I talked with a Harman dealer today about a p68 corner install price of stove and vent thimble with oak. He mentioned I needed a pad meeting r19 or would that be r.19 any way they sell them. I said I was thinking of making one from plywood and tile. He said it would not meet r19. I see nothing in the Harman literature of an r19 value. this pad would have to side under hot water baseboard heating element in about a foot and a half section. so I cant go over 1 3/8 to 11/2 thick nor do I want to spend over 500 bucks for a 48 inch corner hearth pad. any way around this without screwing cement board to the hard wood flooring.. I figure my square footage is around 2400 sf with an open floor plan cape. set in a dining room corner it would blow both toward the kitchen, living room and stairwell to upstairs. He said he thought a p43 would heat it and probably on max a lot but use less pellets. So now im very confused on what I need for btu. I have a wood fireplace insert for back up and help but am 63 and tired of cutting and spitting stacking and lugging wood every few hours. What would your selection ideas be smaller one maxed a lot or bigger unit not maxed. also on the hearth heat rises and the pellet fire is not near the base like a wood stove. you would think all would need is ember protection with the tiles. I don't imagine you lay durlok cement board and tile it with out it fastened down to the floor. does it r19 or are they trying to push their prefab hearth pads. when asking about Englanders he said about half Harman sales is replacing cheap pellet stoves who's motors augers fail. I like the construction , ash draw, any pellet, and less cleaning aspect of the Harman. they also appear pretty well built. I live in eastern Maine we get some pretty cold days thru out the winter. Anyone want to chime in on btu suggestions and hearth pad. I don't want to raise the hearth above the baseboard. little more involved to mobe the baseboard because it has an anti freeze blend. buring wood I didn't want the pipes to freeze.
harman p68 information possible newbie
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Hey Calvin, Just saw this but I have to leave to meet my wife up in town for dinner so I have to leave now. I will tell your to get the P68 without a doubt. Yes, it's more $$ but it is what you need to do your house. The P43 will struggle to keep up in the cold, cold especially in Maine. The 43 could possibly do it but I am right at your SQ FT and a two story also.
I also have ideas on your hearth board. I am a contractor and I will get back to you later this evening but I have to run.
I also have ideas on your hearth board. I am a contractor and I will get back to you later this evening but I have to run.
OK for starters I do not think you will save more pellets with the P43. Have you looked online for the pads? I saw one somewhere for $59.Google them. Check Amazon and others. The $59 one might have been on amfmenergy.com who sells Englanders which aren't bad stoves for the price but they aren't Harmans either. Comparing apples to oranges.
I'd look around for pads. How much does your dealer want for his pad? To build one yourself the cheapest route would be OSB, DuraRock or other brand of cement backer board, thin-set, grout, and cheap $ tile. Then you need to trim the edges out. These items to build your own would cost a minimum of $50 to $75 so I would look for other options for a less expensive pad. I do have some ideas on how and what if you would still like to build your own to keep the thickness down. Also without screwing it to your hardwood floor.
With a pad it's lay it down and done! Plus building your own would take some labor, picking things up, gas, etc; so the price goes up if you add in all the hidden costs. Many online places offer free delivery on items and / or over a certain price.
I would highly encourage you to get the P68 knowing what I know with mine and heating a two story the same exact SQ Feet. They are awesome stoves and exceptional quality in my opinion and that of many others. Very easy to use and maintain speaking in pellet stove terms. Low maint. & simple. We love ours and I have nothing but good things to say about it. It has been a very pleasant experience.
Another thing to consider is putting it in the room you hang out in a lot. They are a "space heater" in a sense but with some fans you can move the air around. We have had several nights with lows in the twenties with days in the 30's here already and it will be back in a couple of days. The farther you get from the stove it does cool down somewhat. Altogether my home is bigger than 2,350 SQ FT and I am looking into another stove for another area and that will allow me to open that area up and it will also supplement the 2,350 SQ FT core we are currently doing.
