Gas Insert - Choosing a Brand and Installer

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B34N

New Member
Nov 18, 2018
4
Hopewell, NJ
I’m looking to have a gas insert installed in on our masonry (not zero-clearance) wood burning fireplace. Aesthetics are a primary concern. At 41 ¾” wide by 33” high, our existing fireplace opening seems considerably larger than the inserts I’ve seen. We want to avoid tiny viewing areas and big metal surrounds.

Objectives:
Fix cracked raised hearth
Reduce draftiness in winter
Have a supplemental (not primary) heat source that can also be used during power outages.

Current Thoughts:
Install a gas insert
Replace stone on hearth riser sides with wood/baseboard
Replace remaining hearth stone with new stone
Keep builder grade mantle

Questions:
Are there concerns with reducing the fireplace opening size?
Since we are replacing the stone surrounding the opening, were were thinking to match the size of the insert so that we can eliminate the need for an additional metal surround.

How should we choose a brand and installer? It seems that there are a few big/top brands each with their own dealer network or showrooms. I visited a few and it seemed that the subbed out at least the electrical and gas line installs. I would also need someone to do the stone replacement. Are showrooms generally the best options or should one consider a general contractor or even a chimney sweep.

CurrentBuilderGrade.jpg



Thank you!
 
I installed my own and built my own surround, not because I'm skilled, but because I'm ... uh.... well, that's kind of what I do. (I also built/G.C./finished my own house.)

Anyhow, my first thought is that you're going to spend some money on this anyways, so I wouldn't half-uh-"rear-end" it. I assume that you have a masonry chimney that you want to retain, putting a vent pipe up that stack. That makes sense.

However that hearth seems really high, way out of proportion to the rest of the fireplace. And with the windows on either side of the fireplace, you're really constrained horizontally, i.e. you can't expand the fireplace and make it wider, to make it more proportionate to the size of your hearth.

The only thing that you're really saving with your plan is the top of the hearth and the mantle. The mantle is at most a couple of $100 to replace, so I wouldn't plan the project around that. The top of the hearth might be saved, if it's removed. The mantle itself could be saved, so you could just replace the side trim pieces to increase the height of the mantle (i.e. it's standard building store stuff, easy project to do with a decent saw).

So, if it were my house, I'd consider rebuilding the hearth maybe half as high, try to save the hearth top (if you really like it that much), knock out the floor of the never-again-to-be-used fireplace, and open the fireplace up vertically, so that you can install a proper sized fireplace insert. Or perhaps, build it level with the floor, with either no hearth (patch the existing wood floor) if you like that style, or a stone-tile hearth of embedded at floor level, again, if you are interested in that kind of style.

I'll attach a picture of my own project. It's not the same style as yours, but your dimensions (" At 41 ¾” wide by 33” high") were very close to my unit's face.

MSI StackedStone Fireplace Surround2.jpg


My "direct vent" insert had a black steel facing above and to the sides, 10" from the top to just under my mantle, and 2.5" out to the sides. I just installed CBU (concrete board, flame resistant) over it, secured by high temp glue and mortar (versus screws, because that steel facing can't be pierced; safety issue), and then installed the stone over that. That enabled me to create a decent sized fireplace surround, 16" on the sides, and 10" up to the bottom of the mantle (minimum safe distance). A direct vent insert wouldn't work for you, of course, due to the retro fit (i.e. mine was a self-contained, sealed, zero clearance "appliance box"). My picture illustration is just to allay your concerns about a steel facing; most gas inserts don't have those anyhow, i.e. they fit inside the fireplace box.

Just as a warning, you may be constrained by the depth of your current fireplace opening, as well as your width and height. I recommend finding units you like on the internet on Amazon, Ebay, or a fireplace specialty store, that seem like an appropriate size, and then look at the installation manual to figure out exactly what the size/installation constraints for the unit are. You may have to go smaller that you intend. You can certainly have pro's do all this work, but it's a good idea to know the installation and safety constraints yourself, because in this situation, you're essentially the general contractor. Not every pro hired is infallible, and there are critical safety/health issues involved.

FYI, I compromised my design for various reasons. I bought a house that was an abandoned build, re-permitted everything and rebuilt it to code. The fireplace kickout was already installed (i.e. not rebuilding that structure), and during the rush to get the house done by winter, we just built a platform, threw the DV fireplace unit on it, and hooked up the gas and electronics. When I finally finished the surround this spring, some 3 YEARS (!!) later, a lot had changed. To make a short story long, I'd have preferred to cut that hearth down even lower, maybe even level with the floor with inlaid slate. However, that would have required reinstalling the approximately 170 lb unit, AND maybe the gas line, too. I'm working solo, and didn't feel like setting up the rigging to move it. I also would have preferred a 2" slate hearth, but they ran between $1000 and $1500, plus ridiculous lead times during building season, AND weigh a ton, I went with the 16" square natural slate tiles. Since our theme was "Northern Idaho Rustic", it worked for us. (Still working on reinstalling the gas logs, firebrick backing, and etc.) Note that the colors are skewed due to poor lighting, it's a more consistent, darker color (as is the engineered wood flooring).

In summary, I'd think "outside the box" for your design, and forget about cost. Come up with a couple of different designs and solutions you like, research your target insert, and THEN back the project plan into your price parameters, reusing or substituting what you can. You may find a plan you prefer better than your original compromise solution, for not much more money, particularly if you're hiring a pro to do the work. Better designs and plans = money saved in the long run. Find the unit, identify the unit's requirements, identify your design preferences (i.e. mantel, hearth, exterior stone), bid an HVAC/gas installer to install your insert (he'll pull your permit), and then bid the stone surround work (i.e. find a guy with references, he'll usually direct you to vendors, and get your materials). Get everything bid out and sourced, before you start anything. Every quote will teach you something (or provide you better questions to ask).

