Hard cider

[George G]

The small green bottle. When I made that, I just filled the carboy with cider and let it do it's thing. Bottled it, stuck in on the shelf. It's been setting there about 1.5 years now. I think it's about 8% by volume. A little carbonated, real good. The bottle on the left. I added one pound of sugar per gallon of cider + one packet of bread yeast. It came out at about 15% by volume. Most liked it, a couple said they could tast the yeast. Watch it, it sneaks up on ya. The bottle on the right. I used apple concentrate, one pound of sugar per gallon, and wine yeast. Just had a small tast of fresh, just before bottling, tast's good. About 17% by volume. The one in the carboy is the same, only with champagne yeast.

 

[wolfram]

I love that stuff...Especially as an after drink, drink.

Ever try brown sugar in the process? Any idea if that would impart a different taste?

Good work and welcome!

 

[peakbagger]

With the cold weather, you should go the next step and make applejack whihc is freeze distilled hard cider. Basically put a container out on a real cold night and let the cold freeze a portion of the water out of the cider. There used to be creative ways of extracting the cider from the center of container, bu I expect a long drill into the center will work. I have heard that you can get it up to the 40% range but havent done it.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

The last I had was at my Grandfather's house. He always kept the cider on the porch and this was left there a little long.

Matt

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Nice! I have some that's about 10% and several years old. I like serving it 50:50 with fresh cider.

 

[pyper]

With the cold weather, you should go the next step and make applejack whihc is freeze distilled hard cider. Basically put a container out on a real cold night and let the cold freeze a portion of the water out of the cider. There used to be creative ways of extracting the cider from the center of container, bu I expect a long drill into the center will work. I have heard that you can get it up to the 40% range but havent done it.

It's called "fractional distillation." Just like any other kind of distillation, it's against the law, so be careful who you let know if you do it.

I make cider. I made a cider press this fall, and I'm going to make a better fruit crusher this summer.

I use Montrachet yeast. I don't add any sugar for cider that will be consumed fresh. If it's going to store for a long time then 10% is a minimum, and I'll boost the gravity with honey usually, though sugar on occasion.

I'm looking forward to trying hard peach cider. Our two peach trees produce a lot of fruit if I keep up with the spraying schedule.

 

[Gooserider]

I make Cyser - which is an apple cider based mead - about 12lb (1 gallon) of honey, 3-4 gallons of cider (Make sure you don't get the stuff that's been contaminated with sorbates...) and water to make about 6 gallons.

After the initial fermentation is done, I rack into a carboy, and add a bunch of what I call the "pie spices" - Cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves and maybe a bit of ginger. bulk age in a carboy for several months, racking a few times, and adding more honey as needed to keep the SG around 1.005 until fermentation is complete and it's stable. Then bottle and age a while longer - really nice.

A few years back, I did a small batch of "Perry" which is a pear cider based mead, just tried my first bottle of it a few days ago, definitely worth a repeat if I get a good honey harvest this year (I buy the cider, but the honey is from my own hives...)

I used to use champagne yeasts, but I found that while they are very reliable, they tend to make a brew that is stronger than I like, as they don't attenuate until around 18-19% Now I use Lalvin D-47, which I find is just as reliable, but attenuates around 14-16% and leaves a bit of a "fruity" after tone, rather than the harshness of a champagne yeast.

In terms of the jacking / distilling question - there has been a fair amount of discussion about this topic on some of the mead making lists, and the regs aren't completely clear on what the rules are for "personal consumption" scale production. Natural fermentation is clearly allowed, but there were conflicting rulings and regulations being cited on what is allowable for "concentration" IANAL, but my take was that as long as you are only doing small quantities, are reasonably discreet, and don't try to sell any, you are unlikely to run into any issues...

Gooserider

 

[firefighterjake]

I love hard cider . . . don't really like drinking any other alcoholic drink . . . just never developed the taste . . . which is a real handicap since I don't drink beer, wine or coffee . . . the three drinks folks tend to offer you when you're visiting them.

Love the Woodchuck cider from Vermont.

