Grundfos Pump, Taco flanges?

[Clarkbug]

So your temps say that the inlet to the Hx is only 179, so you cant expect that your storage will go much higher than that. Plus you are only dropping two degrees, so you arent even dropping much heat in there. I dont think its a pumping issue at this point. If you can figure out how to get the inlet temp into the Hx up, thats the first step I would think.

EDIT: Or am I reading this all wrong and you are trying to bump the temp of the outlet to your radiator loop?

 

[HeatFarmer]

So your temps say that the inlet to the Hx is only 179, so you cant expect that your storage will go much higher than that. Plus you are only dropping two degrees, so you arent even dropping much heat in there. I dont think its a pumping issue at this point. If you can figure out how to get the inlet temp into the Hx up, thats the first step I would think.

EDIT: Or am I reading this all wrong and you are trying to bump the temp of the outlet to your radiator loop?

Your 1st thought was right. As far as the radiator loop is going, it's working fine. I'm trying to get as much heat as possible into storage. That 179º reading wasn't with boiler at maximum. Right now I'm reading 181º HX inlet, 174º HX outlet & 176º top of storage temp. It has come up from 172º in a 3hr burn time. I just check the boiler....it is reading 192º on the controller, in full gasification. It's got to be in the low 20º in the boiler room and 11º outside. I think I may start logging the two temps at the HX to see how they go......

 

[Clarkbug]

A 5 degree difference between your top of tank temp and Hx inlet temp isnt too shabby at all for an unpressurized system. I dont know anything about the EKO as far as getting your supply water temps up, but it seems like others here in this thread had some good ideas.

You are like me in that we are both trying to tweak brand new systems before we really have them done I need to insulate my piping and storage, and it sounds like you may need to get your boiler room sealed up some before tweaking things too much more. We have the rest of the winter to try and tweak. Speaking of which, Im off to go get some insulation.

 

[HeatFarmer]

Mikefrommain On my biomass I fooled the sensor to match the outlet temp of the boiler. I loosened the clamp that holds the probe, slid it most of the way threw, clamped it back down and put a small piece of insulation around the probe except the very
small part that is clamped. Works great heating up. It is slightly delayed cooling down but not very much. Havn't
heard of any one complain of this with the EKO.

I just read the thread here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/72555/ and have just come in from performing this same trick....RESULT! My boiler water gauge was showing 183º while the EKO controller was LYING to me and saying things were 194º......SO....I opened up the hood & lifted the clamp. Boiler temp dropped to 182 & started firing. By the time it kicked off at 195º the temp gauge was reading just under 200º

The temp in storage shot up almost 5º just in the time I left to perform this operation. Time will tell if I can break the 185º mark and head on up to 190º.....
Such a simple tweak to a problem which shouldn't really be.....

 

[willworkforwood]

Of all the numbers that you've mentioned, the most important one is House=64. Assuming that's not what you have the T-stat set at, how far away is it from what you want it to be? Have you tried to see how the boiler does just heating the house? (i.e. bypassing storage completely). I'm not knocking the value of storage in any way, just asking this question because it isn't making much sense to me that you boiler is idling, the FHA HX delta T is only 7*, and the house is 64, unless that's what you want it to be :bug:. Maybe if you took storage out of the mix temporarily (if you haven't already tried that), you could find out how the pumps work with just the loads. Then if that works, you could run without storage until you get a better (warmer) time to be able to make changes.

 

[Clarkbug]

Glad to hear you got it tweaked HeatFarmer! Always nice to feel like something good is happening.

One question for you.... What is the continuous heat rating on the liner that you have in your heat bank? I know that they sell a couple of different types, and Im not sure where they top out. Would hate to see bad things happen if that got too warm on you...

 

[HeatFarmer]

Of all the numbers that you've mentioned, the most important one is House=64. Assuming that's not what you have the T-stat set at, how far away is it from what you want it to be? Have you tried to see how the boiler does just heating the house? (i.e. bypassing storage completely). I'm not knocking the value of storage in any way, just asking this question because it isn't making much sense to me that you boiler is idling, the FHA HX delta T is only 7*, and the house is 64, unless that's what you want it to be :bug:. Maybe if you took storage out of the mix temporarily (if you haven't already tried that), you could find out how the pumps work with just the loads. Then if that works, you could run without storage until you get a better (warmer) time to be able to make changes.

