Good morning! I’m green as green can get! I’m interested in putting a small wood stove in my 1200sf house. My living room doesn’t have a “good” spot for one but my dining room which is open to the living and kitchen does. I’m thinking about one in a corner. I was looking at possibly a Jotul Black bear. Besides the $2200 just for the stove sticker shock I’m also concerned about warping and cracking. So, maybe steel stove? Also, do I need a stove that big. It’s rated to heat 1400 sqft. The back of the house is just bedrooms and I can’t see the heat making it that far without roasting the rooms the stove is in first. So, what brand names in steel stoves should I consider looking into and Possibly a recommended size. Thanks.
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I would think a cast iron stove would be much more durable than a steel stove. Not sure about your comment on warping and cracking.
I’ve read reviews on the Jotul having to rebuild due to warping and cracking. Also, websites on wood stoves. Pro and cons. Saying cast will retain heat longer but can crack.
Grizzerbear
Minister of Fire
I cant speak on the black bear since i have never had one but i can say jotul makes good products from what i can tell from this site and a few friends. I wouldnt be afraid of warping or cracking a cast stove if you are running the stove like you should. A steel stove will do this if you overfire it as well eventually. Your house size is just shy of mine. If it is decently insulated you can get away with a smaller firebox size stove but i would look for stoves around 2 cf firebox. Jotul site says black bear is rated to heat up to 2000 sq ft from what i see. In any case using the house sqf ratings is misleading because houses are all built different, different insulating qualities, weather....u get it. At 1200 sq ft honestly i would look at a cat stove like a blake king sirrocco 20 series. They are pricy as well but the clearances are awesome on them.....which is a plus in small house and you can use blower to help get that heat to those bedrooms.....turn it down while your eating in dining room.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Yes, steel stoves are usually found to be more durable than cast stoves, not because of steel vs. iron, but because of welds vs. cement and gaskets. However, either one operated within its directions and limits should give you ~20 years of reliable performance. You should never have issues with warping a stove unless you have failed to maintain the gaskets or are operating it in a way that violates the instructions.
1200 s.f. is a relatively small space, which usually means going one of two routes:
1. A smaller non-cat stove, which will have a comparatively short burn time due to the small size of the fuel tank.
2. A medium cat stove, which will usually cost more, but can give you a much longer burn time.
The issue here is that all modern (EPA) wood stoves work best in a batch-burning mode. This means that, unlike a fireplace or antique stove where you may just chuck a few sticks into it every 2 hours, any EPA wood stove works best when loaded full and set for a given burn period. This is because they rely on getting a secondary burn system (the aforementioned “cat” or “non-cat” system) up to operating temperature, which extracts far more heat from the wood than the older tech.
The reason you can go bigger on a cat stove is that they can usually be turned down to a much lower burn rate than a non-cat, because the catalyst can support the secondary burn system operation at a lower temperature (500F vs. 1100F for non-cat).
Because you mention you’re price sensitive, I’d be looking at the smaller NC from Englander. I believe Drolet also has a smaller (1.7’ish cu.ft.) stove that gets solid reviews. If looking at medium cat stoves, you’d be in the “20” series from BK, or the Fireview from Woodstock, but these are substantially more than the $$ that gave you sticker shock in your OP.
You’re going to be in the < 2 cu.ft. non-cats or > 2 cu.ft. cat stove territory. Figure maybe 6 hours burn time from these small non-cats, or roughly double that from a medium cat stove, as your likely sweet spot in that size space.
I never see damaged steel stoves, unless they are old pre EPA junkers. I do see damaged iron and soapstone stoves though. The iron stoves that are damaged have been abused for sure. If you like Jotul, I would not let the fear of iron steer you away. They make awesome products!
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Nope, just the opposite, in most cases. Steel stoves are thinner, and so there are a few cases where one in a wet basement or other adverse conditions has rusted thru, but that’s pretty rare. What we see much more frequently is failed cement seams or gaskets on a cast iron stove. There isn’t much more durable than a welded steel box.