I am curious . . . would anyone be willing to list out a step-by-step instructional thread on how to make one's own hard cider along with a requirements list? My brother tried to make some hard cider and served it up last summer . . . egads . . . I have no idea of what he did wrong, but it was horrible . . . took one swig and nearly puked . . . looked like mud and tasted like diluted turpentine.

 

[pyper]

In terms of the jacking / distilling question - there has been a fair amount of discussion about this topic on some of the mead making lists, and the regs aren't completely clear on what the rules are for "personal consumption" scale production. Natural fermentation is clearly allowed, but there were conflicting rulings and regulations being cited on what is allowable for "concentration" IANAL, but my take was that as long as you are only doing small quantities, are reasonably discreet, and don't try to sell any, you are unlikely to run into any issues...

Gooserider

I think the law is pretty clear -- you cannot distill without an ATF permit. Not in any quantity. Not for any use.

TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 51 > Subchapter J > PART I > § 5601

(8) Unlawful production of distilled spirits

not being a distiller authorized by law to produce distilled spirits, produces distilled spirits by distillation or any other process from any mash, wort, wash, or other material; or

Emphasis added.

Sure, if you don't get caught you won't get in trouble -- so if a person were to try the freezing thing for their own experimentation, s/he shoudln't go spreading the word around -- the penalty is up to $10k plus 5 years in prison.

 

[woodmeister]

I've made it using raisins and brown sugar a friend uses apricots and pears we even had an ol'timer that added raw meat and that was some of the best I ever had. Nothing like being ciderized on a sunday afternoon.

 

[Cutter]

Here are some pics of my latest batches.

Mulled Elderberry

Peach using brown surgar

Blackberry

Simple Elderberry

I have also done several types of Apple, Bartlett Pear and Asian Pear. Lots of fun. Ihave made over 60 gallons of wines in the last year but we just don't drink very much. Most of it goes out as gifts

 

[Gooserider]

In terms of the jacking / distilling question - there has been a fair amount of discussion about this topic on some of the mead making lists, and the regs aren't completely clear on what the rules are for "personal consumption" scale production. Natural fermentation is clearly allowed, but there were conflicting rulings and regulations being cited on what is allowable for "concentration" IANAL, but my take was that as long as you are only doing small quantities, are reasonably discreet, and don't try to sell any, you are unlikely to run into any issues...

Gooserider

I think the law is pretty clear -- you cannot distill without an ATF permit. Not in any quantity. Not for any use.

TITLE 26 > Subtitle E > CHAPTER 51 > Subchapter J > PART I > § 5601

(8) Unlawful production of distilled spirits

not being a distiller authorized by law to produce distilled spirits, produces distilled spirits by distillation or any other process from any mash, wort, wash, or other material; or

Emphasis added.

Sure, if you don't get caught you won't get in trouble -- so if a person were to try the freezing thing for their own experimentation, s/he shoudln't go spreading the word around -- the penalty is up to $10k plus 5 years in prison.

As I said earlier - IANAL, but I just did some checking in my Mead Lovers Digest back issues for the discussion I mentioned - some highlights...

From Mead Lover's Digest #1424, 23 May 2009

This subject was definitively covered by Dennis Davison in his Zymurgy
article on eisbock. Dennis' eisbock took a first (I believe) in the
AHA NHC and he wrote an article about the making of that beer. Dennis
went directly to the source, the BATF, and asked if freezing to
increase alcohol content by removing ice was illegal. The BATF said
that distillation (the *removal of alcohol* from a wine/beer/mead/
mash/etc.) without a license was illegal, but that concentration of
alcohol in a wine/beer/mead/mash/etc. was not illegal. As I remember
it (I'll check it tonight at home) the article gave legal citations
and the name of the person at BATF who would confirm the above to
the skeptical.

Considering that Dennis gave step-by-step instructions on how he did
it in a nationally distributed magazine, I'd suspect that we can make
and talk about making mead brandy, applejack, and other concentrated
victuals without going (Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink).