I also heated with wood for a long time. A bunch of work. I am kicking myself that I did not go the pellet route long ago. 40 lb bags are so much easier, cleaner, and better in my opinion. That is exactly why I am looking for another stove now. I am sold! I would love to get another Harman but it's not in the budget. Too many other projects and I just dropped a lot of cash on mine. I would buy another in a heart beat. I may still but I am getting another cheaper unit for now. I have other places I could use it in after I replaced it with another Harman if I want to.
What is your home construction? Insulated well? How are you heating now?
If you go the Harman P68 route you will not regret it. I say this from my experience.
I'd look around for pads. How much does your dealer want for his pad? To build one yourself the cheapest route would be OSB, DuraRock or other brand of cement backer board, thin-set, grout, and cheap $ tile. Then you need to trim the edges out. These items to build your own would cost a minimum of $50 to $75 so I would look for other options for a less expensive pad. I do have some ideas on how and what if you would still like to build your own to keep the thickness down. Also without screwing it to your hardwood floor.
With a pad it's lay it down and done! Plus building your own would take some labor, picking things up, gas, etc; so the price goes up if you add in all the hidden costs. Many online places offer free delivery on items and / or over a certain price.
I would highly encourage you to get the P68 knowing what I know with mine and heating a two story the same exact SQ Feet. They are awesome stoves and exceptional quality in my opinion and that of many others. Very easy to use and maintain speaking in pellet stove terms. Low maint. & simple. We love ours and I have nothing but good things to say about it. It has been a very pleasant experience.
Another thing to consider is putting it in the room you hang out in a lot. They are a "space heater" in a sense but with some fans you can move the air around. We have had several nights with lows in the twenties with days in the 30's here already and it will be back in a couple of days. The farther you get from the stove it does cool down somewhat. Altogether my home is bigger than 2,350 SQ FT and I am looking into another stove for another area and that will allow me to open that area up and it will also supplement the 2,350 SQ FT core we are currently doing.
I also heated with wood for a long time. A bunch of work. I am kicking myself that I did not go the pellet route long ago. 40 lb bags are so much easier, cleaner, and better in my opinion. That is exactly why I am looking for another stove now. I am sold! I would love to get another Harman but it's not in the budget. Too many other projects and I just dropped a lot of cash on mine. I would buy another in a heart beat. I may still but I am getting another cheaper unit for now. I have other places I could use it in after I replaced it with another Harman if I want to.
What is your home construction? Insulated well? How are you heating now?
If you go the Harman P68 route you will not regret it. I say this from my experience.
JDenyer236
Feeling the Heat
I went with the P61 but I'm only doing about 1400sqft. With the size your looking to do I would go with the 68 for sure. One of the nice things about a Harman is that they modulate the output based on room temperature. They can burn as low as about 8000btus/hr all the way up to their max rating. Oversizing is really not an issue but undersizing certainly is. One myth that keeps on going is that a smaller stove will save on pellets. Sure a smaller stove will burn less pellets but it will also put out less heat. With less heat your home won't be as comfortable. As they say, go big or go home
TonyVideo
Feeling the Heat
Both stoves will run at the same btu rating when calling for heat as they both heat the same area in a comparison. The 43 will run harder to achieve the same btu demand and will cap out sooner as it is a smaller stove. The heat needed is the same. Another words you will burn the same amount of pellets/btu needed to heat a given space. An argument could be made that the 68 with more surface area would be able to dissipate or extract more heat.
Lake Girl
Moderator
I would think that a do-it-yourself hearth pad would be more practical as it can be specifically built to accommodate the area around the baseboard (custom fit notched around the baseboard).
