu, so I was unable to copy and paste the info . maybe you know know another way how to copy and paste or your computer will allow you to do it.

i can't manage it ,it would be nice if you could give it a try. i really not up to typing it yet again today. getting sleepy. copy & paste the way to go, if you can.
 
eernest4 said:
I dont think any stove dealer would take that 1/4inch plate steel rust bucket for trade, id have to sell it for scrape weight of steel and so far. i have not seen a epa non cat above 90,000 btu which would be too little heat by half.

I may have to look at a hot air add on furnace, maybe for summer 2008 i be ready to switch out.

by the way you mentioned something about coverage in another post , could you p.m. me
about what that was susposed to mean?

HOW ARE YOU BEING COVERED BY HOUSE INSURANCE? RE; FIRE-----ect Theres been no inspection on your stove install and your insurance company must not know this is your primary source . NO reason to PM you. Your readers can learn from this.
 
eernest4 said:
i have not seen a epa non cat above 90,000 btu which would be too little heat by half.

This could be a real flame thrower. 100,000 BTU. Time to head that 1/4inch plate steel rust bucket old smoke dragon on down the road to the steel and iron scrapyard for shippment to China!

Coming November 2007! Hearthstone announces the addition of a truly "size large" soapstone woodstove capable of heating 3,000+ sq.ft. The Equinox features soapstone tiles for soothing, radiant heating, and the side loading door allows you to stoke the fire with logs up to 26 inches long. A powerful wood stove with a giant 4 cubic foot firebox, this powerful workhorse achieved a remarkable 3.1 grams/hr EPA Phase II emissions rating using reliable non-catalytic technology.

Heating Efficiency:72%
Particulate Emissions:3.1 grams/hr
Maximum Output:100,000 BTU/hr
Heating Capacity:3000+ sq. ft.
Hardwood Capacity:Firebox Size4 cu. ft.
80 lbs
Maximum Log Length:26"
Dimensions:29"T x 33-2/3"W x 25-1/2"D
Shipping Weight: 690 lbs

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/images/lgequinox.jpg)

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hsequinox.htm
 
Webmaster said:
Wait, do I understand ee is saying he needs 180,000 BTU per hour to heat his house?

Hmm, let's see - that would be about 500 lbs of wood per day, or at least a cord a week.

Sounds like a leaky house...

I know. I started to respond that a house with a roof on it would be much easier to heat.
 
eernest4 said:
driftwood,

my computer would let me select the article and copy but when i got to the new page i created in wiki by clicking on your link, my computer (paste) was faded out on the pop up left click menu, so I was unable to copy and paste the info . maybe you know know another way how to copy and paste or your computer will allow you to do it.

i can't manage it ,it would be nice if you could give it a try. i really not up to typing it yet again today. getting sleepy. copy & paste the way to go, if you can.

Done! Check it out. I sometimes copy to and type in a Word 2003 Program and then past to a new post after spell check.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/ind..._and_new_Wood_stove_technology_for_a_newbie./
 
The Equinox looks awesome.

My back hurts just looking at it. When we moved the Mansfield in the basement it was a first place battle of grunt and groan at 550lbs but 690lbs takes it to another level of pain.

If I had the house to fit it I would buy one.

That thing just looks tough in a good way :)
 
If ee is groaning about a $2500 pellet stove, the pricetag on an Equinox could do him in.
 
BeGreen said:
If ee is groaning about a $2500 pellet stove, the pricetag on an Equinox could do him in.


He could always sell his car. :cheese:
 
IMHO, this is an EXCELLENT start, but has a lot of problems as a general statement - a good bit of it seems model specific, rather than general. I will add in some suggested changes that I think will make it better and more useful as a guide. I hope you will also put the changes into the Wiki article... (I've also done a little bit on fixing minor punctuation, haven't marked those changes...)

[quote author="eernest4" date="1193510012"]The terminoligy and new techonoligy seen here can be like almost a foriegn language to some people not fimiliar with the new stoves and so i am going to write you a little guide. I am a newbee here too, but I had a need to read and learn.

Old stoves, now called non epa rated or not epa stoves also refered to in the threads as "smoke dragons" or "Pre-EPA stoves...... these are the old time stoves that can put out a chimney full of smoke, which is actually your fuel, just blowing up the chimney and smoking out the neighborhood. They can maybe manage 35 % efficency and waste 65% of your heat and wood. They might be upgraded to maybe 45% efficency by adding on a magic heat smoke stack heat reclaimer. At the cost of greatly increased creosote production They usually only have a primary air control,non heated and a chimney damper plate in the smoke stack.Some models made efforts to encourage secondary combustion, but most did not accomplish this very well. They use 1850 technoligy and are 157 years behind the times.
This line is not very accurate... replace They do not have blowers and heat mostly by radiant head with only nominal convection heat. They may or may not have a glass flame viewing area, usually not.They may or may not have blowers and could use either convection or radiant heat, depending on the model. Many don't have windows, and on the models that do the windows tended to smoke up rapidly