In a reply from #1426 6 June 2009

Good memory to pull that out for that far back Chuck, but I couldn't find
Dennis' article - if you find that link, please forward it.

I did, however find some definitive info on the issue. I recently started
brewing beer (partly because I like beer too, partly because I'm dying to try
a braggot), and in my online search for useful info, I found James Spencers
"Basic Brewing Radio" podcast. (http://www.basicbrewing.com) In his 1-15-09
episode, he says that it is illegal, since it's a form of distillation.

In his next episode (1-22-09) James read an email where a listener from Maine
challenged him on this, saying that it is not distillation, but
concentration, and as such is not illegal. Since James couldn't stand not
to know for sure, he addressed it by calling the ATF. They sent him to the
TTB, where he got in touch with someone by the name of Art Resnick.

Mr. Resnick stated that their regulations are strictly for purposes of tax
classification, and do NOT apply to home brewers, and that the making of
eisbock is legal. He also provided the USC citation: 26 USC 5053E.

So, in the words of James: "Ice away. Let us know how it goes."

Continuing, in #1427, 13 June 2009

While it is still possible that fractional crystalization may be
legal, that particular reference does not say so. I looked that up at
http://vlex.com/vid/sec-exemptions-19210894 and all that it refers to is
that beer can be made for personal and family use (not for sale) to the
extent of 100 gallons per year for a single adult, or 200 gallons per
year for a household of more than one adult. The relevant section is:

- ---------------------
(e) Beer for personal or family use Subject to regulation prescribed by
the Secretary, any adult may, without payment of tax, produce beer for
personal or family use and not for sale. The aggregate amount of beer
exempt from tax under this subsection with respect to any household
shall not exceed - (1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are 2 or
more adults in such household, or (2) 100 gallons per calendar year if
there is only 1 adult in such household.

For purposes of this subsection, the term ''adult'' means an individual
who has attained 18 years of age, or the minimum age (if any)
established by law applicable in the locality in which the household is
situated at which beer may be sold to individuals, whichever is greater.
- --------------------

There is nothing in that citation about distillation, or concentration,
so it is not a definitive answer to the question at hand. I don't think
that anyone is arguing that we can't make beer (or wine, or mead) for
personal consumption within the quantity limits stated. I would love to
see a definitive answer, in print, showing that we can use fractional
crystalization to concentrate the alcohol in our mead, but this is not
it and I have not seen it elsewhere, either. Since I, too, contacted
the BATF and got the opposing answer I will stand behind my comments
until I see otherwise, in print. My conversation, however, was 20+
years ago and I do not recall the name of the person that I talked to.
It is also possible that the interpretation of the regulations has
changed since then, but I have seen no definitive proof of that.

Running out of space, but the last message in the exchange is also interesting, will continue in the next...
Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

And finally, from #1428, 18 June 2009

You're absolutely correct, Marc, there is nothing about concentration. I
believe that's the point. Remember that these regulations aren't in place to
grant us rights, they're there to restrict them (hopefully only to the
extents necessary to ensure a safer society). The fact that there is nothing
about it in that citation is enough. Concentration is legal by the simple
fact that there are no regulations prohibiting it.

In fact, most people think this regulation makes it legal to home brew beer in
the US. That's not true. This regulation makes it illegal to brew more
than the specified 100 or 200 gallon limits without paying taxes.

When you concentrate something, you don't change its label. Apple juice
concentrate is still apple juice. When you concentrate beer or wine, it's
still beer or wine. When you distill beer or wine, you're winding up with a
purified quantity of spirits. Not beer or wine.

While I understand your desire for a definitive statement in legal regulations
that allows you to make ice beer, applejack, honeyjack, or whatever, I think
you'll never see that, beyond the name of someone at the TTB that did verify
its legality. Such a thing would actually be a very bad legal precedent,
implying that a citizen does not have any rights but those granted by the law.

As I understand it, this is no longer under the auspices of the ATF as of
9/11. This falls under the TTB as far as I know, so unless the person you
spoke to did give you an explicit citation (maybe a state law?) then I'd say
you got questionable information.