I have low temp rad panels in the house...they start heating at 160º. I can get all the heat for them even after I begin charging storage. Given the area the radiators are trying to heat and the fact that every window in this place leaks air and there is little insulation in some walls I am very pleased with 64º just from the boiler system. It is a VAST improvement over keeping it at 58º with the propane furnace running constantly! Now that I don't have to worry about the propane furnace giving out any more....it was old, inefficient and constantly breaking down--I can begin to tighten up the house as funds are available.

Now that I have tweaked the probe on the boiler to reflect reality in the water temperature, I am sure I can get storage up without idling so much. That will also improve with drier wood & improved insulation in the boiler room so it is not fighting such cold temps there. The original idea was to have the slabs heating the boiler room from the return-to-boiler water, but launching the system on the coldest day of the year so far put the kibosh on that...... So that part of the equation--warmer boiler room, preheated wood drying out quicker--will have to wait until I can get it online in the spring & ready for next year!

 

[willworkforwood]

Tightening up your house will definitely produce the results you're looking for. And I tip my hat to you - If my house was 64* (not even to speak of 58), I would be the only one living in it %-P

 

[HeatFarmer]

Tightening up your house will definitely produce the results you're looking for. And I tip my hat to you - If my house was 64* (not even to speak of 58), I would be the only one living in it %-P

LOL...my wife is a bit of a hot-house flower....but God bless her, she's a practical woman...during the propane regime she was the one who insisted the furnace be kept down so we wouldn't shoot through cash heating this airy hovel...we just kept the wood stoves chock full & going like a steam locomotive..... Now that it is *much* warmer with no constant need to feed fires & she can cozy up in a chair by a radiator, she is mildly more content......

 

[HeatFarmer]

Glad to hear you got it tweaked HeatFarmer! Always nice to feel like something good is happening.

One question for you.... What is the continuous heat rating on the liner that you have in your heat bank? I know that they sell a couple of different types, and Im not sure where they top out. Would hate to see bad things happen if that got too warm on you...

Tom's liners are rated for 195º They can go higher, but it's not preferred....as if I could get it there! They are made of a modified PVC I think....It is flexible and resists getting brittle over time. I specifically went this way once I found out the liner could withstand the heat...I did not want to go with EPDM as it breaks down way to fast and does bad things to HX-ers.

 

[leaddog]

Just my thoughts on the probe for the controller on the eko. I have found the probe tells the temp of the top of the primary water and NOT the temp of the water leaving the boiler. I have a pid controller with the probe just before the 3way valve. That reading IS the temp of the water leaving the boiler. It can vary as much as 15* either way depending on just loading cold wood, idle, hot burn etc. I have since moved the controller probe to the outlet pipe and even there it will vary 10*. The big problem I can see is if you move the controller probe to get the actual water temp leaving the boiler and try and get the temp up to 195* you run the very real chance that at times the temp on the top of the primary chamber will be over boiling. This is because there isn't good mixing of the water in the boiler. If the primary chamber is HOT and if you are injecting cool water into the return then the water leaving the boiler could be colder as that cooler water is just passing thru the hx and not past the top. The top water is slowly feeding into the exit water. Because there is alot of transfer from the sides and top to small amount of water will rise fast to the top and the top will get hot faster. I know I'm rambling here but what I'm trying to say is it might not be the best idea to try and get those last 5* and take the chance on over heating. I've heard some kettling in mine and haven't had any problem but try and keep the storage temp down to less than 185 and no problem. I like a large safty margin.
I do think it would have been better if the inlet had been placed in the front that it would have made a better flow thru the boiler but then maybe it would have tended to by pass the exchanger. Its working ok the way it is so I guess it's best to leave sleeping dogs lay.
leaddog

 

[HeatFarmer]

Thanks for the input lead dog.....I had thought about moving the probe to the outlet, but like you say, this could allow for a huge problem if the boiler is pushed. Instead I raised the probe about 1/16th inch above the top of the boiler. This allows the boiler control to reflect a bit more closely what is going on with the water temp leaving the system as displayed by a gauge on the supply outlet right by the boiler control. It is still set so that it shuts down the boiler fan as it approaches 195º and the water temp is reading between 195-199º depending. I'm going to watch it closely to see what happens but it seems to be working for now. My storage is *still* only getting to 184-5º.....