Hampton HI300 liner recommendations?

[hdavison3]

Thank you all for your thoughts on the Hampton HI300. I am sold on this product and now just have to determine who I get it from and who I have install it.
I currently have a 25 ft. External Brick Chimney. Two years ago, I had a new 10 x 10" Stainless Steel Liner w/ insulation installed to address cracks in the original clay liner. Judging from the information I have gathered, my best option is probably a 6" flexible stainless steel liner. I don't believe additional insulation should be required. Am I better to get the liner kit available through Hampton, or are there better products and values that will get the job done for less? One of the dealers I spoke with recommended a Magnaflex SS Chimney Liner Kit which is 316Ti (whatever that means). The installer that put my last liner in used a thicker gauge liner and recommends it for this installation. When I asked him why, he said that it would take a more rigorous cleaning if required.
How important is the thickness of the liner I choose? Also, other post indicate that Hampton's liner for this unit is 5 1/2"- not six.
Should I be considering 5 1/2' liners from other companies?
Finally, I read a previous post about block off plates being recommended. I asked an installer about this and I believe what he told me was that he normally installs a masonry collar around the flue connector and then wrap with heat-resistant insulation. Does this sound right?
Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[elkimmeg]

If purchasing one of these stoves then do not for get the optional flue collar adatper. I don't know why it is not included but it is needed to make the connection to the liner.
It attaches to the flue outlet using 3 L brackets and sheet metal screws I find that all installations I have inspected that gasket refractory cement is also used to seal that joint.

the Red RTV caulk temperature range it too low and will ment and burn off.

The problem with sealing the block off plate with any kind of flexible insulation is it is not rigid enought and will not stay in place. Chimneys sweat /condensate in warmer weather

the insulation actes to absorb it and will gain weight of the moisture and sagg and loose the ability to prevent intrusion of room air into the vacant chimney space < at that point it becomes useless. I supose one could pull out the insert a couple times a year to reposition it but moving 500 lbs and disconnection it is a PITA

Then there .are code issues

Chapter 12 Solid Fuel-Burning Appliances

12.4.5 Connection to Masonry Fireplaces.

12.4.5.1 A natural draft solid fuel-burning appliance such as a stove
or insert shall be permitted to use a masonry fireplace flue where the
following conditions are met:

(1) There is a connector that extends from the appliance to the
flue liner.

(2) The cross-sectional area of the flue is no smaller than the
cross-sectional area of the flue collar of the appliance, unless
otherwise specified by the appliance manufacturer.

(3)* The cross-sectional area of the flue of a chimney with no
walls exposed to the outside below the roofline is no more than three
times the cross-sectional area of the appliance flue collar.

(4) The cross-sectional area of the flue of a chimney with one or
more walls exposed to the outside below the roofline is no more than two
times the cross-sectional area of the appliance flue collar.

(5) If the appliance vents directly through the chimney wall
above the smoke chamber, there shall be a noncombustible seal below the
entry point of the connector.

(6) The installation shall be such that the chimney system can be
inspected and cleaned.

(7) Means shall be provided to prevent dilution of combustion
products in the chimney flue with air from the habitable space


006 direct cut and paste

RESIDENTIAL
CODE®
FOR ONE- AND TWO-FAMILY DWELLINGS

Part V — Mechanical
CHAPTER 18 Chimney& Vents
MECHANICAL

M1803.4 Connection to fireplace flue. Connection of appliances
to chimney flues serving fireplaces shall comply with
Sections M1803.4.1 through M1803.4.4.

