Frustrated EKO 80 owner

[guybiv]

OK,

This is the first time I have posted to this site - but have spent alot of time looking over site to gather information. I put in an EKO 80 on December 1, 2008. I was told that I would get (12) hour burns if I did not put any storage in. I was told that I would get 24 hours burns if I put in storage. I put in 500 gallons storage to try it. The best burn time I get is about 8 hours. I have been playing with primary / secondary / fan speed / fan opening / draft etc for the last 4 months and still cannot get 12 hours burns. I am heating approx 5900 sq ft in house and 2,000 sq ft in my barn (12 ft celings).

So here is the question - EK0 80 - does anyone know what to expect with each adjustment - like more fan speed / less fan speed / more fan opening / less fan opening / more draft / less draft / primary air / secondary air - what each change is expected to create as results. All of this seems a bit fuzzy to me.

I have spoke to Zennon - a few good suggestions - however language barrier seems to be issue.

I am trying to decide whether to invest more money in this thing - like going to 2000 gallons storage - or return it to the dealer. I would be happy to simply load it twice a day - but right now that does not seem to be realistic. My neighbor is heating about same size house - with Central Boiler 6048 - and he loves it. He can throw any kind of wood in - wet / dry / green etc - and he goes back in house. I have to monkey around with mine all the time. I really did not want to be married to my boiler.

any suggestions?

 

[sdrobertson]

OK,

This is the first time I have posted to this site - but have spent alot of time looking over site to gather information. I put in an EKO 80 on December 1, 2008. I was told that I would get (12) hour burns if I did not put any storage in. I was told that I would get 24 hours burns if I put in storage. I put in 500 gallons storage to try it. The best burn time I get is about 8 hours. I have been playing with primary / secondary / fan speed / fan opening / draft etc for the last 4 months and still cannot get 12 hours burns. I am heating approx 5900 sq ft in house and 2,000 sq ft in my barn (12 ft celings).

So here is the question - EK0 80 - does anyone know what to expect with each adjustment - like more fan speed / less fan speed / more fan opening / less fan opening / more draft / less draft / primary air / secondary air - what each change is expected to create as results. All of this seems a bit fuzzy to me.

I have spoke to Zennon - a few good suggestions - however language barrier seems to be issue.

I am trying to decide whether to invest more money in this thing - like going to 2000 gallons storage - or return it to the dealer. I would be happy to simply load it twice a day - but right now that does not seem to be realistic. My neighbor is heating about same size house - with Central Boiler 6048 - and he loves it. He can throw any kind of wood in - wet / dry / green etc - and he goes back in house. I have to monkey around with mine all the time. I really did not want to be married to my boiler.

any suggestions?

Wow, 7900 sq ft is allot of space to be heating(12' ceiling's). I had a 6048 and I loved the stove also, until I found EKO's. I have 2000 gallons storage and I can get 24 hours using the storage and I'm heating a total of 2400 sq ft (including basement). I'm not sure who told you that you would get 12 hour burn time with that much sq feet in Northern Michigan...I would think that with the 6048 pack to the gills twice a day would be pushing it during the really cold spells. First, you should do a real look at the btu requirements of both spaces as this will tell you how many BTU's you'll need. Last years gas bills will get you close. A description of your set up, i.e. is it in the building, how far away, pipe sizing, etc. On the air adjustments, the first sticky titled "fine tuning Eko" is a great place to start. My main problem was my wood condition which lead to me starting that thread. Now that I finally got it through my thick head that dry wood is allot drier than I thought. PM me if you want a tx number to talk "face to face" as sometimes that's easier.

