Going off grid

[SpaceBus]

After an extremely frustrating call with the local (only) power company, I am thinking about off grid solar again. After reading several posts on these forums I understand that I won't be saving any money, but that's not necessarily the point for me. We plan on installing a wood cook stove with DHW coil before next winter. The house has a solar water heater on the roof, but we don't know the status. The plumber seemed to think it had been bypassed. I've seen many folks say the return on investment for solar hot water is poor, but the infrastructure is already there. We do not have a washer and dryer currently, but maybe we won't at all depending on the feasibility of off grid solar. Otherwise the only thing we need constant electrical power for is the fridge and well pump.

On the other hand it might not be practical to go with solar and I might be stuck at the mercy of the power company. Currently we are responsible for three poles, which was not made known to us until after we closed on the house. The power company told me today that we have to get a contractor to place new poles, the power company won't do it...

 

[BethelStrong]

Good luck. I’ll be watching this thread.

I’m in no position to go completely off grid, and our power is cheap, but it pisses me off to pay an extra $30 per month to have someone come out to read (and read it wrongly sometimes) the meter just so I don’t have to have a smart meter.


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[SpaceBus]

My delivery costs are the same as the cost of the electricity to be produced. It's like we get double billed here. My bills are a little higher due to our old (1975) hot water heater and fridge (don't see an energy star label). Still, we use very little electricity otherwise. According to the power company the average household here uses 500 KWhr per month, but I call BS

 

[Ashful]

500 kWh per week, maybe.

Are you implying your power company varies your rate by usage, and that you are getting the reverse of a “volume discount”?

I always wonder what these “off grid” guys’ wives or families do when they croak or get too old to maintain the system. Live in the dark?

 

[SpaceBus]

500 kWh per week, maybe.

Are you implying your power company varies your rate by usage, and that you are getting the reverse of a “volume discount”?

I always wonder what these “off grid” guys’ wives or families do when they croak or get too old to maintain the system. Live in the dark?

You could pay someone to maintain it I'm sure, but you bring up a valid point. Unfortunately I'm always thinking about what happens if I die. Part of the solar is to keep costs low for my wife if I'm not around, same with the wood cook stove. She's definitely not going to maintain that equipment.

 

[SpaceBus]

I feel like we are pretty modest on power usage. We only watch TV once or twice a week, the house is small, few lights, very limited electric heating, but our bill is still $200-300 every month. Half of the bill is paid to the power plant for the electricity, the other half goes to the power company for delivering the power. I was already unhappy with the cost of electricity, now they tell me I have to deal with three poles. I know that would be cheaper, but it's beyond cost at this point.

 

[peakbagger]

Wow that's tough. Have you been living on a generator since you moved in? Or is there a problem with the current service?. Normally power companies run the poles and charge you for the privilege. Years ago I had to pay a surcharge on my bill for 18 months until two other families moved in my development as the power company only did one "free" pole and I needed three. Some companies offer financing where they surcharge your bill until you pay them off. My brother paid $8,500 to his utility 2 years ago for two tall clearance poles one of them in ledge, a transformer and the cables. I expect they lost money on the deal but they buy poles in bulk and actually hire a sub to set the poles. Border Electric is based somewhere in your area. I think the dad is out of the business but I think his sons that run it and had a good rep 15 years ago. Not much of a referral but that's all I got. If you have trees and in rural area there is lot to be said for using a backhoe to dig a trench, run a conduit and have them pull a direct burial cable in. Unfortunately I don't know how long a distance they can run a cable underground due to voltage loss. Unless someone digs it up you never need to worry about it again.

Going off grid anywhere is expensive up front and there are reoccurring charges for battery replacement. Figure power is going to cost 4 to 5 times what you pay for from a utility. Given the weather and climate in eastern maine you need a very good standby generator and plan on running it a lot in winter. The economics still line up with flooded lead acid batteries. They are very heavy, have to be kept charged and have to be equalized with a generator every few months. Lithium is the next best thing but not yet. Maybe in few years but they still are expensive. Most first time off gridders prematurely "murder" their first set of batteries due to a steep learning curve so most pros recommend going with a cheap set initially and then get a good set when the first set is killed and you have learned your lesson. Edison style nickel iron batteries get a lot of PR but they are expensive and go through lots of water plus the Chinese replacements are not as good as the originals.