M1803.4.1 Closure and accessibility. A rigid noncombustible
seal shall be provided below the point of connection to prevent
entry of room air into the flue. Means shall be provided
for access to the flue for inspection and cleaning


Your installer is suggesting a method of installation that is not code compliant

One final note for some reason Regency/ Hampton can be installed with 5.5" liners or 6" but a 5.5 to 6" adapter may be needed The 316 ti is a stronger blend of stainless steel

One could use a 304 blend which is cheaper and thiner and not as strong Either one would be code compliant in your situation because you already have addressed your situation using a prior liner system. In your case, liner insulation is not needed to comply with UL 1477 as that issue has been taken care of

 

[hdavison3]

Thanks, Elk.
I am not questioning your recommendations but are the codes you referring to universal- or code the state and local codes for Clinton County, New York be different then those for your area?

 

[elkimmeg]

Cut and past from your manual page 6


T

he Standard for Chimneys,
Fireplaces, Vents, and Solid Fuel Burning Ap-
pliance", N.F.P.A. 211, the National Building
Code

Your own manual calls in the need to check NFPA 211 and National Mechanical codes . My cut and past was from 2003 NFPA and the 2006 Residential International Mechanical codes.

In 1998 there were 3 Code Districts within USA and some individual states amending one of the various code bases.

In order to unify and have conformity, It was decide that the 3 bode should be combined into one International code group. Today all states have adopted the International code base though maybe not the 206 edition possibly 2003 Each state then can amend the codes to suit their environment and needs But they adopt the International BASE CODE FIRST All state codes will reference the International base In fact for the first time the 2006 Mechanical codes reference NFPA 211

I doubt very much NY has amended this particular code and so far no state has amended the NFPA 211 .. I suspect if you are getting advice that the person giving it does not know the code and has not picked up the book or does not own them Unfortunately this includes many local inspectors Almost none have NFPA 211 or the separate International Mechanical code book Btw I do have both here
Including all International codes including plumbing electrical the whole volume

 

[hdavison3]

Thank you for the clarification, Elk.
Two follow up questions.
1) Would you tell me in laymen's terms the best type of block off-plate and installation/set-up to specify- are they expensive to purchase or install?All of this Code language looks like it was written by an attorney... :-S
2) Is the benefit performance, efficiency, safety, or all three?

 

[begreen]

xcitable, they are made on the spot, custom fitted for the chimney. 24ga sheetmetal is fine. For lots of info search on block off plate in this forum. You will get lots of links and suggestions.

Here's one for starters:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/5232/
and a how-to article:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/making_a_block_off_plate/

 

[DougR]

Hi xcitableboi --

I did a little shopping around on the web, and decided that the Hampton 5.5" liner was fairly priced. Not the cheapest option, but not the most expensive either. I compared with 6" x 35' liners, because they're easier to find than the 5.5". Here is the data I came up with:

Hampton 5.5" x 35' -- $708
Chimneylinerinc.com, 6" x 35' -- $539
Fireplacesnow.com, 6" x 35' -- $561.84
Barbecues.com, 6" x 35' -- $960.95
Northernchimney.com, 6" x 35' -- $924.52
Hartshearth.com -- $749.89

Hope this helps. I decided to go with the Hampton because that's what my dealer/installer recommended, and like I said, I think the price is in the ballpark.

Cheers,
Doug

 

[hdavison3]

Thanks, DougR.
Our chimney requires a 25' liner so I guess I will get out of it a little cheaper than you. A Hampton 5 1/2" x 25' liner appears to run about $550. The dealerthat I have been talking with recommended a Magnaflex 6" x 25' liner and told me that it would work just as well. This stainless steel flexible liner has a 25 year guarantee. If purchased with the insert she would sell to me for $350. (total package price of $3,000 for insert w/ blower, surrounds, brown porcelain enamel finish and liner) From what I've researched this seems like a fair package price.
I am not sure if it really matters whether I go with a six inch or five and one -half inch liner- I will have to research this site a little more. There is alway a concern in the back of my mind about finger-pointing if there is a problem down the road- if there was a problem down the road is there any potential that Hampton would tell the dealer and me-' Sorry, you should have used our 5 1/2" liner instead of the 6 inch generic liner...' So the question is whether it is worth paying $200 extra just for that insurance?
I still need to find an installer and will ask him to provide an estimate based on Elks recommendations of having a block-off plate installed.
I'm getting there...
Thanks to all for your help.
Regards,
xcitableboi

 

[elkimmeg]

XC tthe difference to worry about is not the size 5.5 to 6", but the liner quality. There is a difference in liners stand alone 0no insulation I would opt
for a better grade SS. 304 grade is you basic economy line 316 is a better grade 316ti still better. There is even a 320, except for coal burner usage, probably not worth the cost.

