Froling install schematic

[dogwood]

I have studied hundreds of all your posts and have attempted to integrate what I have figured out so far into the attached plumbing and electrical schematic. Its hand drawn and scanned so I hope it looks okay on screen. Please don't laugh. This has taken a mountain of time for me complete by copping ideas from Nofossil, BioHeat and many, many others who I cannot thank enough. I've yet to finish sizing all the circs. I don't know if this will even work or not. The green and light blue lines are for 24 volt and 110 volt circuits. The rest is all plumbing. I think from recent posts I've read I can eliminate the two zone valves and put the circs below them in their place. Please let me know what you think so I can make the proper adjustments, or start all over again, before laying out a pile of hard earned money (on loan) for the components of this system. The only thing I have so far is the 1000 gallon storage tank, and the pre-existing propane fired forced air furnace with cooling coil, and 40 gallon propane DHW heater. Thanks and anxiously awaiting your input.

P.S. After hitting the thumbnail to enlarge it, drag the right edge of the picture to make it more the size of the screen, and then click the 150% zoom button on the dropdown in the bottom right corner to make this diagram readable.

Mike

 

[Nofossil]

Looks interesting, but my old tired eyes can't make out enough detail.....

 

[dogwood]

If you click on the diagram to open it up and then go to 150% zoom in the bottom right corner, and drag the edges over to make it the size of the screen, it does look a lot bigger and clearer. I didn't know how to post it to make it come out this large. I really wish you would give it another try Nofossil because I was really hoping to get your opinion, before I sink a small fortune we don't have, into this mess. I'd tried to figure out an AutoCAD-like type program downloaded from the TACO site, but failed. If you really can't dope it out I'll try to get something cleaner posted or I'll mail you a copy. This diagram really does look decent on paper. Maybe I shouldn't have tried so hard to label everything. My handwriting is loathsome in spite of my best efforts at printing. And honestly there is no one I can find in the Roanoke, VA area who even knows what a wood gassifier is much less how to do an install. I really feel I'm on my own here having to rely on the good graces and expertise of people I don't even know. I'd truly be lost on this project without this site. But nothing good comes easy. Thanks.

Mike

 

[Gooserider]

For reasons I don't fully understand, blue tends to be problematic for a lot of scanners and photocopiers - that may be part of your problem... This can be a pain if you are trying to reproduce something in blue, although a lot of graphic artist types use that fact to let them draw guide lines and such that don't need to be erased...

Another thing that probably doesn't help is that you drew out all your pipes as two parallel lines - this makes the drawing a bit busier than it needs to be, as a schematic a single (heavy) line for pipes will do...

If you want a nice general purpose CAD program, I've had good luck w/ QCAD. I use it on Linux, but I understand they also make Microsoft compatible versions for Bill's victims... There is a free downloadable version, but IMHO it is worth the extra money to get the commercial version and the book that goes with it (They have packages for under $100). It puts out what are claimed to be Autocad compatible .DWG files as it's native format.

It is still a bit of a pain to get from that to something that will upload here, but it's doable, just takes some fiddling - The problem is more a limit on what Craig allows for uploads than any issues w/ QCAD. In addition to its native format, QCAD can export in .PDF, .SVG, and .PNG formats, What I've found works best is to export as a .PNG file, open that in my photo editing software, (Digikam) and save it as a .JPG - which can be uploaded... Just as a sample, here is one of my first drawings, where I did a layout of our swimming pool - first step to figuring out how much it held...

As to your plan itself, it looks pretty good to me, but I'm not a pro. The only thing I saw that was a bit of a concern in my mind is that you have a circ pump on the dump zone. IMHO dump zones should be gravity powered in order to eliminate every possible point of failure... Yes, you are putting a battery backup on the circ, but still...

I also agree with your earlier comment about possibly not really needing the zone valves if you are using circs on the zones - or maybe move to one zone valve on the feed to the zones that would open if either zone called for heat, but otherwise would prevent flow other than through the storage tank.

Gooserider

 

[dogwood]

Thanks for your input Gooserider. I might have to get an AutoCad program and figure that out too, if some of the pros on this site can't read my diagram by enlarging it to give it a heads up, or down. Please someone do that and save me the expense and torture of learning one more program. Learning hydronics is enough of a chore for the uninitiated.

I got the idea for using a deep cycle marine battery with a trickle charger servicing a Laing 24 volt circulator on the dump zone from some posts a while back. Maybe its not such a good idea as you say. I'll look into the gravity feed alternative as that is what BioHeat shows in their diagrams anyway. We do have fairly frequent electric outages out here in the country so I was trying to go the extra mile. Maybe in the wrong direction.

I wonder if some flow intended for the storage tank might sneak by and get past the circulators for the DHW HX and the Water to Air HX if there wasn't a zone valve. I thought from the books I've read that the flow would go straight past an unpumped teed off line (and that's where the closely spaced tees concept comes from). I then thought I would use different size circulators off the teed off line that would pump only the gpms needed for their individual purposes. But I'm an amateur and really don't know, so figured adding in zone valves would stop the possibility of unwanted flow from happening. Maybe one of the pro's could let us know. Those gold looking larger size TACO zone valves run over a hundred dollars on PexSupply.com and would be a welcome savings if unneeded. Again, thanks for your input. I really do appreciate it. Enjoy your Sunday.

Mike

 

[jebatty]

I'm imagining the fun you will have with the plumbing and electrical. As to the diagram, it looks like the loads are bypassing the Termovar, and that the Termovar is not plumbed to do anything. The middle fitting on the Termovar should go to the boiler.

 

[dogwood]

Jebatty, the Termovar unit is to be hooked up exactly as in the BioHeat schematic. I should have drawn it better. Their picture of it on their schematic shows three small circles and a square box to the left of the circle which I obviously didn't translate onto paper sucessfully. Did you notice anything else of concern? I really am looking forward to the actual physical piping work, because that is something I better understand, and have done some off. Its getting the components in place, sized correctly, in a working arrangement that scares me some. Thanks for your input. Do you think this piping scheme would work to get water flowing through the system as it is intended to do?

Mike

 

[heaterman]

Are you operating the baseboard zone and the F/A coil with the same thermostat or are they independent zones?

 

[dogwood]

Heaterman, the baseboard zone is the overheat protection dump-zone only opened by the automag during electrical outages. I'm not sure what F/A stands for so I am guessing Furnace/ Air conditioning. That will be operating on a separate thermostat, the house thermostat. If F/A means something entirely different let me know so I can provide you with a sensible answer. Thanks.

The only zones are one for the DHW flatplate HX, one for the Water to Air HX in the furnace plenum, and the electrical outage dump zone which I guess you could label a zone as well. Do you think the whole setup is functional. Also, I wasn't sure if I'd need the two zone valves near the heat exchangers. What do you think? I'd appreciate and value your advice. You have been quite helpful and informative on other questions I've posted.

Mike