Garn or EKO, TARM etc...

[NP ALASKA]

Well, I am trying to make a decision on what to do.

At present I have a OWB, tired of wood conspumption. I am heating 10,000 sq ft. 4 Different buildings.

My questions are

1. Can I put the garn in one of my out buildings that is 25 feet from my OWB and connect the two together? I have 1.25 bungs available on the OWB.

2. Does the water move continous like my OWB when lines are under ground(preventing freezeing)?

3. Or if not can I tie the existing lines in the ground to the garn? 1 inch Pex

4. Will the garn take less wood than the OWB?

I do not have the ideal situation...I run a dog boarding faiclity and have 42 swinging dog doors resulting in high heat loss. I am able to keep temps between 65-70 with the OWB.
The garn rep here says my wood consumption will be less...he just cant not calcualte a burn time since my heat loss is question able. I am ok with that. If Ican get away with 2 fireings a day or 3 even, it is worth it to me. I visit my OWB 4-5 time at 20 below. Yep yo guessed it 50 cord a year.

OOOOORRRRRR

Should I look at the EKO or tarm, we have a econoburn dealer here???

 

[Duetech]

EKO or Econoburn will need storage to get the longest runs on them but the wood needs to be seasoned to 20% moisture for best results. My boiler EKO40 will do 8 +/- hours on one load (usually 10 with highr btu woods) but that is with idle time straight constant burn time is hard for me to pinpoint but there are times that I have had lower/mid btu woods burn up in 4 and higher in 6hrs. Standard fuel savings with a gasser compared to an OWB is a rough 40%. My gasser uses about 50% less than my wood furnace did and does a much better job.

Hooking the boilers in parallel can be done as some hook oil/gas boilers to wood.

For the volume I am understanding I would think 1 1/4" pex but at this time and your weather???... I take it the 1" is already in the ground? Sometimes they reccomend two 1" lines (for a total of four 2 suply and 2 return) for high heat demand systems.

 

[Como]

I would say one Garn 1500 with space for another if that is not enough.

What is your back up?

 

[Gooserider]

Well, I am trying to make a decision on what to do.

At present I have a OWB, tired of wood conspumption. I am heating 10,000 sq ft. 4 Different buildings.

My questions are

1. Can I put the garn in one of my out buildings that is 25 feet from my OWB and connect the two together? I have 1.25 bungs available on the OWB.

I assume that you've already looked at the size requirements and decided that you have the space for it... If so, the only real challenge is getting the unit into position - It's a big, heavy object, so that can be a big issue in some cases, not in others. Otherwise I don't see any reason it would be a problem based on the little information you've given...

2. Does the water move continous like my OWB when lines are under ground(preventing freezeing)?

That all depends on how you setup the controls and plumbing, certainly no reason why you can't... (though it is best to put the lines below the frost line, if possible and insulate them really well, obviously...)

3. Or if not can I tie the existing lines in the ground to the garn? 1 inch Pex

Again, plumbing is up to you, and will probably depend a lot on what your current setup is like, and how much work it takes to do different options... Again, with little to go on, my first thought would be to get rid of the OWB, (no sense in trying to keep it warm) and replace it with a set of manifolds that connect the existing pipes to the Garn, but really it's hard to be certain with the little you have told us.

4. Will the garn take less wood than the OWB?

Almost certainly - assuming your overall heat loads and high losses stay about the same, I would say about 30% less - usually the number is suggested as 40%, but that is assuming an OWB that is spending a lot of time idling, it sounds like yours would be spending more time than average running hard, which would make it as efficient as an OWB ever gets (not very...) so your savings would probably still be considerable, but less than average.

I do not have the ideal situation...I run a dog boarding faiclity and have 42 swinging dog doors resulting in high heat loss. I am able to keep temps between 65-70 with the OWB.
The garn rep here says my wood consumption will be less...he just cant not calcualte a burn time since my heat loss is question able. I am ok with that. If Ican get away with 2 fireings a day or 3 even, it is worth it to me. I visit my OWB 4-5 time at 20 below. Yep yo guessed it 50 cord a year.

OOOOORRRRRR

Should I look at the EKO or tarm, we have a econoburn dealer here???

You could look at any of the conventional gassers, but as said, you'd want to be running some big storage to go with them, and might also have issues in that the other units are designed to run pressurized, and if you are currently running an unpressurized OWB setup, might have some extra work to go between the two. I don't see any real advantage to doing a conventional gasser, unless possibly you already had the kind of storage needed, or could get it really cheap... OTOH, it sounds like the kind of situation a Garn is ideal for, big loads, need for big storage, and probably long burns of large wood loads...

I think I would say a Garn would be my first choice in your shoes, but it would certainly make sense to run the numbers on the alternatives just to be sure....