Grage and thickness are your comparison point ,05 economy ,06 better and ,07 or higher is the best thickness That should be your comparison points. 25 year warranty
sounds good but, I would like to know what is going in there If economy grade, does the 25 year warranty require it to be insulated,, to obtain that 25 year length?


Let me equate this to my remodeling business. If someone want Anderson Windows I usually will not try to takl them out of them. If they want builder grade I usually advise thy consider Anderson's or atleast opting for a mid line quality window. There is a home built in 1988 with builders special windows. Because the frames have rotted I can not do replacement sash I have to remove the entire window and replace them with Andersons thats 27 windows. Had they been Andersons or Pella in the first place, they would not need replacement. In the long run it cost more money to have cheap windows. Making matters worse all interior trim is not going to be reused and on the exterion there will be quite a bit of siding patching in

Really a costly bad initial choice

 

[DougR]

Hey XC,

That sounds like a really good deal on the liner, and really the whole package, from your dealer. If it's a high-quality 316 stainless, I'd go that route.

Good luck tracking down a good installer.


Cheers,
DougR

 

[BrotherBart]

My basement office Jotul is burning into a 30' 5.5 inch un-insulated 316ti liner with two 90 degree turns through an exterior masonry chimney. The draft is so hellacious that I have to use a pipe damper on the stove pipe to keep from sucking small splits up the pipe.

I am in Virginia sitting about a beer case above sea level.

I am actually thinking about using 5.5 to replace the 6" smooth wall piece of crap in the flue for the first floor.

 

[hdavison3]

Thanks, Elk, DougR, and Brother Bart.
I asked the dealer for the specs on the Magnaflex SS Flexible Chimney Liner Kit she was recommending prior to putting up this post.
She copied the first paragraph of the Warranty which said it was 316 Ti and that all fittings were made of 24 gauge stainless steel; I did think it was somewhat odd that she only copied the first part of the warranty and will get the complete specs and warranty disclaimers prior to making a decision.
I understand your window analogy, Elk. When we had our house built fifteen years ago, the builder installed Anderson Windows. In the last few years, he has been building homes with 'economy' replacement type windows in order to cut costs. The quality of a chimney liner is not as apparent as that of windows for most of us.
I appreciate everyone's input and will keep you posted.
Regards.
xcitableboi

 

[hdavison3]

Elk,
I just visited Magnaflex website and their flex liners are .005" (economy grade) - I will get complete details of warranty.
As we discussed earlier, my chimney does have an existing 10" x 10" insulated liner and you indicated that this would probably preclude the need for any additional insulation- I wonder if this would satisfy any insulation requirements from the manufacturer...
The second question is whether you know of an economy grade liner ever failing? I asked one potential installer this question after he told me that he preferred to work with the thicker liners. He stated that a thicker liner could take a more rigorous cleaning. If the chimney liner is to be cleaned with a poly brush, I have to believe it would be pretty difficult to damage a stainless steel liner when cleaning. What do you think?