FYI, I installed my unit, i.e. a "floor model" 30,000 BTU DV fireplace insert with fans, temp controlled automatic electronics, plus materials (lumber, CBU, fasteners, slate, etc), the original HVAC/vent/gas and carpentry labor, for about $2000, plus/minus a few $100. The cost of this unit alone is about $3500 to $5000, plus the rest of the material and labor costs. I'm certain it'd have cost at least $8K to $10K to have this installed by a pro or fireplace specialty store, including all parts, material, and labor.

Anyhow, just my 2 cents. Good luck with your project.
 
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Anyhow, just my 2 cents. Good luck with your project.

Wow, that was more than 2 cents! Thank you!

You did a great job. Thank you for sharing.

I have thought about all of your comments and have made some modifications to my plan because of them.

I'm now scrapping the mantle and going with stacked stone and a mantle shelf. The stone will go out as wide as the current mantle but it will be about a foot shorter. I'm also reducing the firebox opening so I can stick with a smaller insert surround since I don't want a big metal border.

I did remove the cracked raised hearth top to see what was underneath.

IMG_20200812_090400.jpg


It became evident the reason why the top cracked is because there was a gap between it and the brick. I'm planning to stick with the hearth raised because ripping out the firebox sounds like a big job. Isn't it? I would top the hearth with thick bluestone and do the sides in wood to match the baseboard in the house.

My room is two story with a slanted ceiling so I plan to stop the stacked stone at the mantle shelf. I haven't picked out a mantle shelf yet. I'm guessing I want something pretty basic about 4-6" in height and as wide as the raised hearth top. It'll probably just be painted wood.

Thanks for the tips. You did help me modify my original plans.

I'll think more about the install of the insert. After I get the fireplace surround taken care of, run gas and run electrical it feels like I'm basically doing an appliance install. I guess the only big thing left is the chimney liner. I guess that's one reason why you went with direct vent.

I feel like I'm making good progress. I'm still thinking through a few things so please keep suggestions coming.
 
Those bricks are just spacers to support the hearth, and yes, it's lousy support, the wrong way to do that project, and resulted in the cracked hearth top. ANY natural stone product needs adequate support. Naturalstoneinstitute.org has standards, but generally, it's about 1.25" of plywood, plus a CBU if using stone tiles, for proper adhesion, over a properly framed (or perhaps solid brick or cinder block) base. If the underlying bricks are on something solid (i.e. NOT just wood subfloor), and they had floated a solid bed of mortar "old style", they might have gotten away with it. (I also suspect that those stones are on a poor base, and may have sunk since original installation. You may want to remove them and check your subfloor, i.e. make sure you don't have rot or termite damage underneath both it and your hearth. It's a common area that termites invade, since the fireplace base is frequently in contact with the earth.)

Removing the bottom of the firebox certainly isn't necessary, and the difficulty would depend on construction. Some modern "fireboxes" are simply steel covered by firebrick. That's kind of what your unit looks like, but it could be a solid firebrick or concrete firebox. I was just illustrating the option. Don't be afraid of a little demo. I'd lean towards doing it just so that I was certain of the structure underneath, but that's just me. I don't like mysteries. (After all, they half-a**ed the hearth; wonder what else they gundecked.) You should be fine just installing the firebox insert on top of the existing, but realize, it'll likely raise your hearth even more, since the insert's opening won't be flush with the current fireplace bottom.

Yes, a DV fireplace is an appliance, because it's a sealed gas/propane unit (i.e. metal unit, sealed by glass on the front, with all air exchange via the stack). You run a double walled pipe up your existing stack, the outer wall transports outside air in for combustion, and the inner tube conveys the exhaust. I chose a DV fireplace because it was the most "idiot proof", and this idiot was doing the install. ==c The double walled pipe isn't cheap, but it is an almost "certain" anti-vapor leak solution (i.e. just install it correctly).

The hearth is purely cosmetic in a direct vent, or gas appliance unit. Hearth's are designed as a safe landing point for errant sparks in a wood burning fireplace. You don't need that. So, you could eliminate the hearth, make it level with the floor, our use some sort of wood (reclaimed wood to match the mantel, painted wood, or whatever). It's nothing but a tapestry and you're the artist.

One last thing: You run gas and electric and maybe audio/video stuff BEFORE you install the firebox, surround, or anything else other than the supporting structure. It's

  1. Demo as needed.
  2. Buy unit, so you have the requirements (space, set backs, exhaust) in hand, along with parts.
  3. Build structural support.
  4. Install utilities.
  5. Install vent.
  6. Install unit to mate with vent, and hookup utilities.
  7. Test EVERYTHING to ensure fireplace burner, fans, and etc are working properly.
  8. THEN install surround and hearth.
  9. The mantel can go in before or after #8, depending on what/how you do it. For my installation, I used a french cleat of 5/8" hardwood, placed the mantel on the cleat, and added 6" screws diagonally through two points on top, since my mantel tended to "roll" off the cleat due to it's width. Then I installed the stone around the mantel. Others put the mantel over the stone, and do that last. (Make sure you pay attention to stand offs, i.e. sides, top, and back of appliance, plus proper height of mantel over the top of your firebox openings, as stated by the manufacturer.)
Regarding #7 & #8, don't ask my how I know (found out) that you thoroughly test before sealing everything in. Assumptions ... lol, I won't say more.