Gooserider

 

[sweetheat]

if your tired of being a slave to all that wood, a conventional gasser with storage is like going on vacation. My first year using a gasser with unpressurized storage 2.75 cords of dry hardwood, 28X42 radiant heated slab with 2nd floor new construction, held 64 degrees 24/7 October 31st to April 15th. This winter I hope to do better! Sweetheat

 

[NP ALASKA]

Sorry for the lack of info, Just trying to see what is realistic. I have ran the OWB's for 5 years.

I already have a 12WX60L over hang off the back of one of my buildings. Pleanty of room to slide a Garn 2000 in place. My thought is to clsoe in the walls an use the remaining footage for wood storage.

My PEX is already in the ground, that the reasoning for tieing the two together....sounds like that would be less efficient. I will un cover my existing lines about 20 or 30 feat and move them. Should not be a probelm they are currently with 12 feet of where the garn would sit. I put them 5-6feet underground because of the freeze we get in interior Alaska(North Pole). I currently have my lines moving all the time. Can I get away with not doing this? How long can they sit with out freezing? I used the Thermo-pex from Central boiler.

Most of the system is 1" pex or copper, I hoped to use this and limit some of the cost associated with the upgrade.

I can provide photos if youd like.

Also, I have two oil fired boiler inline to back up OWB. I will leave them inline for the Garn. It sounds like this will be my best option.

I just want to go into this with my eyes open this time... Thanks

 

[Gooserider]

Sorry for the lack of info, Just trying to see what is realistic. I have ran the OWB's for 5 years.

Not a problem as such, just wanted to make it clear where I was sort of guessing at things, and what the major issues might be that could change my thinking...

I already have a 12WX60L over hang off the back of one of my buildings. Pleanty of room to slide a Garn 2000 in place. My thought is to clsoe in the walls an use the remaining footage for wood storage.

That sounds like an ideal approach - I've heard others doing something like that, and it has worked well. Only two "gotchas" are to be sure you put in a good solid footing, and that you have enough room overhead to access the manhole on the top of the unit (some folks solve this by putting a trap door in the floor above - might or might not work for you depending on what kind of space the overhead is...)

My PEX is already in the ground, that the reasoning for tieing the two together....sounds like that would be less efficient. I will un cover my existing lines about 20 or 30 feat and move them. Should not be a probelm they are currently with 12 feet of where the garn would sit. I put them 5-6feet underground because of the freeze we get in interior Alaska(North Pole). I currently have my lines moving all the time. Can I get away with not doing this? How long can they sit with out freezing? I used the Thermo-pex from Central boiler.

The hookup can be done either way I'm sure, its basically just a question of what is most convenient / easiest / least expensive, etc... If moving the existing lines is easy, that is probably the best approach, but you are the best judge of that...

In terms of how long the lines can sit w/o freezing, I'm really not sure. If one had all the relevant figures, it could probably be calculated - one would have to figure out the temperature differential between the water and the ground, and how many BTU/hr/degree the stuff would lose... It might be something Thermopex tech support could answer. My first wild guess would be that you could probably go a few hours, but probably not more than a day or two... You could also probably do an experimental determination - turn the pumps off for a brief period, and see how much the temp drops when you turn them back on, repeat at slowly increasing intervals until you find out how long you can go w/o getting nervous... As another thought, I could be wrong, but I'd expect that your pumps, valves and any other exposed plumbing might be more of a limiting factor than your underground piping...

Most of the system is 1" pex or copper, I hoped to use this and limit some of the cost associated with the upgrade.

That should be possible - I seem to recall that Garn likes you to come off the tank a certain distance in black iron before going to copper, but that shouldn't be a big deal. Once you get away from the boiler itself, the rest of the system can be whatever you want - it doesn't care what makes the heat as long as it gets the BTU's that it needs...

We have had many users in the past that have had issues with their lines not being big enough to carry the needed water volume and BTU's (Some OWB dealers especially think PEX only comes in one size...) but I have been assuming that you have been getting acceptable heating from the current setup, and if so, you really shouldn't need to do anything in the way of mods other than whatever it takes to get hooked up to the Garn.

I can provide photos if youd like.

WE LUV'S PIKTURES :lol: :coolgrin: It is neat to see different people's setups in general, and it does make things easier... See the sticky at the top of every forum area if you need hints on getting them posted.

Also, I have two oil fired boiler inline to back up OWB. I will leave them inline for the Garn. It sounds like this will be my best option.
I just want to go into this with my eyes open this time... Thanks

That sounds reasonable - usually we tell people to try to avoid heating the Garn or storage tank w/ the backup systems, sounds like you might have more need to do so than most of our users, but I would still say to use your boiler return water or other low temp supply, as all you need is to keep the unit from freezing...

It does sound like you are asking the right questions, much better than some of the folks we get coming in w/ half done projects that are going to take a lot to fix up so they are "right"...