 

[elkimmeg]

In sulation does two things holds heat in the liner which promotes draft and adds protection for clearance to combustiables.
There are 3 code issues concerning a liner requirement
#1 cross-sectional code if the existing liner area is too large than the area must be reduced to reflect the flue colar area of the stove

#2 an existing liner may be used if the cross-sectionarea requirements are met. However the existing liner must meet NPFA 211
requirements or conditions. ( cracked missing mortar and poorly constructed liners or questionable liners will require that the new liner
meet UL 1477 aproval which requires insulation) { code aslo required a condition report. and through cleaning. In chimneys less than 10 years
old, that have not had a chimney fire, I may wave report or cleaning requirement, if they have seen little use}

#3 Some jusisdictions may require UL 1477 listing. The only way to obtain UL 1477 ios to insulate and install the liner per manufacture's specs

In your case your prior liner has addressed NFPA 211 concerns you do not need to insulate another liner to achieve UL 1477. The only reason you
might consider insulation is to promote better drafting conditions

Like my prior post there are two areras of quality. The material grade and thickness. Yours meets material quality. My next question would be how much additional cost is involved with
thicker .06 liner? At that point you can make a value judgement. Personally I have not cleaned a liner for 25 years, to answer that part of your question.
Hopefully others can post their experiences A poly brush will be gentler on your liner no doubt about that.

I might add your dealer installler pricing is fair and most of your reported advice from him is on the money. It seems like a very fair deal for you.

If you decide that you are getting a fair deal and stick with the current liner, I think it is a good deal

You know some of liner conditioning is the responsibility of the owner opperator of the stove. Burning junk or not seasoned wood will have harmefull effects on it.

If you plan on doing your own cleanings and clean it before the heating season and at mid point ,you are going get better longevity out of the liner

 

[jjbaer]

Elk,
I just visited ss="spellchecked_word">Magnaflex website and their flex liners are .005" (economy grade) - I will get complete details of warranty.
As we discussed earlier, my chimney does have an existing 10" x 10" insulated liner and you indicated that this would probably preclude the need for any additional insulation- I wonder if this would satisfy any insulation requirements from the manufacturer...
The second question is whether you know of an economy grade liner ever failing? I asked one potential installer this question after he told me that he preferred to work with the thicker liners. He stated that a thicker liner could take a more rigorous cleaning. If the chimney liner is to be cleaned with a poly brush, I have to believe it would be pretty difficult to damage a stainless steel liner when cleaning. What do you think?

One of the vendors Doug listed is the cheapest anywhere..........I bought mine at the same site 5 months ago:

www.chimneylinerinc.com/

click on the first bullet in the upper left and then use the pull-down tab to find your liner kit....


You can get a 5.5" x 25 ft long stainless steel RockFlex 0.006" thick liner KIT (liner, adapter, cap) for $387. Note the word "kit"...this price just doesn't get you the liner it also gets you the "kit" which has connectors and a chimney cap. Also note that they give you the choice of getting a 0.005" or the 0.006" thick liner for the same price....I opted for the 0.006" in my kit. The liner is 316Ti SS, made in America and has a 2100 deg F rating against fires. These are the lowest prices anywhere on the web......I looked everywhere before I bought mine. You can find cheaper liners but you will only get the 316 or 304 ss (which aren't as good). The better liner is the one I bought which is 316Ti (the Ti stands for Titanium impregnated which withstands high temp corrosion better than the cheaper 316 or 304 SS liners). Also, they sell insulation dirt cheap! 25 ft of full 1/2" thick insulation (don't get the 1/4" stuff) with spray adhesive and wire mesh wrap is $249 in kit form.....

So...if your person says $350 make sure it's 0.006" or better and that it's 316Ti. If that's the case, it's not a bad price because then they order it and bring it and you avoid some hassle's and even if you have to pay for a connector and cap, it's still in the ball park.........

comment on Elks comment on the stove connector.....you need one to connect the liner to the stove........the guy at the link where I bought my liner kit allowed me to get a stove connector instead of the elbow that came with the kit...at the same kit price.......normally the stove connector costs $20-$40. They're very knowledgeable and worked with me to substitute components. I ended up getting 20' of 6" 316Ti in a kit and I got the 25' of 1/2" thick insulation in kit form and I installed it myself........by ordering the liner and insulation myself at the above link and installing it myself I saved a grand.......... HOWEVER...there is something to be said for not having to do it yourself because doing it yourself is a PITA.... but you can save $....