You will need a good standby generator and a bulk source of fuel. Many folks end up trading electrical independence for fuel oil independence. A bad thing in rural Maine.

The other big downside is you are the utility and you ultimately end up being the service tech when the lights go out. Few folks have the skills and determination to live with off grid systems. When working and living near rural VT I worked with several long term off gridders and far more former off gridders plus into several folks that were former off gridders and in most cases there were divorces and house fires in their stories. Most battery banks are 48 volts and the amperages are high so when there is a problem if you don't know what you are doing its easy to get severely zapped or start a fire.

One good thing is the federal tax credit can subsidize the cost of the off grid system by 30% (28% in 2020) but given your situation you may not be able to take full advantage of it as its a tax credit so your family needs to have offsetting income taxes. This happens on occasion with retired folks who don't have income. Take a look at this years taxes and see your total tax liability (Line 15 on you form 1040 - Total Tax) , that's all you can offset each year.

I hang out on the Solar PanelTalk forum. There are knowledgeable folks on it but on occasion they can be hard on newbys. Best to lurk and search so you figure out what the dumb questions are. The big answer you need to know is your total daily load in winter and how many days storage you need. Its fairly complicated but the real simple approach is , if you use 4 KWhrs a day and have three cloudy days you need 12 KWhrs of available battery storage plus some to make up for system efficiency loss. You then need enough panels to recharge the batteries in one day or you need to run the generator. The batteries need to be much larger as if you drain them too much you kill the batteries, run them undercharged you kill the batteries, forget to equalize them you kill the batteries, forget to water them kill the batteries, let the terminals get dirty melt a buss bar and possibly start a fire. Lithiums are less picky but they also loose capacity and cost more up front. Note since you are in snow zone, unless the panels are darn close to vertical you will need to shovel them off on occasion and if they are roof mounted that can be a PITA. If you look around for program called PV watts you can see how many panels you need to generate you load in winter based on your location and panel particulars.

That said everyone wants a rough number for system cost. I have 4.6 KW of on grid tied solar which covers my yearly load plus some extra heating but I have a big advantage of net metering so I use my extra power from summer to make up for winter. An off gridder doesn't have that luxury so their system has to be lot larger for winter or they are running the generator a lot. So here is link to place in Mass that I have dealt with in the past and seem to have a good reputation. https://www.altestore.com/store/solar-power-systems/off-grid-home-solar-power-systems-c567/ Now click on the Base Kit #3 which is probably the bare minimum and select a battery option (where you will find out why Flooded Lead Acid is the way to go) and pick a mounting system. Looks like $17K plus install plus a diesel or propane generator. Now plan that even if you are faithful in baby sitting the batteries which few new folks do, you are replacing a few tons of batteries every 10 to 12 years. Now you know why off gird land and homes are only inexpensive on paper and why folks write big checks to hook up to the grid.

 

[BethelStrong]

I feel like we are pretty modest on power usage. We only watch TV once or twice a week, the house is small, few lights, very limited electric heating, but our bill is still $200-300 every month. Half of the bill is paid to the power plant for the electricity, the other half goes to the power company for delivering the power. I was already unhappy with the cost of electricity, now they tell me I have to deal with three poles. I know that would be cheaper, but it's beyond cost at this point.

Wow. Last month we had a ~$130 electric bill. $30 of that is to read the meter, so really it’s only $100. Everything is electric here, except when the heat pump needs emergency heat (LP), but this year neither are being used due to the wood burner and free wood. Yes!

It’s just my wife and I, but we both work at home and use the dishwasher, dryer, run the TV all day in the background, and 2 (and sometimes 4) computers working. I even run 1-3 dehumidifiers.

Last year at this time it was more like $200, so the wood burning has helped if one doesn’t factor labor at all.

I still want me an off grid option, just because. Of course lifestyle would need to change, or I’d need to get two at home jobs or something.