EPA rated Non-catalytic or "Secondary burn" stoves:

Have pretty viewing glass to see flames,and have "air wash" systems that blow hot air across the glass to minimize soot buildup, so that they only occasionally require cleaning
Run 62 to 89% efficient Actually about 70% net, according to Web
Save you fuel costs by giving the same heat with 1/2 the wood The figure I generally hear used is more like 1/3 LESS wood, or "giving the same heat w/ 2/3 of the wood."
novery little smoke up the chimney, if opperated properly.mostly only during startups and reloading important if you have nearby neighbors.
SOME, depending on the modelhave variable speed blower motors and heat exchangers
Wrong! can heat using either, or a combination, depends very much on the individual model! heat by both radiation and hot air convection, but mostly hot air convection.
This line is mostly wrong have preheated dual primary and secondary air controls that are conbined into 1 easy 2 use opperating lever. Have a single user controlled primary air lever, and a preset or automatically controlled secondary air supply. Both deliver pre-heated air to the firebox
This doesn't seem like a very clear description, and again is a bit model specific, I'd replace itNON CAT EPA RATED STOVES
use preheated primary air as well as preheated secondary air. The preheated secondary air supplies a secondary smoke combustion chamber whose purpose is to burn up the smoke from the primary combustion chamber and extract additional heat from it to further warm the heat exchanger. The secondary smoke combustion chamber is located directly above the primary combustion chamber and heated by it.Some models have seperate secondary combustion chambers where pre-heated air is mixed with the smoke to finish burning it. Most models have secondary combustion tubes in the main firebox that add additional air into the space above the wood to burn the extra combustion gasses. These models are noted for their spectacular flame displays.

Terms:
primary combustion chamber= firebox ,where the wood goes.
primary air control , provides measured preheated air to the primary combustion chamber.
secondary combustion chamber= above primary combustion chamber in most models and heated by it to burn up the smoke from the primary chamber and further heat the heat exchanger. usually not a seperate chamber, but rather the area above the fire in the primary combustion chamber
secondary air control= provides measured preheated air to the secondary combustion. usually not directly controllable, may be thermostatically controlled, or may be a fixed opening.
heat exchanger= located above both the primary and secondary combustion chambers and recieving heat from both of them, cold air from your room is fan forced through the inside of these pipes, well warmed and released back into your room. WHAT??? Perhaps on a couple of stoves, and more so on inserts, but NOT normally seen on any models that I'm familiar with!
variable speed room air circulator fan= blows cold room air thru heat exchanger and back into room as hot air. (only on some stoves and most inserts)

Catalyitic converter epa rated stove:
Out of space, will continue in next post...

Gooserider
 
Continued....

Catalyitic converter epa rated stove:
Has all of the features and qualities on the non cat stove above except that:

almostthere is no secondary combustion chamber but instead, a catalyic converter like in your car
whose purpose is to burn up the smoke before the smoke can go up the chimney. Instead of the secondary combustion tubes, has a seperate chamber with a catalyic converter (like in your car) that mixes additional air with the smoke to burn it before it goes up the chimney

sort ofThe catalyic converter also produces heat to help warm the heat exchanger and is about as efficient or maybe more efficient, depending on make and model, than the non-cat stove,
but not by much , either way.The catalytic converter process contributes to the stove's heating, and a cat stove may provide slightly longer burn times than a similarly sized secondary combustion stove, but not by a large amount.

VERY BIASED!!! Replace w/ more neutral language. The major differince is the catalytic converter is relatively easily damaged and may only last up to 3 years and costs $150.oo or more to replace.The catalyst is somewhat fragile, and can be damaged by misuse, particularly by burning things other than properly seasoned firewood (the ONLY thing that should ever be burned in a stove) It is a consumable item that requires periodic replacement to maintain the clean burning ability of the stove.

Only partly true!This every 3 or 4 yr repair bill can be avoided by buying the non-cat epa rated stove.
Due to their increased internal operating temperatures, both cat and non-cat stoves have a tendency to require periodic repair / replacement of their internal parts. The cat in a cat stove tends to wear out, as do the burner tubes, baffles and other parts in a secondary combustion stove, particularly if over-fired. An approximately equal amount should be planned on for maintainance regardless of stove type.

Gooserider
 
so that was very good to read, and have a good idea about the new stoves (since 1988) and am thinking it might be nice to look into this...would go with non cat EPA and was interested in that Equinox if it can do 3000 SF, and we'd get more out of our cords to boot, we have red oak CSD. Not cheap but the guy brings solid wood, hardly any punkers, and almost always more than a 4 x 4 x 8 full cord, he is great!
 
I'm still learning.......................
 
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