gw100, sidearm trouble

[docgogo]

I recently talked with central boiler dealer he always uses a 006 taco on his sidearms
i was wondering could a person use a taco 007 with bronze cartridge to help circulate the water?
I have tried to get the sediment out of the bottom of my tank by running water out of the boiler drain about 3-4 times now but it hasn't helped
I usually get about 10-15 gal of 115-120 water without the electricity on.
during my last post someone suggested a direct fire water heater seems like a great setup but cost about 750-900 plus shipping which is out of my reach right now. I've spent approx 18-19000.00 on my system when i thought i would be spending maybe 13-14000.00
If the pump dosen't help i thought i would put a 10 or 20 plate heat exchanger just before the sidearm ??
any help would be greatly appreciated.
you guys were right my dealer hasn't been any help at all. thanks doc

 

[Eric Johnson]

A bronze Taco 007 would work well. You could probably even get away with a cast iron 007. I ran one like that for several years with no problems. Might be worth sacrificing a $50 every three years.

 

[atlarge54]

I recently talked with central boiler dealer he always uses a 006 taco on his sidearms
i was wondering could a person use a taco 007 with bronze cartridge to help circulate the water?
I have tried to get the sediment out of the bottom of my tank by running water out of the boiler drain about 3-4 times now but it hasn't helped
I usually get about 10-15 gal of 115-120 water without the electricity on.
during my last post someone suggested a direct fire water heater seems like a great setup but cost about 750-900 plus shipping which is out of my reach right now. I've spent approx 18-19000.00 on my system when i thought i would be spending maybe 13-14000.00
If the pump dosen't help i thought i would put a 10 or 20 plate heat exchanger just before the sidearm ??
any help would be greatly appreciated.
you guys were right my dealer hasn't been any help at all. thanks doc

Too bad about your sidearm woes. I used the info from Central Boiler to hook up my sidearm and there's no second pump in the diagram. When you drained your tank what came out? Assuming you have a well do you have a string wound filter for your water? They're cheap and worth the money. If you install a pump you're ruining one of a sidearms' benefits, SIMPLICITY. Has anyone looked to see if it's plumbed properly? Are there some type of heat traps on newer water heaters that defeat the thermosiphon effect? Unless you have tremendous DHW loads a pump is a continuous waste of electricity. Pump only as a last resort.

 

[docgogo]

well what i got out was a lot of sediment so much that my boiler drain was stopped up. replaced it and have been draining off 15-20 minutes of water from boiler drain at least once a week. has helped only marginally was getting about 5 gal of 102 deg. water and now get about 10-15 gal. of 120 deg water.
a lot of post say they have to siphon off water from bottom of tank each week. where can you get one of the string wound filter lowes maybe what do they call them ?thanks doc

 

[atlarge54]

About any home center has them and the replacement cartridges aren't very expensive. Make sure to install with isolation valves. When I did my current home I tried the cheapo white and red plastic ball valves and it wasn't long before I threw them away. You might try placing an orbital sander on the sidearm when draining sediment to help free things up. I've never had sediment problems but it does seem to be a common problem. Good luck

 

[docgogo]

here are some pictures of my sidearm . also a drawing no i'm not an artist included some detail pictures to help. any help will greatly be appreciated. electric bill through the roof.
have tried to drain off debris from bottom of tank
used a palm sander to loosen any debris
still only 5-10 gal of 105 degree water.
still waiting on dealer and greenwood.
thanks in advance. doc

 

[Vtgent49]

I have a set-up like that heating 80 gal DHW with indoor boiler water, after it has passed thru the baseboards. The boiler water is pumped, and the DHW water thermosyphons. It provides plenty of DHW for 3. I have a filter on the cold water inlet (everyone should have one for any kind of tank).

My tank stratifies. Top temp and bottom temp are usually 30 degrees apart. So, I might just get 90 degree water out of the drain, but 120 out of the top. Or 100 and 130. I can't imagine a pump would be needed, although it might reduce the stratification differential.

I have heavily insulated the HX, to prevent reverse thermosyphon, and may put in a check valve to prevent loss, especially when the boiler is off all summer.

Tank sediment may be built up deep if that tank has been there a while. Luckily my tank has an access hole, so I can reach inside to clean it.

What temps do you see reaching the HX from the Greenwood? And how big is that tank?

 

[antknee2]

Could you take more pictures of how the side arm connects to the top of the water heater , or dose it use the T&P;relief valve fitting for a return to the boiler ?? Anthony

 

[docgogo]

The size of your attachments must not exceed 350 KB how can i attach more files?