So, how about this:
http://www.ttb.gov/forms_tutorials/glossary/letter_c.html#C_18
This is from a TTB glossary page, and it does explicitly state that beer
concentration and reconstitution are "considered authorized practices", though
it isn't that explicit (either way) with respect to wine. It also doesn't
clarify whether this applies to home brewing or not. It's also possible this
is referring to malt extract, it's hard to be sure.

You can also see how the gov't defines "spirits or distilled spirits" by going
to http://www.ttb.gov/forms_tutorials/glossary_nf.shtml.
It's pretty obvious that sticking your 14% mead in a deep freeze and removing
1/3 of its volume is not going to meet this criteria.

So, you're obviously not under any obligation to throw your mead into a deep
freeze, but I think it's also obvious that you're not explicitly forbidden
either.

If you are interested in the list in general, this is the technical info from the list - if you have interest in making mead, they are one of the definitive sources...

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Gooserider

 

[woody49705]

i'm trying making hard cider for the first time this year. bought a kit from local cider mill with fresh cider and i'm due to rack it for the second time this week. The instructions that i used did call for a pound of brown sugar per gallon of cider. I can't wait till its done. Hopefully it turns out good so i can increase production for next year. I would imagine it should be perfect aroud thanksgiving.

 

[Gooserider]

i'm trying making hard cider for the first time this year. bought a kit from local cider mill with fresh cider and i'm due to rack it for the second time this week. The instructions that i used did call for a pound of brown sugar per gallon of cider. I can't wait till its done. Hopefully it turns out good so i can increase production for next year. I would imagine it should be perfect aroud thanksgiving.

One of my most popular brews is a Cyser - or apple cider based mead - I use a gallon of honey, 3 gallons of cider (make sure to get stuff that does NOT have any sorbates added to it!) and water to bring it up to about 5-6 gallons. After an initial racking, I add a bunch of the traditional "apple pie" spices - cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, etc. to give it some extra flavor, then rack it several times over the next few months, feeding as needed to keep the SG around 1.005 (semi-sweet) and bottle it when it becomes stable...

Gooserider

 

[Flatbedford]

What is "racking"?

 

[Gooserider]

What is "racking"?

Racking is the process of transferring a batch of brew from one container to another. As a must (the stuff that is fermenting) for any sort of brew ferments, you end up with a bunch of debris at the bottom of the fermentation vessel - dead yeast, unfermentable proteins, plant parts (if using fruits or grains) and so forth - nothing harmful but still stuff that you don't want to drink, and stuff that can give you "off" flavors if the brew sits on it to long.

Racking consists of carefully siphoning all the clear fermented product off the layer of debris at the bottom of the present vessel (Most home brewers start with a plastic bucket, and end up in glass carboys (aka water cooler jugs)) into a new one, leaving as much of the crud behind as possible... There is always the balancing act of just how much to siphon off - you don't want to leave to much "good stuff" behind, but you also don't want to get greedy and suck up the debris, or you've defeated the point of the exercise...

When racking, you would typically check for flavor, specific gravity, clarity, and so forth, and if you need to add anything, mix it in at that point. Typically you rack every month or two, until you no longer have any signs of fermentation, the brew is clear, and it tastes good, at which point you can either bottle, or continue to "bulk age" in a carboy to let the flavor develop more...

Essentially this means that you have to either have one more carboy than you have batches brewing, or bottle a batch at each racking to get an empty carboy...

Gooserider

 

[Highbeam]

I'm racking my batch of beer tonight! I have this dip tube that prevent me from sucking the debris off the bottom. I'm going from a plastic bucket into a carboy for the last stage. Not too sure if the racking process will liven up the fermentation process but the bubbling has slowed way way down.

 

[Gooserider]

I'm racking my batch of beer tonight! I have this dip tube that prevent me from sucking the debris off the bottom. I'm going from a plastic bucket into a carboy for the last stage. Not too sure if the racking process will liven up the fermentation process but the bubbling has slowed way way down.