 

[hdavison3]

Hi folks,

After doing alot of research and weighing everyone's advice, here is what I have opted to do.

I have ordered the Hampton Insert from a local dealer and have decided to have a local certified chimney sweep install a Ventinox Hi-flex Liner. The cost of the installing the fireplace Insert and liner is $400. The cost of the Ventinox Liner ( 6" X 25') is $950. I have elected not to have this liner insulated- as I explained earlier, the original 10" x 10" liner I had installed a couple of years ago is already insulated.
I did have the option of ordering my own liner and having him install it for $400. The reasons I elected to pay a premium to have him install the Ventinox are as follows.
1) In addition to the lifetime warranty on the liner he provided a lifetime warranty on the installation. This is a reputable business that has been around for awhile. Of course this means that I will have to have him inspect and clean the chimney annually for $90. In the past I have climbed on the roof of my two-story house and cleaned the chimney myself. I didn't mind going up the latter- it was coming down that always made me nervous. I will gladly pay $90 per year as insurance to avoid becoming a quadraplegiac.
2) The Ventinox Hi-flex Liner is Type 321 SS titanium impregnated which is about the highest quality SS available. Furthermore it uses a continous weld instead of being crimped which would lead me to believe it would be less susceptable
to leaks and probably stronger. The installer had originally proposed a Ventinox VFT Liner ( 316Ti ) which is marketed by Ventinox as being ideal for oil and gas systems but also suitable for wood-burning. His logic was that if I ever decided to convert to gas, I could use the same liner. I have no plans of doing this and the 321 SS was only $75 more than the 316Ti so I decided to go for the Hi-flex.
3) I know I could do this for considerably less if I tackled this myself or found a "jack of all trades" that was willing to do it and ordered a liner on-line. I am very comfortable ordering some commodities on the internet. Chimney Liners is not one of them because there are a lot of opinions about what is technology is the best and it would require a third party installation. I will buy generic brands of breakfast cereal, mouthwash, and lawn fertilizer if the ingredients are the same as those for name brands, but there are too many variable to weigh regarding a chimney liner so I will stick with a reputable name brand. Secondly, I would always wonder if installation done by other than a professional would compromise safety. Finally, if I purchase the liner, from the same guy who is installing it and servicing for me, there is little room for finger-pointing if something goes wrong.

All this being said, I have not yet signed on the dotted line for the installation. If any one has any final words of wisdom before I proceed with this, please let me know.

Thanks again for all of your help; I will let you know how it turns out.

REGARDS,
XCB

 

[elkimmeg]

There is a saying about spending money It is better to spend a little more and get quality then less and get junk

I think you made a wise decision Regency is a top quality manufacturer 321 ti the best liner. And I agree with the insulation decision

Many here $90 for the anual cleaning up tall ladders not confortable doing, another wise decision.

I do hope you remain an active member to help others with your stove decision and report you trials with your stove find its strenghts and weaknesses

for other may make informed decisions. I say good luck but luck should not be part of a wise decision

 

[hdavison3]

Thanks, Elk
I appreciate your advice and the positive reinforcement. I will let you all know how this works out.
XCB

 

[DougR]

Hey xcitableboi,

Thanks for posting your plans -- it'd be hard to criticize any aspect. You're not paying absolute bottom dollar, but you know how much more you are paying, and what you are paying for: top-quality all the way, and ONE guy on the hook to make it work. Very nice! Please let us know how the install goes, and how you like the stove!


Cheers,
Doug

 

[begreen]

Sounds like a great plan. Good choices xcitable. Take lots of pictures, especially when that new stove is cooking!

 

[hdavison3]

Thanks guys. I hope to have the install done within the next couple of weeks and will let you know how it all turns out.
Regards,
XCB