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[SpaceBus]

Wow that's tough. Have you been living on a generator since you moved in? Or is there a problem with the current service?. Normally power companies run the poles and charge you for the privilege. Years ago I had to pay a surcharge on my bill for 18 months until two other families moved in my development as the power company only did one "free" pole and I needed three. Some companies offer financing where they surcharge your bill until you pay them off. My brother paid $8,500 to his utility 2 years ago for two tall clearance poles one of them in ledge, a transformer and the cables. I expect they lost money on the deal but they buy poles in bulk and actually hire a sub to set the poles. Border Electric is based somewhere in your area. I think the dad is out of the business but I think his sons that run it and had a good rep 15 years ago. Not much of a referral but that's all I got. If you have trees and in rural area there is lot to be said for using a backhoe to dig a trench, run a conduit and have them pull a direct burial cable in. Unfortunately I don't know how long a distance they can run a cable underground due to voltage loss. Unless someone digs it up you never need to worry about it again.

Going off grid anywhere is expensive up front and there are reoccurring charges for battery replacement. Figure power is going to cost 4 to 5 times what you pay for from a utility. Given the weather and climate in eastern maine you need a very good standby generator and plan on running it a lot in winter. The economics still line up with flooded lead acid batteries. They are very heavy, have to be kept charged and have to be equalized with a generator every few months. Lithium is the next best thing but not yet. Maybe in few years but they still are expensive. Most first time off gridders prematurely "murder" their first set of batteries due to a steep learning curve so most pros recommend going with a cheap set initially and then get a good set when the first set is killed and you have learned your lesson. Edison style nickel iron batteries get a lot of PR but they are expensive and go through lots of water plus the Chinese replacements are not as good as the originals.

You will need a good standby generator and a bulk source of fuel. Many folks end up trading electrical independence for fuel oil independence. A bad thing in rural Maine.

The other big downside is you are the utility and you ultimately end up being the service tech when the lights go out. Few folks have the skills and determination to live with off grid systems. When working and living near rural VT I worked with several long term off gridders and far more former off gridders plus into several folks that were former off gridders and in most cases there were divorces and house fires in their stories. Most battery banks are 48 volts and the amperages are high so when there is a problem if you don't know what you are doing its easy to get severely zapped or start a fire.

One good thing is the federal tax credit can subsidize the cost of the off grid system by 30% (28% in 2020) but given your situation you may not be able to take full advantage of it as its a tax credit so your family needs to have offsetting income taxes. This happens on occasion with retired folks who don't have income. Take a look at this years taxes and see your total tax liability (Line 15 on you form 1040 - Total Tax) , that's all you can offset each year.

I hang out on the Solar PanelTalk forum. There are knowledgeable folks on it but on occasion they can be hard on newbys. Best to lurk and search so you figure out what the dumb questions are. The big answer you need to know is your total daily load in winter and how many days storage you need. Its fairly complicated but the real simple approach is , if you use 4 KWhrs a day and have three cloudy days you need 12 KWhrs of available battery storage plus some to make up for system efficiency loss. You then need enough panels to recharge the batteries in one day or you need to run the generator. The batteries need to be much larger as if you drain them too much you kill the batteries, run them undercharged you kill the batteries, forget to equalize them you kill the batteries, forget to water them kill the batteries, let the terminals get dirty melt a buss bar and possibly start a fire. Lithiums are less picky but they also loose capacity and cost more up front. Note since you are in snow zone, unless the panels are darn close to vertical you will need to shovel them off on occasion and if they are roof mounted that can be a PITA. If you look around for program called PV watts you can see how many panels you need to generate you load in winter based on your location and panel particulars.

That said everyone wants a rough number for system cost. I have 4.6 KW of on grid tied solar which covers my yearly load plus some extra heating but I have a big advantage of net metering so I use my extra power from summer to make up for winter. An off gridder doesn't have that luxury so their system has to be lot larger for winter or they are running the generator a lot. So here is link to place in Mass that I have dealt with in the past and seem to have a good reputation. https://www.altestore.com/store/solar-power-systems/off-grid-home-solar-power-systems-c567/ Now click on the Base Kit #3 which is probably the bare minimum and select a battery option (where you will find out why Flooded Lead Acid is the way to go) and pick a mounting system. Looks like $17K plus install plus a diesel or propane generator. Now plan that even if you are faithful in baby sitting the batteries which few new folks do, you are replacing a few tons of batteries every 10 to 12 years. Now you know why off gird land and homes are only inexpensive on paper and why folks write big checks to hook up to the grid.