The racking cane probably has a little plastic cone on it, and yes that does help some at keeping the crud out, but if you get to close to the gruck layer, you will still suck it up.... Best technique I've found is to keep the tip around the middle of the amount in the bucket, slowly easing it down as you transfer the contents. When you get near the bottom, GENTLY tilt the bucket to try and concentrate the good stuff on one side w/o moving the crud layer... Watch what you are picking up, and as soon as you see the first threads of the gruck layer getting picked up and sucked into the cane, pull it up to break the siphon....

I often pour the gruck layer into a second smaller container and let it settle again, and get a fair bit off... Or do my "mixed blend" where I pour a bunch of these tag ends into a carboy, and draw off the accumulated good stuff, which actually makes a pretty decent brew...

As to the fermentation - You will get a little mixing, which may liven the yeasts up a bit, but not a lot... What you will see though is often a lot of bubbling as you rack, I've even seen enough bubbles build up to stop the siphon flow - this is because of the CO2 dissolved in the water, which you are pulling out of solution due to the agitation of racking, and the changes in pressure as the brew gets "vacuumed" up the racking cane....

With beer, what you are essentially doing is fermenting to dryness, or getting the yeast to consume ALL the available fermentables, and then you will add back in a very small amount of fermentables just before you bottle, with the idea being to give the yeast one last feast, so that they will produce just enough CO2 to naturally pressurize the bottle. Be VERY careful on this step and follow the directions carefully, as giving them to much sugar can cause "Bottle Bombs"...

Gooserider

 

[onion]

Gee thanks guys....now you've got me thinking about restarting my homebrew operation.

I had a buddy who made mead a few times. Good stuff.

I'd recommend that anyone who enjoys good beer but doesn't enjoy the prices they charge for it look into doing their own homebrewing. You can get kits that make it pretty simple and once you get past the startup costs for equipment (~$100) the ingredients are pretty cheap.

 

[pyper]

I'd recommend that anyone who enjoys good beer but doesn't enjoy the prices they charge for it look into doing their own homebrewing. You can get kits that make it pretty simple and once you get past the startup costs for equipment (~$100) the ingredients are pretty cheap.

But be forewarned -- most people who start making their own beer to save money end up spending a small fortune on equipment.

If I was still brewing I'd probably "need" one of these $800 fermenters:
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/7_GALLON_FERMENATOR_WITH_TRI-C_P2017C135.cfm

But it's great fun, and you can make beers you can't buy.

 

[ramonbow]

This may be a technical question but does anyone know the difference between apple cider and apple wine? I have made a few batches of what i call apple wine and they always turn out good. It does get a little strong but a splash of apple juice or sprite will make it a refreshing drink to almost anyone.

The batches that i do not care to drink were elderberry, red grape, and edelweiss grape. Unfortunately they were all large batches with a lot of work collecting fruit.

I am looking forward to a good rhubarb harvest this summer to restock the shelves with rhubarb wine.

The recipe given to me my my grandfather is:
5 gallons apple juice (if you use concentrate or bottled make sure you read the ingredients to make sure there are no preservatives)

8lbs sugar - this will make a STRONG wine approaching 20% - use less sugar for less alcohol but keep it 10% or above for storage.

1 packet wine yeast

let it bubble for a month or so until it quits. sometimes it tastes great right away - other times it needs to sit for 6 months or so.

 

[pyper]

I think "purists" might say that "real cider" only has the juice of fresh pressed apples.

Personally, I call it cider when I add sugar (or honey). I've probably never added more than 5# of sugar for a 5 gallon batch.

My elderberry wine improved greatly with age. After a year in the bottle it wasn't too bad. I'm going to make it again this year for sure.

 

[Gooserider]

This may be a technical question but does anyone know the difference between apple cider and apple wine? I have made a few batches of what i call apple wine and they always turn out good. It does get a little strong but a splash of apple juice or sprite will make it a refreshing drink to almost anyone.

The batches that i do not care to drink were elderberry, red grape, and edelweiss grape. Unfortunately they were all large batches with a lot of work collecting fruit.

