Freestanding in fireplace--is this true?

[newbie21]

I went to a showroom today to look at Napolean wood stoves. I want to put a freestanding in my existing masonry fireplace. The guy told me that I can't, because you need clearance from the top of the unit. So he tried to sell me an insert, which I really don't want. The fireplace is lined with fire brick--why would you need clearance? It doesn't sound right to me. How much clearance would you need in that situation (rear, sides, top)?

Also, I could use a little advice about which model to get. We went to another dealer and they have two freestanding Napolean wood stove models, the 1600c and the 1100c (they said that we should be able to put a freestanding in our fireplace). We are unsure which one we would want to get. We would only have an inch of top clearance with the 1100c, whereas with the 1600c would give us 6 inches. The 1100c is about $550 cheaper, with steel inner lining instead of all cast iron. The 1100c has fewer emmissions, but the 1600c has a double door which seems like it would be annoying. We would have to extend the hearth about 8 inches for the 1600c.

We may end up having to get the 1600c because the pipe comes out the back and the 1100c's comes out the top--it may be that the 1100c won't fit. But if it does fit, would it be worth saving $550 by buying the 1100c?

Oh, and how much should a liner kit for a two story house cost? One place quoted me $500, the other $600, both with around $500 for install.

Thanks, guys.

 

[begreen]

Is there a mantel or woodwork above the firebox opening? That could be what the dealer was cautioning about. There are good inserts out there too. You will need a blower to get good heat from them but they are a good option if this is an issue.

If you can you post a picture of the current fireplace it would be helpful to visualize the installation.

Have you had a chance to look at other stoves besides the Napoleons? Have you priced out any of the other recommended stoves like the PE T5? It's several inches lower than the 1100c.

 

[jadm]

If you decide to go with an insert check ones that have blowers mounted on the front of them as they are easier to clean. If you don't keep them clean they wear out more quickly. I know the Napoleon 1101 insert has the blower mounted in the back which means the entire unit has to be pulled out of the fireplace to reach it to clean. Bad design in my humble opinion which is one of the reasons I just bought a Jotul insert..

 

[newbie21]

I'm at work so I don't have access to my camera (I did take pics of the fireplace but haven't uploaded them yet) but I will post them later. The wood mantle is about 6-8 inches above the opening of the fireplace.

What got me was that the one dealer was saying that I need clearance BEHIND the unit. First of all, the 1100c is meant to put its heat out the front and sides, not the back. Second, behind the unit would be fire brick. I don't think that's right, but I don't know that much about this stuff.

As far as choosing between the units, what is the benefit of having a full cast iron stove rather than a steel box inside a cast iron stove?

 

[newbie21]

Oh, and I think the PE t5 is an awesome stove and would want to get it, but it goes back to the whole issue with the pipe and how my fireplace is configured. I don't know if we can get a freestanding where the pipe is a full 10 inches from the back of the unit. If so, the T5 is a definite possibility. Otherwise we may be going with the napoleon 1600c (although I hesitate since there are no reviews of it on this site). I really like how the top of the T5 swings out for a cookspace. It's also a steel box surrounded by cast iron like the 1100c--is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[begreen]

From the description, it does sound like the mantel will be an issue even for some inserts. However, this may be addressable with a heat shield. It will be easier to judge from the pictures. In the meantime, you might download the manuals for stoves that interest you and read up on the installation guidelines. From what has been indicated so far, it seems a freestanding stove like the T5 should work well.

You are correct, the stove back clearance is to combustibles, not firebrick. Regardless, the stoves you are looking at have excellent rear heat shielding and close installation clearances. This doesn't seem like it will be an issue. If necessary there can be an offset to connect to the stove, but again, it may not be necessary. It would be good to have the PE dealer confirm that it is even required for this installation.