 

[antknee2]

The size of your attachments must not exceed 350 KB how can i attach more files?

yes you can , just keep your eye on the character counter on the bottom .

 

[docgogo]

40 gallon electric tank
turned off electric
removed bottom element
attempted to clean out tank (ran water through it)
let tank sit without electric for about 6-8 hrs.
measured water temps started out at 126
then down to 105 about 2" of water i'm guessing about 15 gal.
any ideas would be great. thanks doc

 

[Eric Johnson]

If the tank has mineral buildup at the bottom, then the only way to clean it out might be with vinegar. That stuff can build up hard as a rock. If it's an older water heater with significant lime accumulation, you might be out of luck.

If it's just loose sediment like rust or mineral granules, then flushing might work.

 

[antknee2]

Hope this helps Anthony

 

[docgogo]

that is actually the pipe that goes into the water heater to the left is the relief valve.
i know sometimes im a little slow about this stuff still learning.
i always thought it was correct my installer did install the sidearm

 

[antknee2]

that is actually the pipe that goes into the water heater to the left is the relief valve.
i know sometimes im a little slow about this stuff still learning.
i always thought it was correct my installer did install the sidearm

Imagine at the turn of the century entire heating systems were designed to operate on gravity with out the help of any circulator pumps .

 

[leaddog]

I can't tell for sure from the pic but it looks like the top of the sidearm is higher than the water heater. If that is the case then that is the proplem. You are trying to make the hot water go down hill. The sidearm can't be higher and get much flow.
leaddog

 

[docgogo]

so would the pump taco 007 help
i've thought about doing the 007 and a 20 plate heat exchanger.
also looks like my boiler is to small took off the hot tub with better results.
would my dealer be responsible since he sized the unit

 

[Vtgent49]

Actually, that latest pic has confused me as to what configuration that you have.

But from the info supplied, I believe that your thermosyphon is moving fine, despite the debris in the bottom. You will see larger stratification, with the electric off than with electric on, as the thermosyphon is not heating the bottom, like the electrode is.

I'd like to know your boiler water temp as it reaches the sidearm. If it's arriving there at 170, then you have a problem. If it's arriving there at 128 or so, then the sidearm is not the problem, as heat exchange is adequate, and adding a taco won't help, IMHO. A meat thermometer taped on the input pipe, and then insulated, will give you the info, if you don't have a better device.

Also, since you are largely uninsulated, this set-up will reverse thermosyphon any time the water in the outside of the sidearm is below 120, or your peak temp. This means that if your arriving boiler water is 110 as the boiler cools off, or less when the boiler is totally off, then this tank will use the HX to cool itsself off.

Better insulation will help slow this. I'll be putting a check valve in mine to stop this reverse thermosyphon, but it needs to be so gentel acting, as to not stop the thermosyphon action that you want (no springs).

Again, that latest pic has confused me, but if that pipe on the left is just the T/P overflow pipe, then I',m ok with it.

A fully stratified (no electric) tank that's only 40 gal is kinda small, if you want more than 15 gals of 105+ water.

Al

 

[antknee2]

so would the pump taco 007 help
i've thought about doing the 007 and a 20 plate heat exchanger.
also looks like my boiler is to small took off the hot tub with better results.
would my dealer be responsible since he sized the unit

I would try a Taco 006 . Anthony

 

[docgogo]

the reason i said taco 007 i have two of them

 

[antknee2]

the reason i said taco 007 i have two of them

I would only use a bronze 007 with cast brass flanges when your dealing with a constant source of fresh water . If you use the 006 you don't need flanges an can solder it right in place , very low power consumption , maintenance free, it will keep the sediment from blocking the flow at the bottom of the tank . Also your t&p;relief valve has to moved back to the water heater so the temp probe is immersed inside of the water heater , now you have a bomb potential . Anthony

 

[Gene C]

I can't tell for sure from the pic but it looks like the top of the sidearm is higher than the water heater. If that is the case then that is the proplem. You are trying to make the hot water go down hill. The sidearm can't be higher and get much flow.
leaddog

Leaddog has a good point here. I have seen considerable performance changes by just making sure that the hot input water to the DHW tank is as close to the top of the tank or below the water level in the tank. As an example, I seen an installation that was 5" above the tank and the max water temp of the tank would only get up to 105 degrees. The owner then lowered the pipe to the top surface of the tank (only change made) and the temp went to 175 degrees before the mixing valve.