I am looking forward to a good rhubarb harvest this summer to restock the shelves with rhubarb wine.

The recipe given to me my my grandfather is:
5 gallons apple juice (if you use concentrate or bottled make sure you read the ingredients to make sure there are no preservatives)

8lbs sugar - this will make a STRONG wine approaching 20% - use less sugar for less alcohol but keep it 10% or above for storage.

1 packet wine yeast

let it bubble for a month or so until it quits. sometimes it tastes great right away - other times it needs to sit for 6 months or so.

Well as I understand it, "Cider" is juice and other fruit proteins squeezed out of crushed apples - Apple juice is essentially cider that has been cooked and had most everything filtered out of it... Apple "Wine" would be a cider that was fermented to "wine levels" of alchohol content, 12-14% or higher, which will usually require some added fermentables, as the base sugar content isn't that high, but the primary fermentable ingredient should be the cider...

If one ferments straight cider, and doesn't add anything to it, you get hard cider, which is more on the order of strong beer levels - say 5-8%

If the PRIMARY fermentable is honey, as opposed to the apple cider, then you would get a fruit mead, or "melomel", specifically a "Cyser" if made from apple cider - Pear cider will make "Perry" - which is very nice stuff. most other fruits fall under the general melomel term, with the exception of mead made with grapes, known as "pyment" or with hot peppers known as a Capsicumel...

There is also some level of variation in the usage of the terms, so often you need to get clarification... Another thing that can be a factor in the terminology in the US can be the rules and regs of the BBQ specialists down at BATFE...

As an additional comment on strength - there are essentially two factors that will determine the strength of a given brew - the amount of fermentable sugars present and the "attenuation curve" or alcohol tolerance of the particular yeast strain used... The yeast will eat the sugars and pee booze, until they have either consumed all the available sugars (producing a "dry" brew) or until the level of alcohol has exceeded their tolerance level, in which case you will have some residual sweetness from the left over sugars. (You can also get sweetness by killing off the yeasts and / or adding preservatives, followed by "back sweetening" or adding additional sweetener to taste...) Bread yeasts don't have published curves, but generally do about the same as ale or beer yeasts - in the 4-8% range. Wine yeasts generally ferment to the 12-16% range, depending on the variety. Champagne yeasts tend to be very enthusiastic, and will hit the 18-20% range, which IMHO is a bit on the strong side. The traditional limit was 20% for yeasts, or a bit higher for Japanese Sake, which uses a non-yeast organism, I forget off hand if it's a fungus or a bacteria) Nowadays there are supposedly some "super yeasts" that can get up to 25% but I've never messed with them.

I used to use champagne yeasts, as they are quite robust and reliable fermentation starters, but the resulting brews were really stronger than most people liked... These days my "go-to" yeast is Lalvin D-47, which is normally considered a Chardonnay yeast, but which works very nicely in meads. I find it's just as reliable and robust at starting a fermentation as the champagne yeasts, but with a 12-14% attenuation, the results are less overpowering...

Gooserider

 

[pyper]

I think the difference between cider and juice is that cider is pressed, where juice is expelled.

I always use wine yeast (montrachet) for any kind of wine or cider. I get it in dry packages and store it in the fridge until I need it. It keeps for at least a couple years. When I used to make beer I bought liquid yeasts, and probably used 1056 more than anything else. Although I did make a lager once. It was too difficult though -- the only way I had to lower the temperature (which has to be done in stages) was through lowering the temperature of my apartment until I got it cool enough to put it in the fridge, which was then too warm to store food.

Man, it's amazing what some people will do for a brew!

My favorite ever beer was a barleywine called Santa's Little Helper (named prior to Bart Simpson's dog). I don't remember all the details, but I finished it with champagne yeast and a bottle of vanilla extract in 1 gallon of beer. There was a pint of strong coffee and a block of baker's chocolate. So that's 22% alcohol (enough to have "legs" when swirled in a snifter), coffee and chocolate -- in time for a home-brewer's Christmas party. Santa's Little Helper.