A good steel stove should last at least as long as a good cast iron stove. Both Jotul and PE stoves have simple designs that are low maintenance and made to last. What you want to avoid is an inexpensive stove that will warp or crack or that will be high maintenance in a few years. In this case I would give PE T5 a nod over the Napoleon 1100c as the stouter stove with greater capacity. But ultimately, it's up to your budget. Regardless of choice, do think of this as a long term investment. Go for a quality stove with a quality installation and you will be satisfied for many years.

 

[newbie21]

The installation manuals are confusing me. First, I don't understand what single and double wall connectors are (sorry, I'm really new). Second, would the top clearance be about the same as the side clearance? If so, I may have a problem. I have about 13" clearance from the top of a 28" tall model. However, the Jotul Oslo has an optional short leg accessory especially for fireplace installations, perhaps lowering it enough. We haven't gone to the Jotul dealer yet, though--they're a little farther away.

 

[STOVEGUY11]

Single wall pipe has 18" clearances, while double wall or close clearance pipe has 6" clearances.

 

[begreen]

Sorry if it's confusing. Some stove manuals have clearances for fireplace mantels in them. That is the only dimension you need to worry about for now. If the stove is in the fireplace it will be connected to a singlewall liner. Don't worry about back or side clearances for now, it's likely that only the mantel shielding will be an issue. With a picture we can tell better.

 

[granpajohn]

...you need clearance from the top of the unit. So he tried to sell me an insert, which I really don't want.

We're all thinking clearance to combustible, but he may have been refering to the room needed to get the thing into the FP.
I'm no pro, but I went through all the same reasoning before settling on the insert. You're on to something with the shorter leg kit. My advice is to measure very carefully, and then think about how you will go about fitting it in and hooking it to the chimney liner. Also think about how you will clean the liner every year. Would you have to pull the 450 pound stove out every year? Not an option for me. (Some do it though.)
The clearance to the wood mantle is very clearly drawn in the Jotul stove manuals. Take a look at that. Also, if it was a non-combustible (say stone) mantle, consider if you are in the habit of placing combustible items, such as birthday cards, on it. (Might be OK, just something to think through.)
Just a few thoughts. You're on the right track.

 

[newbie21]

First I want to thank you all for helping me so much. I just had the guy from one of the dealers in here looking at our fireplace. Its not really so deep, so we may need to either go with an insert, get a heat shield for the top, or put a hood on the top lip of the fireplace opening to protect our mantle. Our mantle is 41 inches from the bottom of the fireplace opening, so if we got the shorter legs for a Jotul (which offers a rear w/top exit heat shield but not a top heat shield), it would be a 15 inch clearance. The manuals are calling for 30 inches, if I'm reading correctly. I don't know how much extra clearance a top heat shield would give us (a lot, I hope).

I uploaded a photo of our fireplace. I guess it should appear to the left? I don't know if you can see, but the mantle sticks out less than 3 inches from the brick, and the wood below the actual mantle (the whole 5 ft W x 1 ft H piece) only sticks out 5/8 inch, so that might fall under "trim" rather than "mantle" category. Then our mantle would actually be 55 inches above the hearth.

 

[Mike Wilson]

The wood mantle is about 6-8 inches above the opening of the fireplace.

You have a bit of an issue with that mantel.

Whatever you do, check the vertical clearance of whatever insert or stove you buy, distance from the top of the unit to the bottom of the mantle. I think you'll find that you will be removing your mantle.

For comparison, here's a clip from my owner's manual regarding distance to the mantel:

 

[newbie21]

Thanks for the section of the manual, that helps.

Do you think a vertical combustible material clearance would differ from a mantle clearance? I would think that the mantle, since it sticks out, would trap heat and get hotter than trim that sticks out less than an inch would. The mantle itself only sticks out 2.5 inches. Of course I want to err on the side of safety. *Actually, looking at the manual again, I think the clearance for anything LESS than 3.5 is still 51". I have only 42". I can get the mantle heat shield, however.

I have no problems with extending my hearth into the room, so maybe even a stove with a rear shield that is installed on the hearth, out of the fireplace, would work.

I can't see us ripping out an original, c. 1800 mantle. I would really like to work around it, if possible.