 

[Duetech]

From all accounts the manual says that your storage is too small. 500 gallons is about minimum for the EKO40. I don't have my storage in yet but I am shooting for 1-1.2k gallons. My 40 heats a 1700 sq. ft home and I load 2x daily (coal bed to coal bed for full loads though I will admit pampering it a bit but I have not gone over 5 cord per winter) with dry red oak down to zero and up to 3x below zero. I don't know what type of wood you are using but I would suggest beech, oak or hard maple and nothing less for extended burns and max btu output. Adequate storage will not extend the length of burn time but should extend the length of time between burns. Check out this link for wood btu output. Even people with owb's will benefit with dry (20% moisture) wood. (broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/howood.htm)

 

[leaddog]

I agree that you need to do a heat load calc. to see just how many btu's you need. Every house is different because of insulation, location, window area, tightness, wind speed etc. The out building could be taking more than you think depending on insulation etc. Some pole buildings with radiate heat take a huge amount of btu's if not put in right. (like if used foil/bubble/foil or the outside wall not insulated at foundation).
With that in mind you have to understand how gasification boilers work. They burn best if burned hard. They will put out their btu's in a curve. Less at the start, most in the middle and less at the end. Also burn times mean different things to different people. You will not get 12hr burns at full burn. 8hrs at full burn is good and at the end you will have just coals and low heat output. You can get 12hr burns with good coals if you use good hard DRY wood and not have to restart a fire(just stir coals, and put in more wood) but the last 4hrs will be low heat or if your heat load is low enough and you idle.
This is where storage comes in. Once you get the storage up to temp you can do your burns when it is more timely for you. You can time the burns and refill but you will still need to burn the same amount of time and wood but be able to do it when you want. I have an eko80 and in the cold times I have to do at least 2 full burns a day. Sometimes I do it with one long burn filling 2 or 3 timesdurring the day. Sometimes I burn a smaller burn in the day and then fill at 6pm and then top it off at 9 for the night. I have 2200gals of storage and can go 24hrs if I have to but then I have to burn really hard to get the storage back up and heat at the same time. Storage doesn't make btu's just stores them and lets you use them when you want. I can easily go 14hrs in the coldest days and not have to get up and fill the first thing. I can eat breakfast and have coffee and then go out, but then I have to burn hard to get things back up.
Now if you need more btu's than you can put out storage won't help but if your boiler is sized slightly small storage will help you get thru those cold hrs and you can catch up durring the warmer hrs of the day. But you still have to burn the same amount of wood.
As far as comparing your situation to your neighbors CB or other OWB You will burn less wood getting the same btu's for sure. And if he burns wet wood you will burn at least 60% less to get the same btu's. But you can't compare how much wood I burn, you burn, or your neighbor burns as it is the useable btu's you need and get out of your wood that is important, and every situation is different.
If you are able to keep you house warm the way things are now adding more storage (at least 1500galmore if possible) will really help you time your burns better and give you more flexabity and during the shoulder seasons really help you. Hope this helps
leaddog

 

[atlarge54]

Perfect world assumptions 7000btu/lb of firewood, 100% combustion efficiency, 275,000btu/hr heat load, 12hr burn equals 471lbs of good dry wood in the firebox. How much wood can you stuff in an 80? Do you have much woodburning experience? Before I'd ever try to heat 8000 sq ft I'd have to own a dump truck, tractor/loader, good splitter, small forrest, etc. etc. etc. Is the shop floor insulated? How about exposed foundation on the home? Any chance you've got a wet or poorly insulated underground lineset? Lots of glass can be an absolute killer when heating a home with long dark windy winter nights. Can you turn down some of the zones in the house or is the living space fully utilized 24/7?

 

[guybiv]

A few more details,

I am heating in my house the following:
1900 sq ft in basement (in floor heat)
1900 sq ft main floor (hydronic coil in an air handler)
1200 sq ft second floor (hyrdronic coil in an air handler)
800 sq ft in garage (in floor heat)
80 gallon boilermate (DHW)

House was built in 2007 - spray foam in all walls, spray foam in vaulted ceilings & 12 fiberglass, and 30 inches of blown in the ceilings. It should be well insulated. Above average amount of well insulated low-e peachtree casement windows. Some large windows facing west. House in the middle of corn field - alot of wind.

I am heating in pole barn:
1920 sq ft - hydronic coil in an air handler
40 gal DHW tank - plate heat exchanger

Polebarn has 12" blown in the ceilings, and R19 in the walls, and drywalled. Concrete Floor.

EKO 80 is near my polebarn (separate insulated building) - didn't want smoke in my workshop. I have (2) runs at 165' of 1 1/2" Logstor running to house from barn.