(broken link removed to http://hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/P68.pdf)
page 6
From the manual:
Installing
Place the stove on a noncombustible type floor or floor protector
that extends a minimum of 6 inches (152mm) to the front of the
load door opening, 6 inches (152mm) to the sides of the door
opening, and 6 inches to the rear. Floor protection must also
extend 2 inches (51mm) beyond each side of any horizontal flue
pipe. The minimum floor protector material is 20 gauge sheet
metal. Other floor protector materials are ceramic tile, stone,
brick, etc
Note that the clearances shown are minimum for safety but do not
leave much room for access when cleaning or servicing. Please
take this into account when placing the stove.
Should also check with local building inspector - usually they defer to what is written in the manual but double check.
(broken link removed to http://hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/P68.pdf)
page 6
From the manual:
Installing
Place the stove on a noncombustible type floor or floor protector
that extends a minimum of 6 inches (152mm) to the front of the
load door opening, 6 inches (152mm) to the sides of the door
opening, and 6 inches to the rear. Floor protection must also
extend 2 inches (51mm) beyond each side of any horizontal flue
pipe. The minimum floor protector material is 20 gauge sheet
metal. Other floor protector materials are ceramic tile, stone,
brick, etc
Note that the clearances shown are minimum for safety but do not
leave much room for access when cleaning or servicing. Please
take this into account when placing the stove.
Should also check with local building inspector - usually they defer to what is written in the manual but double check.
Welcome!
had similar situation with baseboard. Made my own pad. It is raised so as to clear baseboard.
We are heating 1530 sq ft- 2 floors and glad we went with the extra horse power!
Love the Harman!!
Link to my post in 2008: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/p61a-2-installed.19298/#post-287199
had similar situation with baseboard. Made my own pad. It is raised so as to clear baseboard.
We are heating 1530 sq ft- 2 floors and glad we went with the extra horse power!
Love the Harman!!
Link to my post in 2008: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/p61a-2-installed.19298/#post-287199
mepellet
Minister of Fire
IM agreeing the p68 would probably be a lot more capable of heating this sq. footage roughly 2400; 1200 each level. I don't mind spending a couple hundred to build a hearth pad verse over 500 for the one they sale. evidently there are type 1 and 11 pads. the 2 having a higher heat resistance. looks like a lot of the ones you can buy use a metal channel frame with and air gap at the bottom , so the durock would glue to edge of channel frame, probably two layers . then tile. I cant figure what supports the durock though out the middle section , Bags my house has two by four walls with fiberglass insulation. I just added another layer of r15 fiberglass insultation to to the existing insulation last year. I also add two inch rigid foam to the upstair cape knee wall. Have an attached garage and just put two inch rigid foam on the house side wall. I heat a lot now with a better and bens fireplace insert that's from the late seventies early eighties. Does ok if I close of the living and dining room opening with foam so there not getting much heat. Have a big country kitchen I spend most of the time in. Should not have to heat the upstairs in a few years , as there is one bedroom down stairs. Also have hot water baseboard heat from an oil boiler. rather have my fuel money stimulate something local than in the middle east.
I thought I had read that about the 20 guage steel. this deal is saying the hearth needs an r19 vaule not just emeber protection. As far as I can tell the r vaule of 2o quage steel is 0.
mepellet
Minister of Fire
IM agreeing the p68 would probably be a lot more capable of heating this sq. footage roughly 2400; 1200 each level. I don't mind spending a couple hundred to build a hearth pad verse over 500 for the one they sale. evidently there are type 1 and 11 pads. the 2 having a higher heat resistance. looks like a lot of the ones you can buy use a metal channel frame with and air gap at the bottom , so the durock would glue to edge of channel frame, probably two layers . then tile. I cant figure what supports the durock though out the middle section , Bags my house has two by four walls with fiberglass insulation. I just added another layer of r15 fiberglass insultation to to the existing insulation last year. I also add two inch rigid foam to the upstair cape knee wall. Have an attached garage and just put two inch rigid foam on the house side wall. I heat a lot now with a better and bens fireplace insert that's from the late seventies early eighties. Does ok if I close of the living and dining room opening with foam so there not getting much heat. Have a big country kitchen I spend most of the time in. Should not have to heat the upstairs in a few years , as there is one bedroom down stairs. Also have hot water baseboard heat from an oil boiler. rather have my fuel money stimulate something local than in the middle east.