But again, either one operated within its limits should last decades. Unless you have a plan to abuse the stove, or are somehow averse to keeping your door gasket(s) in good condition, you should not have any trouble with either.
Jotul has always had very good quality, but they are also premium priced stoves.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
... oh, and Jotul also makes both constructions, I believe. They have their traditional Castine, Oslo, Firelight (400,500,600) series, which are cemented iron construction with a gasketed lid, which is what I had owned in the past. Then I believe their newer F50/55 products are welded steel boxes with cast cladding hung on that, more similar to my new BK’s.
The F118 may not be the best choice for this application. It is a radiant stove with higher clearances than some others so it will project further into the room. Consider the Jotul F45 as an alternative. This is a steel stove inside with a cast iron jacket. The cast iron jacket acts as a buffer and helps reduce room temp swings.
The bedrooms may get some heat with a simple fan assistance. Look for posts here on moving the heat.
The bedrooms may get some heat with a simple fan assistance. Look for posts here on moving the heat.
I got my SIL a non-cat PE Alderlea T5, and I've been surprised how long it will keep throwing heat, even if we just load a few splits at a time, like 1/3 load. Part of that may be due to the buffer effect of the cast iron over steel box construction. I can some back many hours later and the stove top will still be over 250 and supplying meaningful heat.
If the OP's house has decent insulation and air-sealing, and someone is around during the day to burn partial loads (which also put out less peak heat on mild days,) a non-cat would be a good choice, and generally cheaper, and less maintenance, than a cat stove.
Even if the house is empty all day, you could let the stove temp fall after a partial load, let house temp fall well down into the 60s, then kick the furnace back up for twenty minutes when you get home, while the stove gets back up to temp after reloading.
You may get the basic PE (not cast iron jacket) version in the T4 size, for a reasonable price. Sounds like he may be willing to spend a little more up front for quality, and I think that's the way to go. (The chimney can cost as much or more than the stove will.)
Oh yeah, and you can also distribute the heat to the far reaches by using a small 8" desk fan, back in the bedroom hallway on the floor, blowing cool, dense air back toward the stove room, which will augment the natural convection loop and displace warm air out of the stove room and toward the bedrooms. Works great, and allows you to sit in the stove room, as the hot air is up closer to the ceiling.
Keep in mind to that the only F-118 you are likely to find is a display at a store. This stove is not a good seller and many didn’t stock them, now that it’s discontinued it’ll be slim pickins.
Not that I can think of, on modern stoves anyway. Other than consumable parts here and there.
No cracks in the air manifolds of quads lopis or regencies? No cracks on the faces? No warped faces? I find that amazing. So far this year we have pulled out a regency a quad and two harmans that were destroyed. The regency was replaced under warranty
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We don’t deal with quad or regency, and rarely run into them. We service what we sell for the most part, and thats almost impossible to keep with. I have seen a few old Lopi Liberty’s with a crack in the upright secondary air channel, which had a repair kit available. After 50 or so years the place I work has tried hard to weed out inferior products. I’m lucky in that aspect I guess. I don’t see totally random things everyday like you do. Chimneys ya, but the stoves and inserts, we have a record of each one in the computer and the customer typically.
FYI when you do your budget make sure you include the cost for a proper stack. Plan on doubling the cost of the stove.
There have been crappy steel stoves and cast iron stoves built over the years. Either material when designed properly can make a long lasting stove. I have seen welds on a steel stove in the past that looked as bad as my stick welds and it was obvious that there was no surface prep done, they just put a "manure" rod on the lead and hoped they ended up with a good weld. The old Scandia copys of Jotuls and VCs and the Portland Stove Foundry clones all had very low quality castings, it was not unknown for the castings to split while the stove was running.