 

[begreen]

That doesn't look like too serious an issue. I'm wondering if a small heat shield could be screwed to the underside of the metal lintel. It shouldn't have to project more than a few inches with the shallow trim and mantel. It should be a bit wider than the stove top. If that would work, then the stove can be in the fireplace where it will look better and less of a project for you.

Note there's a little terminology confusion here. The flat board above the fireplace opening is considered trim until it reaches the mantel. The little hood that can be put over the stove is what is referred to as a heat shield.

PS: If you can take a moment to PM the picture I will post it for you. Right now you have it as your avatar. For more info on posting pictures on the forum, here's a link:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/6/

 

[billb3]

From what little I can see in the avatar, the skirt under the mantel and the columns on each side look awful close.

 

[newbie21]

The skirt under the mantle is 41" above the hearth. The columns on the side are 55.5" apart. Thanks for the tip on pictures, BeGreen. The second dealer that we talked to (the one that came out to our house today) said something about putting a heat shield there--although I have to admit I didn't know it was called a lintel. I thought that was something you make soup out of ;-P

I don't know if anyone here has had experience with putting a freestanding in an existing fireplace, but is it a problem if it sticks out a bit past the fireplace opening? Or could we just attach a bigger shield to the lintel? (Sorry I ask so many questions)

 

[begreen]

Much better. Again, this doesn't seem like that big a deal. Just be sure that they don't install a shield that's a monstrosity. That's a very shallow mantel. It shouldn't require a huge shield.

 

[Mike Wilson]

I agree. Upon seeing the mantel, and how little it projects, it shouldn't be much of a problem. In my head, before I saw your photos, I thought you had a regular, full sized mantel protruding, but you don't. Either a small heat shield, or a good degree of caution will suffice.

-- Mike

 

[billb3]

I don't understand why/how the thin-ness or thickness of the mantel affects proximity.
(for a free-standing stove)

For an insert that doesn't stick out beyond the brick surface I can see a technical difference.
I'd still be concerned about baked wood.

 

[newbie21]

We're trying to have the freestanding put completely in the fireplace. There are several models that will fit. We're choosing between the Jotul Castine and the Napoleon 1600c because of their dimensions. Both of them would fit in the fireplace without jutting out past the opening. We would still want to go with a mantel heat shield in any case. We could also go with the Jotul Kennebec insert, which would end up being more expensive. (Can you tell from the models that aesthetics are an issue? %-P )

Would something like this work as a mantel shield?:

(broken link removed to http://www.northlineexpress.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=5MN-CABL)

 

[begreen]

I would have a local sheet metal shop make a nice shield out of 22 ga sheet metal. They can make it to size and radius the corners. Drill the mounting holes, then clean thoroughly with lacquer thinner, sand lightly with fine grit and paint with high temp paint. When totally dry, install.

 

[benking]

If the stove you choose fits completely in the fireplace and does not stick out past the brick on the top I don't see why you would need a heat shield for your mantel. I put a Jotul F3CB in my fireplace and choose a smaller stove becuase of that same issue. In my situation I had the space to put a larger stove in the fireplace but becuase it would stick out onto the hearth it would require a heatshield. Everyone's situation is different but I wanted to avoid the heatshield option as most of the ones I've seen take away from the pleasing lines of othewise untouched mantel.

If the stove is completely in the fireplace its alread more protected than an open fire in the fireplace. No sheilds required. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

-Ben

 

[newbie21]

I don't know, it seems to me that since most of the heat from an open fire goes directly up the chimney it would put less heat on your mantel than a wood stove, which is also higher up (how high depending upon your model). Does your mantel get very hot?

 

[newbie21]

BeGreen, Thanks for the tip. Sounds like that would work out fine. Would you attach it so that it points up or down? I know that the Jotul Kennebec manual shows a mantel shield pointing up. I think that a canopy style would look better, though. Of course, if it doesn't do the job then what's the point?

 

[benking]

My mantel gets warm but never too hot to touch.