I read your link on the floor protection, thought I had read that. that's why I was surprised when he said tile on a plywood base wood not be suitable. that it needed an r 19 value maybe he met 1.9. but said cement board and tile would surfice. he is a saleman not the installer , I figured all you needed was ember protection as the heat is generated a distance from the floor and the venting is 10 inch on center of the floor. I guess the ash draw is closer to the floor.
I read your link on the floor protection, thought I had read that. that's why I was surprised when he said tile on a plywood base wood not be suitable. that it needed an r 19 value maybe he met 1.9. but said cement board and tile would surfice. he is a saleman not the installer , I figured all you needed was ember protection as the heat is generated a distance from the floor and the venting is 10 inch on center of the floor. I guess the ash draw is closer to the floor.
bogieb
Minister of Fire
Looking at the specs, the P61A would also do the job. A couple hundred dollars cheaper and a workhorse (I have one). I think either would do the job, just trying to give you options
Something that might be helpful is to go to the Harman website and look at the manual and install manual. Or just Google Harman P68 installation manual. These will inform you as to what you need. You can download them to look over. Pay particular attention to the installation manual because it will answer all of these questions.
In my opinion IMO $500 is a bit hefty. Way too much for what I'd be willing to pay. $500 bucks will buy you a whole lot of hearth. Look on Craiglist locally for a deal on a. I have seen them there for much cheaper. There are so many options for a hearth pad it is limitless. Stone or ceramic tile will work without a doubt. You will find more info and help here than from any salesman and most installers for that matter. There are many with unsurpassed knowledge here. Even some qualified installers and service techs. This is where you want to be to get your questions answered.
I was fortunate and my salesman / dealer was a top notch HVAC business owner who knew his stuff. No confusion whatsoever. He also heats his home and business with P68's.It has been an easy transition for me and this forum has been even more help and support.
BUILDING YOUR HEARTH PAD will be easy if you are willing to work a little and are halfway handy. Very simple process.
1.) To stay under 1 1/2" I would get a sheet of 7/16" or 1/2" OSB or plywood to start and cut to the size you would like. Note: Figure out which tile you will use and cut the plywood and Durorock so the tile will work out without cutting the tile. Say, 3' x 4' would be a good size and would do what you are looking for and cover the requirements. OSB is cheaper than plywood. Not much though. I prefer plywood myself. An idea I have to preserve the finish on your existing hardwood floor. Go to a fabric store and get some felt or cloth and glue it onto the bottom of the plywood with spray on contact adhesive. Hearth board could be removed and you retain your nice floors.
2.) Durarock comes in 3' x 5' sheets. You could cut it to 3' x 4' or the plywood at 3' x 5'. 3 x 5 might stick out too much in front but this is your call. Get one sheet of 1/2" and that is all you need. ($10 - $15). You can cut it with a razor knife scoring it or a diamond blade on a circular saw or grinder wheel. Dusty but a cleaner cut. Cut outside. The razor knife scoring works fine but leaves a somewhat rough cut edge which is not an issue if it fits to size.
3.) Set the plywood in place with a 1" x 2" boarder trim standing up on edge around the outside edge of the plywood and nail it into the plywood only. Stain or paint boarder trim before the install. Easier and will not stain from thinset or grout. The 1" x 2" actually measures 3/4" x 1 1/2". Easy to find in stock with the wood of your choice almost anywhere.
4.) Set the durorock into the 1 x 2 frame onto the plywood. *** Note: You need screws< drywall or similar) less than 1" to attach durorock to plywood base as to not run thru and into your hardwood floor beneath.*** Or you could use some thinset troweled onto the plywood that would bond the durorock to said plywood. This will work but not ideal for a bond. Screws are the best. You could also glue it with Liquid Nails or similar. This might be the best and safest. Let it dry and tile it the next day. If you screw it you can tile immediately.