The transition to the new EPA 2020 stoves will most likely be hard for some stove companies, Its possible to meet the new standards and end up with very user unfriendly stove.
BTW, if you are new to burning realize that its highly unlikely that you will be burning wood this winter unless you have a source of dry wood. Unless there is local firewood supplier with a kiln, any supplier will have long ago sold any dry firewood. The only thing they have is damp wood, they may call it seasoned but do not believe it. The only other option is find a friend with a few years worth of firewood and offer to trade some green wood for some dry wood (plus some beer).
There have been crappy steel stoves and cast iron stoves built over the years. Either material when designed properly can make a long lasting stove. I have seen welds on a steel stove in the past that looked as bad as my stick welds and it was obvious that there was no surface prep done, they just put a "manure" rod on the lead and hoped they ended up with a good weld. The old Scandia copys of Jotuls and VCs and the Portland Stove Foundry clones all had very low quality castings, it was not unknown for the castings to split while the stove was running.
The transition to the new EPA 2020 stoves will most likely be hard for some stove companies, Its possible to meet the new standards and end up with very user unfriendly stove.
BTW, if you are new to burning realize that its highly unlikely that you will be burning wood this winter unless you have a source of dry wood. Unless there is local firewood supplier with a kiln, any supplier will have long ago sold any dry firewood. The only thing they have is damp wood, they may call it seasoned but do not believe it. The only other option is find a friend with a few years worth of firewood and offer to trade some green wood for some dry wood (plus some beer).
Every stove manufacturer has failures. Mostly because of operator error. What steel stoves does the shop you work for sell? Or do you just not go out on problem calls? I know you also said you don't see failed chimneys or liners. Which we see a few of each every year also.
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So you think a shop that’s been in a small town for 50+ years just ignores problem calls? That would be impossible. Maybe people in my area don’t burn like they do there? We certainly don’t have people trying to burn coal and screwing up liners and stoves.
No I never said your shop doesn't respond to problems. I asked if you were not the one to respond. We have people burning coal in coal stoves yes. And a few through the years who have tried it in wood stoves. But most of the failures are not from that blatant of abuse. Just using their system hard
As mentioned a properly maintained and operated cast iron stove should last for many years without any issues. I suspect most of the warping you have seen with the cast iron stove is due to running the stove way too hot or doing something foolish like leaving the ash pan door open to get the fire going which effectively turns the woodstove into a forge.
Steel or cast iron are pretty robust stoves in my biased opinion.
I tend to encourage folks who are thinking about a stove to put one in the space they spend most of their time in . . . for me that's the living room. 1) You will soon come to love the heat the woodstove puts out and will want to be in that room. 2) It's nice to be in the room and just enjoy the view, sounds, etc. of the fire and 3) It's nice to be able to easily see where you are in the burning cycle.
That said . . . this doesn't always work for folks.
I also typically encourage most folks to figure out their home's size, look at the stoves recommended for that size and then go one stove size larger. It's easier to build a small fire in a larger firebox, than it is to build a larger fire in an already too full small firebox when it really gets cold.
RE: Heat Management. Depending on the home's layout it is possible to heat up rooms further away from the room with the stove. In my two story Cape most rooms are quite comfortable. The room with the stove typically is in the low 70s which I find comfortable . . . as you go a room or two out the temps begin to drop a degree or two. Upstairs is typically similar to the temps in the rest of the home. There are a few rooms which do tend to get cool due to my home's layout -- the master bedroom and master bath (I like the bedroom cooler though and use an electric blanket in the coldest months . . . and a small electric heater in the bathroom during showering) and, ironically enough, the utility room with the heating oil boiler. Many folks have good luck using a fan or two pointed towards the stove from an adjacent room to circulate the heated air.
There are lots and lots of great stoves. Since you mentioned the sticker shock on the Jotul, I might respectively suggest the Englander, Napolean or Regency steel stove line up. There are a number of positive comments about these stoves.
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