Gooserider

 

[NP ALASKA]

Well, I reieved a quote for the Garn 2000...23K delivered to Alaska.

I am now researching some other options, with that kind of price tag I can not even think of closing in the building over hang like I wanted.

I can get a Tarm locally for 7300 and the Econoburn for about 9000. These will fit in a space I already have and with some creative stacking of tanks like I have seen here I can get over 1000 gallons of storage.

I did not realize that the Garn woould run me 35-40K with installation and enclosingthe building.

For that kind of money I can afford two Tarms and have money left over...

Your thoughts????

Regards, Morgan

 

[Jim K in PA]

Well, I reieved a quote for the Garn 2000...23K delivered to Alaska.

Regards, Morgan

Wow! :bug: $8k for delivery? That would be a deal breaker for me too.

Before you decide on the appliance, get a quote for the installation of the storage tanks and piping. The GARN installation is relatively simple compared to seperate storage with additional pumps, heat exchangers, control equipment, etc.

 

[flyingcow]

My tarm plus buying my storage=about what a garn1500 would have cost. But have dealers close.

 

[gorbull]

Offhand what is the price of a Garn 1500?

 

[ihookem]

NP, I know it's a little off topic but is it insulated very well? If you're looking at that kind of money insulation is cheap and could tip the scales a bit and help reduce wood consumption, or make it logical to buy a smaller woodboiler.. Just a thought from an insulating guy.

 

[Como]

Offhand what is the price of a Garn 1500?

In this case, not a lot less, couple of thousand?, sounds like shipping is the killer.

 

[jebatty]

I puzzled over this question also, mainly between the Garn, on the one hand, and the gassers, on the other hand. I went the gasser route (Tarm Solo 40) for two primary reasons: 1) I could move and install the boiler and the added 1000 gal pressurized storage tank with my own equipment and 2) if I ever wanted to move the system, again I could do that with my own equipment. This is my third season with the Tarm and low and behold, last fall I decided to build a new shop on land about 1-1/2 miles from my existing shop and I will have to move the system summer 2010. Very happy with the decision not to get the Garn for the reason contemplated.

A new factor, about which I am only picking up tidbits of info, is heat loss from the Garn between firings (air being drawn through the firebox and out the exhaust flue and cooling the surrounding water tank). Garn users can add their input here, but this is not an issue at all with my system, as the storage is independent of the boiler and the boiler water is only about 55 gal, so a similar concern with passive draft cooling the heated water is not material.

 

[Jim K in PA]

I puzzled over this question also, mainly between the Garn, on the one hand, and the gassers, on the other hand.

A GARN is a "gassifier", but not the common down-draft type like the TARM, et al.

I went the gasser route (Tarm Solo 40) for two primary reasons: 1) I could move and install the boiler and the added 1000 gal pressurized storage tank with my own equipment and 2) if I ever wanted to move the system, again I could do that with my own equipment. This is my third season with the Tarm and low and behold, last fall I decided to build a new shop on land about 1-1/2 miles from my existing shop and I will have to move the system summer 2010. Very happy with the decision not to get the Garn for the reason contemplated.

Very valid point. My GARN is never going to move from where it sits. This was a (minor) consideration for us when we were making our decision, as where we live now is where we intend to stay until the coroner shows up . . . :lol:

A new factor, about which I am only picking up tidbits of info, is heat loss from the Garn between firings (air being drawn through the firebox and out the exhaust flue and cooling the surrounding water tank). Garn users can add their input here, but this is not an issue at all with my system, as the storage is independent of the boiler and the boiler water is only about 55 gal, so a similar concern with passive draft cooling the heated water is not material.

There were some extensive discussions and some testing done about a year ago. I believe TCaldwell got some hard data. The standby loss from a GARN is not significant from passive draft. 90% of the flue piping is horizontal. However, a simple 6" motorized damper is something that I will be adding to reduce even the small amount of passive flow. I have not taken any measurtements of my own, but I suspect that during windy periods, more passive flow is occuring than during calm periods.

The only other "issue" with a GARN is an operator-related one. If you over-estimate the amount of time needed to burn a load of wood (set the fan timer for too long a run), the fan will continue to draw outside air through the GARN, even after the fire is out. This is easy to avoid if you pay attention to your unit, but I am not the only one that fires the unit, and my "helpers" have forgotten to check and adjust the fan timer on occasion. I will be adding a temperature based fan control soon.

 

[jebatty]

The only other “issue” with a GARN is an operator-related one. If you over-estimate the amount of time needed to burn a load of wood (set the fan timer for too long a run), the fan will continue to draw outside air through the GARN, even after the fire is out. This is easy to avoid if you pay attention to your unit, but I am not the only one that fires the unit, and my “helpers” have forgotten to check and adjust the fan timer on occasion. I will be adding a temperature based fan control soon.