I was afraid of the prohibitive cost. We don't have any issues, yet. A tree almost fell on the lines and it caused the pole to wobble. We went to see why and the pole is quite rotten. I called a solar contactor in Maine and basically they said my system would be too small for them and recommend a local contactor. I'm waiting to hear back. Perhaps you are right and burying the line is better. I am planning on getting a backhoe attachment for my tractor...

 

[peakbagger]

That is real odd, normally the utility has to maintain their equipment to the Point of Connection which is their meter. Unless your meter is mounted out on the street and the poles are between the meter and the house in the vast majority of utilities they are responsible to replace them. Time to get the rules for customer interconnections from the utility and read through them.

 

[SpaceBus]

That is real odd, normally the utility has to maintain their equipment to the Point of Connection which is their meter. Unless your meter is mounted out on the street and the poles are between the meter and the house in the vast majority of utilities they are responsible to replace them. Time to get the rules for customer interconnections from the utility and read through them.

The meter is on the house. The power company sent us a letter back in December informing us that we own the poles and lines. Their terminology is "private poles". This was not mentioned when I started my account before moving here. It wouldn't have stopped me, but maybe we could have gotten the house cheaper...

 

[Where2]

Is one of the three poles we are discussing the pole with the transformer on it?

Rarely does the power company ever say you own the pole with the transformer on it. Poles that simply support the service line, sure they say you own those all the time, but not poles with transformers on them. Pull out your boundary survey for the property, you did purchase a boundary survey prepared by a surveyor when you bought this place, right? Pull out the map and see whether the poles in question are in an easement shown on the map. If you didn't have a surveyor prepare a boundary survey, I'll stop asking questions...

If you're going to buy a back hoe for your tractor, I think I'd talk to the power company about how deep they want the conduit, what size they want the conduit, and whether they want to plant a ground mounted transformer in an easement at the end of the conduit, or whether you should just oversize the conductors going into the conduit? Three poles is probably not more than 400', given Maine's not flat terrain. In FL, they get away with ~150' between poles, but it's crazy flat here.

Start lobbying your governor and state legislature to reinstate net metering.

 

[SpaceBus]

Is one of the three poles we are discussing the pole with the transformer on it?

Rarely does the power company ever say you own the pole with the transformer on it. Poles that simply support the service line, sure they say you own those all the time, but not poles with transformers on them. Pull out your boundary survey for the property, you did purchase a boundary survey prepared by a surveyor when you bought this place, right? Pull out the map and see whether the poles in question are in an easement shown on the map. If you didn't have a surveyor prepare a boundary survey, I'll stop asking questions...

If you're going to buy a back hoe for your tractor, I think I'd talk to the power company about how deep they want the conduit, what size they want the conduit, and whether they want to plant a ground mounted transformer in an easement at the end of the conduit, or whether you should just oversize the conductors going into the conduit? Three poles is probably not more than 400', given Maine's not flat terrain. In FL, they get away with ~150' between poles, but it's crazy flat here.

Start lobbying your governor and state legislature to reinstate net metering.

We have a survey, but it is older. We were going to get a new survey this summer either way. That pole is a private pole according to the power company. My driveway is off of a dirt road that is not a part of my property. My neighbor on the dirt road is further up the hill/down the road from me. The neighbor's power lines run on poles that are right next to the decrepit old poles that my lines are attached to. As far as I can figure it my house was built first and a different power company put the poles utilized by my house that is no longer around. The current power company wants nothing to do with these poles or lines. There are about 1,200 feet of lines with three poles between my house and the state maintained paved road. None of this makes any sense to me and it's ridiculous.

In the attached diagram my lines are in red and the neighbor's are in purple.