 

[Duetech]

What is your operating temperature? and do you know the water temps coming in to your structures?

 

[guybiv]

I have the system operating at 185 degrees. I lose about 2 degrees going from the barn to house and back to barn. The logstor only loses about 2 degrees round trip - when there is no call for heat.

 

[taxidermist]

So is it not heating your house? or are you stuck on the burn times that they told you? With a eko 80 and only 500gal of storage your pissing in the wind. Also the logstor run from your barn to house is how long? I am sure it is dual 1" pex right? If so there is no way you can use all the btu your 80 puts out and transfer it to your house thru 1" pex. Get intouch with Leaddog,northwoodsman or Heaterman as they are all from northern MI and talk with people that own and use these units not the salesman. You will love the unit when you get the thing dialed in. I have a eko 60 and 1000 gal storage and in the dead of winter I have to burn for about 10 to 12hrs straight or 2- 6hour fires and then run off storage the rest of the time.


Rob

 

[atlarge54]

What is the insulation on the basement walls and slab? My first guess is that basement slab could be a major culprit. On This Old House they had a really neat zone system that could be retrofitted to air duct systems. It uses inflatable bladders at the registers that are controlled by a central processor which receives info. from wireless stats in each room or a main control stat. Not cheap at $5000 but it looked pretty user friendly. Unless you've got a house full of kids and need all available space heated at all times you could really extend your burn times. Heating and cooling unused space has always been a pet peeve of mine. What about a simple setback stat for the shop? It sound like you've really done a lot of things right. How many cubic feet is the firebox on your 80? Will it burn big hunks or does everything need to be small splits?

 

[guybiv]

Basement is built into side of hill - therefore ground level on front of house - walkout on back of house. The logstor running from barn to house is 1.5" (2) runs at 165' each. The basement slab is insulated from the foundation with a thermal break in the slab. The EKO80 is heating my house and barn. I am frustrated that I cannot go to bed and still have heat in the morning. I would not mind loading stove at 8 am and 4 pm. Storage would be nice for the transition seasons and during summer for heating DHW.

 

[taxidermist]

Glad to hear about the 1 1 pex that helps. Sounds like you need more storage. The OWB are nice as they are a set it and forget it set up but use way more wood that a eko. If you put in more storage you will burn hard for a day or so then with your temps up on your tanks you will beable to fire when you want. Hang in there we will get it figured out. Where in MI are you located??

Rob

 

[Nofossil]

The gasifier / storage combination is harder to design, but should be less effort to manage day-to-day. There are a couple of differences in how you want to think about heating.

First, you need to have enough storage to provide meaningful amounts of stored heat. Typically, you would want at a minimum enough storage to carry the house for close to a day at average winter temperatures - 18 to 20 hours would be good, but more is better. In order to determine how much storage that is, you need to know four things:

1) What is your average daily winter heat load? Typically, this is about half your worst-case peak load.

2) What is the maximum storage temperature that you can easily achieve? With pressurized storage, this is usually between 170 and 180 degrees.

3) What is the lowest storage temperature at which you can get usable heat? With baseboards, this is around 140 degrees. Radiant may work as low as 90 degrees depending on the installation.

4) How many hours of coverage do you want? As mentioned above, 20 is reasonable.

With this information you can calculate your storage:

Required storage in gallons = (desired coverage hours / 24) x daily heat load / ((max storage temp - min storage temp) x 8.3)

Once you have enough storage, the critical issue is not "how long can I get it to burn?" but rather "how many hours do I need to burn at full output today?"

Ideally, you can schedule your burn for your convenience. In my case, I need to burn 7 hours on an average winter day. I usually start my burn at about 6:00 in the evening, but I have lots of latitude depending on what I'm doing. In my little boiler, 7 hours is two loads. The second load goes in near bedtime.

On the coldest days I need to burn about 12 hours per day, and I'll start my fire in mid-afternoon. A 12 hour burn requires 3 or 4 loads, and I'm careful to load it to the gills at bedtime so that it will keep going until 3:00 in the morning.

In all cases, the fire goes out sometime in the night, and the house stays toasty using heat from storage until the next day. In warmer weather or on sunny days, I can skip a day or even two.