Have you thought about a flue-based thermostat? I understand that the Garn flue temps are fairly low, and maybe one of (broken link removed to http://cgi.ebay.com/Keating-Thermostat-K-245-475-F_W0QQitemZ120224766129QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1bfdf458b1) or similar would work well. My Tarm has a thermostat sensor installed in the smoke box (area above the heat exchanger tubes and leading to the flue) which shuts down the boiler at about 200F. Good luck on your decision.

 

[TCaldwell]

maybe a temp meter for a type k in the flue and a built in relay to control a damper on the combustion air intake will mitigate thermal convection through the garn, try omega.com DP7000 series temp meter $55.00

 

[Jim K in PA]

This is getting off-topic - sorry NP!

Jim - thanks for the link. You are correct, the final pass in the GARN is generally 425-475 (I have hit 550 on occasion). I would need a sensor to read from about 175 to give me the adjustability I want. I will start the burn cycle with the fan switch to get the flue temps up above the cut out temp. Set the fan timer to 30 minutes so it will shut off before the burn is done. Then the fan is under the control of the temp sensor and the relay. Once the flue temp drops to my cut out point, the fan goes off.

Tom - The damper mounted in the intake would be like the auto dampers on oil/gas furnaces. Integral confirm on open to allow the burn cycle to start. I guess the temp control for the fan could also signal the damper to close. The temp is largely irrelevant for the control of the damper. Just have it closed when the fan is off. I think a simple sail-switch would be the easiest way to handle the close cycle.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

Yep yo guessed it 50 cord a year.

I can't answer your question, but YOU have GOT to be the Official Wood King here! Do trees shake when you drive by? :wow:

 

[leaddog]

Well, I reieved a quote for the Garn 2000...23K delivered to Alaska.


Regards, Morgan

For that delivered price I would think about takeing a truck and trailer to Minn and picking one up at the fractory. Maybe not today but when the weather gets better. If you need a new truck you could fly down and buy a new one and still be ahead.
leaddog

 

[TCaldwell]

or you could contact eupi or garnification, they could probably fabricate a ''garnalike'' for alot less $

 

[NP ALASKA]

Well, I reieved a quote for the Garn 2000...23K delivered to Alaska.

Regards, Morgan

Wow! :bug: $8k for delivery? That would be a deal breaker for me too.

Before you decide on the appliance, get a quote for the installation of the storage tanks and piping. The GARN installation is relatively simple compared to seperate storage with additional pumps, heat exchangers, control equipment, etc.

I have gone back to dealer to verify price, just to make sure I did not misunderstand. He is contacting Minnesota in the morning and he will get back to me. I will let you all know what happens.

Jim am I understadning you right? I can get a WHS 2000 down there for 15K? I may entertain driving down and visiting family in Idaho and bring one back. I already have truck and gooseneck flaat bed. I could haul 2. Maybe I can find someone to split travel costs...

 

[flyingcow]

Offhand what is the price of a Garn 1500?

I think it was about $12,500 to $13,000.

 

[deerhntr]

Well, I reieved a quote for the Garn 2000...23K delivered to Alaska.

Regards, Morgan

Wow! :bug: $8k for delivery? That would be a deal breaker for me too.

Before you decide on the appliance, get a quote for the installation of the storage tanks and piping. The GARN installation is relatively simple compared to seperate storage with additional pumps, heat exchangers, control equipment, etc.

I have gone back to dealer to verify price, just to make sure I did not misunderstand. He is contacting Minnesota in the morning and he will get back to me. I will let you all know what happens.

Jim am I understadning you right? I can get a WHS 2000 down there for 15K? I may entertain driving down and visiting family in Idaho and bring one back. I already have truck and gooseneck flaat bed. I could haul 2. Maybe I can find someone to split travel costs...

NP,

I purchased my whs2000 in april of '09 for $14.9K base plus about $1k of options. At that time, the 1500 was $12.4K. In my opinion, the additional $2.5K for 500 gallons more storage is money well spent. Especially in your climate and given your described heat load, I wouldn't consider a garn smaller than a 2000! At $5/gallon of additional storage you can't beat it.

If you have a truck and gooseneck trailer, and time, I would go for it. You are talking about 3100 miles, roughly $700 in gas each way plus expenses. You could most likely do it for $1600 or $1700. You could also try to get a shipping quote from
uship. They are a shipping auction site.

Good luck, and man do I love Alasaka, and those kenai/russian river sockeyes and rainbows!

 

[Jim K in PA]

Russ has the most current price data. I agree with his suggestion to go grab it yourself! That would be an awesome adventure! IF you can find someone else looking to buy one anywhere between MN and AK, you could easily get your direct costs back, and probably a little extra. Talk to the dealer, or Dectra directly, to find out if there are any pending orders that would make sense for you to team up with.

Keep us posted.