 

[peakbagger]

Sounds to me like you have lot of choices none of them great. Its highly unusual that a utility would allow a service to go in without a service agreement that calls out what party is responsible for what. You can ask for a copy of that agreement and may need to lawyer up to get a copy of the actual original contract. Given you are in a rural area I expect the paperwork may have not have been filled in properly and that may open up the utility to have to take responsibility for the poles. The key thing you need to confirm is what is generally called the Point of Connection (POC) which is the legal point where the utility responsibility is handed off to the consumer. This is almost always the meter and if you elect not to pay for power that is usually where the utility pulls the meter which is a disconnect. Frequently what has been done in the past is not necessarily current policy so they may be trying to cover up mistakes on their part in the past by trying to bully you into fixing what is their responsibility. Years ago the phone company got in trouble as they didn't have clear boundaries between their wiring and the home owners wiring as they used to be responsible for both. They ended up having to install network interface boxes to establish the boundary. They dont have a meter but if you open the network interface box you will find a place to unplug the phone service and if you call for service and they find the problem in the wiring on your side of the interface its an expensive service call.

I have a suspicion that if someone was injured by contact with the power line between the meter and the mainline that the utility would end up liable.

If you do own the poles and they are just rotten underground but solid above ground there are ways of bracing the pole. An electrical contractor can drill in a support or supports next to the pole and then attach the pole to the support. If the soil is soft they can put in helical screw anchors to brace the pole.

 

[SpaceBus]

Sounds to me like you have lot of choices none of them great. Its highly unusual that a utility would allow a service to go in without a service agreement that calls out what party is responsible for what. You can ask for a copy of that agreement and may need to lawyer up to get a copy of the actual original contract. Given you are in a rural area I expect the paperwork may have not have been filled in properly and that may open up the utility to have to take responsibility for the poles. The key thing you need to confirm is what is generally called the Point of Connection (POC) which is the legal point where the utility responsibility is handed off to the consumer. This is almost always the meter and if you elect not to pay for power that is usually where the utility pulls the meter which is a disconnect. Frequently what has been done in the past is not necessarily current policy so they may be trying to cover up mistakes on their part in the past by trying to bully you into fixing what is their responsibility. Years ago the phone company got in trouble as they didn't have clear boundaries between their wiring and the home owners wiring as they used to be responsible for both. They ended up having to install network interface boxes to establish the boundary. They dont have a meter but if you open the network interface box you will find a place to unplug the phone service and if you call for service and they find the problem in the wiring on your side of the interface its an expensive service call.

I have a suspicion that if someone was injured by contact with the power line between the meter and the mainline that the utility would end up liable.

If you do own the poles and they are just rotten underground but solid above ground there are ways of bracing the pole. An electrical contractor can drill in a support or supports next to the pole and then attach the pole to the support. If the soil is soft they can put in helical screw anchors to brace the pole.

Thanks for the advice. A "planner" from the utility company is coming out to look around and tell us what we need to do. The lines aren't currently having issues, but I want to be on top of any issues before a pole falls or lines set my forest on fire. We are going to talk to the town hall and see if we can find out some more information

 

[SpaceBus]

Yesterday I spoke to a local off grid solar contractor yesterday and he gave me a $10-15k price range for a full off grid system. It was a very long conversation, but a lot of good came out of it. If these poles cost over $5k to remediate, off grid will happen. We've been searching the cost of propane/ng and appliances. We hate the glass top range and have been talking about replacing since before we bought the house and a propane/NG on demand water heater will greatly reduce electric dependency. I know I'm trading one dependency for another, but I really hate the power company. Even if I could get my electric bill down to $50/month, depending on the cost to repair my lines, I'll still come out ahead even if I have to replace solar batteries in ten years if I go off grid. Since the power company is simply refusing to repair or replace the poles, then I don't have to cut the grid connection until something takes the lines down or we chose to disconnect, so that's nice. I am very curious about what happens to the transformer.

 

[BethelStrong]

I am very curious about what happens to the transformer.

Sounds like you own the transformer, if you own the poles


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[SpaceBus]

Sounds like you own the transformer, if you own the poles


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I would think such a thing is pretty valuable. I brought this up to my wife and she said it might be illegal to sell it.