 

[DaveBP]

guybiv
The basement slab is insulated from the foundation with a thermal break in the slab.

Do you mean a thermal break at the edges only? What kind of and how much insulation is under your heated floors? What is a thermal break?

I don't mean to be snotty but a lot of people have posted to this forum that have followed Expert Advice and installed (or even had pros install) floors that turned out to be not very well insulated. Foil faced bubble wrap for instance, ends up being not very effective at slowing down a huge heat loss into the floor. But installers and salesmen still tout it as a miracle product. It's better than nothing. That's the best I can say about it.

 

[guybiv]

There is 2" dow blue foam under my basement and garage floor slab (i did not like the foil bubble wrap). A thermal break separates the basement slab from the foundation (to prevent heat transfer to the foundation). In my case it a wood 2" x 4" cut with a point at the top that is poured in the cement slab.

 

[Fred61]

There is 2" dow blue foam under my basement and garage floor slab (i did not like the foil bubble wrap). A thermal break separates the basement slab from the foundation (to prevent heat transfer to the foundation). In my case it a wood 2" x 4" cut with a point at the top that is poured in the cement slab.

Not only is insulation important but so is preparation of the site to keep water away. Any water or even wicking soil will rob the heat from the slab. The saying is "any heat lost to the earth is lost forever". Several inches of crushed stone for the base and then 6 Mil polyethylene before the insulation goes down. If the site looks iffy, I put perimeter drain both inside and outside the footing. Back in the early seventies there were people trying to store heat in the ground. HAH..HAH!

 

[flyingcow]

guybiv,
sounds like you got the buildings' built good. Do as these guys have suggested. But there is no doubt you have too small of a storage. Way too small. Wild guess, maybe your in the running for 2000 gals of storage. As pointed out you need dry wood. Preferably, at least 1 yrs of drying closer to 2 if possible, and not big sticks either. And once you get the particulars straightened out, the guy with the 6048 will be envious. I got a buddy that has a 6048, and he's impressed how my gassifier w/storage works. After a couple of drinks, he'll even admit he wished he had one. But not when he's sober. Good luck. Part of the process is the learning curve and adjusting firing times to your schedule. It takes time, I'm still in the learning curve phase.

 

[Eric Johnson]

In my experience, it takes a good year to get to where you're reliably proficient with these things. And really, that goes for any wood-fired boiler. My second season went so much more smoothly than my first, and I can't really tell you why, except it's always that way with me, whether it's a boiler or a furnace or a wood stove.

 

[cvanhat]

another big factor is the type and quality of the wood that you are burning as well as the moisture content. what are you burning in that beast?? are you getting gasification?? i have no problem getting 12 hours on my 60 with 500 gallons.

 

[taxidermist]

another big factor is the type and quality of the wood that you are burning as well as the moisture content. what are you burning in that beast?? are you getting gasification?? i have no problem getting 12 hours on my 60 with 500 gallons.

You must idle a lot because my 60 burns a full load in about 4to6 hrs never idles with 1000 gal storage.

 

[cvanhat]

well we never let our fire go out. sounds like its the same amount of fuel if you burn only two loads in 8-12 hours and i am burning two full loads in 24 hours.

 

[guybiv]

I am burning dry wood (oak and maple slab for now). I have ordered 23 pulp cord of oak that was dropped last august. I am hoping that it is dry enough to gasify in October. I am builidng lean to off back of pole barn this year (instead of tarping wood), and am going to add 2000 gallons of water storage this year. I appreciate all the feedback that I have received from folks regvarding this thread.

I will keep everyone updated as I make progress toward my additional storage.

 

[taxidermist]

I am burning dry wood (oak and maple slab for now). I have ordered 23 pulp cord of oak that was dropped last august. I am hoping that it is dry enough to gasify in October. I am builidng lean to off back of pole barn this year (instead of tarping wood), and am going to add 2000 gallons of water storage this year. I appreciate all the feedback that I have received from folks regvarding this thread.

I will keep everyone updated as I make progress toward my additional storage.

Better get that oak cut split and drying or you will be dealing with high MC wood and beating your head on the wall.