 

[peakbagger]

Depending on the age it could be hazardous waste as PCBs used to be used for transformer oil..

 

[BethelStrong]

I would think such a thing is pretty valuable. I brought this up to my wife and she said it might be illegal to sell it.

Save it for when SHTF and the grid goes down from the CME from the Super Grand Solar Minimum. Nothing will be illegal then.


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[SpaceBus]

Depending on the age it could be hazardous waste as PCBs used to be used for transformer oil..

Yeah, I'm terrified of the pole blowing down during our regularly high winds and destroying our cars, tractor, and house from an electrical and/or transformer fire. I've been reading about propane appliances and doing the math on the cost of ownership over ten years off grid vs continuing with Emera (without factoring in remediating the poles) and it seems off grid is the answer.

At some point in the future I will have to pay for continued electrical service. I can pay it up front with off grid and potentially end up saving money over my lifetime or pay to have the poles remediated and continue to pay for emera to deliver our power. Yeah, maybe an attorney will be able to convince emera to maintain the poles, but that's not going to be free either.

Between a solar water heater (the plumbing is already in place), wood cook stove with DHW coil, LP cooking appliance, LP on demand water heater, and an LP backup heater me and my wife should be able to comfortably live off grid with a good solar setup with storage. We already have a generator. I'm still researching LP refrigerators, but right now it seems that super efficient electric fridges are still better.

 

[SpaceBus]

Save it for when SHTF and the grid goes down from the CME from the Super Grand Solar Minimum. Nothing will be illegal then.


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I don't know if society will ever collapse during my lifetime, in fact I doubt it. However I still want to be independent from the grid.

 

[BethelStrong]

Yeah, I'm terrified of the pole blowing down during our regularly high winds and destroying our cars, tractor, and house from an electrical and/or transformer fire. I've been reading about propane appliances and doing the math on the cost of ownership over ten years off grid vs continuing with Emera (without factoring in remediating the poles) and it seems off grid is the answer.

At some point in the future I will have to pay for continued electrical service. I can pay it up front with off grid and potentially end up saving money over my lifetime or pay to have the poles remediated and continue to pay for emera to deliver our power. Yeah, maybe an attorney will be able to convince emera to maintain the poles, but that's not going to be free either.

Between a solar water heater (the plumbing is already in place), wood cook stove with DHW coil, LP cooking appliance, LP on demand water heater, and an LP backup heater me and my wife should be able to comfortably live off grid with a good solar setup with storage. We already have a generator. I'm still researching LP refrigerators, but right now it seems that super efficient electric fridges are still better.

I think there is something to be said for the multiple off grid strategy vs. just electric. Sure one must pay up front or the net price is the same or even more considering labor and maintenance, but with the mentality of today’s folks I can’t help but think the electric prices will go up over our lifetimes. If I was 70 I may not think the same.


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[BethelStrong]

I don't know if society will ever collapse during my lifetime, in fact I doubt it. However I still want to be independent from the grid.

Society has already collapsed. I was talking about total destruction, which is way more fun to contemplate [emoji848]

You mentioned losing your tractor and stuff in case of a downed powerline, obviously more probable. Hell, a deadly car accident is more probable than anything, and we have insurance for loss of things. Like I said, I understand the desire to be a little more independent. There are degrees though, and we all have our own setting.


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[SpaceBus]

I think there is something to be said for the multiple off grid strategy vs. just electric. Sure one must pay up front or the net price is the same or even more considering labor and maintenance, but with the mentality of today’s folks I can’t help but think the electric prices will go up over our lifetimes. If I was 70 I may not think the same.


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My wife and I are also trying to do this in a away that will be easy for us when we are old. I'm also hoping battery/storage technology will improve in the next ten years. If storage tech improves, we won't need as much, if any, propane and maintenance should be easier. If anything our ability to remain independent from utilities should only improve over time. There are a dozen or so families in my area living off the grid, so it is possible.

Unless something big happens in the way of renewable electricity generation the costs of electricity will only rise. My power company actually just this month raised rates!