5.) Set your tiles in with spacers (cheap rubber + found in tile dept.) on a dry run or test fit. You could do this first on the durorock to see how it works out before you cut the plywood and / or durorock. I suggest this as a first step so you will have the plan together.*** Note: A 12" x 12" tile does not measure exactly 12 x 12. They are made to equal 12 x 12 at final install with grout lines. The tile thickness is usually 1/4" to 3/8" thick and can vary slightly so check this.
6.) Now you are ready to mix the thinset. A clean 5 gallon bucket, drill, and a mixer bit work well. Be sure to add water slowly and not make it too runny. If you do no big deal just add some more thinset to thicker. Needs to be workable in like a cake icing consistency. Get your cheap 1/8" trowel and spread onto Durorock covering the whole area. Now set your tile and spacers. Let dry over night.
7.) Mix grout and grout joints using a small sponge trowel wiping up excess with a wet sponge and a bucket of water frequently rinsing sponge. You will see a haze and not get it all. Let dry overnight. Last wipe with a clean sponge and rags etc; to remove the haze and residue. Your are now finished. Ready for stove installation.
I know the P series stoves minimum clearance is 2" to the rear wall. I pulled mine out slightly 5" -6" and it helped me get the pipe outside to where I wanted it to live. More importantly it helps for rear and side panel removal, cleaning, and maintenance. Do what works out for you or what you are limited too.
In my opinion IMO $500 is a bit hefty. Way too much for what I'd be willing to pay. $500 bucks will buy you a whole lot of hearth. Look on Craiglist locally for a deal on a. I have seen them there for much cheaper. There are so many options for a hearth pad it is limitless. Stone or ceramic tile will work without a doubt. You will find more info and help here than from any salesman and most installers for that matter. There are many with unsurpassed knowledge here. Even some qualified installers and service techs. This is where you want to be to get your questions answered.
I was fortunate and my salesman / dealer was a top notch HVAC business owner who knew his stuff. No confusion whatsoever. He also heats his home and business with P68's.It has been an easy transition for me and this forum has been even more help and support.
BUILDING YOUR HEARTH PAD will be easy if you are willing to work a little and are halfway handy. Very simple process.
1.) To stay under 1 1/2" I would get a sheet of 7/16" or 1/2" OSB or plywood to start and cut to the size you would like. Note: Figure out which tile you will use and cut the plywood and Durorock so the tile will work out without cutting the tile. Say, 3' x 4' would be a good size and would do what you are looking for and cover the requirements. OSB is cheaper than plywood. Not much though. I prefer plywood myself. An idea I have to preserve the finish on your existing hardwood floor. Go to a fabric store and get some felt or cloth and glue it onto the bottom of the plywood with spray on contact adhesive. Hearth board could be removed and you retain your nice floors.
2.) Durarock comes in 3' x 5' sheets. You could cut it to 3' x 4' or the plywood at 3' x 5'. 3 x 5 might stick out too much in front but this is your call. Get one sheet of 1/2" and that is all you need. ($10 - $15). You can cut it with a razor knife scoring it or a diamond blade on a circular saw or grinder wheel. Dusty but a cleaner cut. Cut outside. The razor knife scoring works fine but leaves a somewhat rough cut edge which is not an issue if it fits to size.
3.) Set the plywood in place with a 1" x 2" boarder trim standing up on edge around the outside edge of the plywood and nail it into the plywood only. Stain or paint boarder trim before the install. Easier and will not stain from thinset or grout. The 1" x 2" actually measures 3/4" x 1 1/2". Easy to find in stock with the wood of your choice almost anywhere.
4.) Set the durorock into the 1 x 2 frame onto the plywood. *** Note: You need screws< drywall or similar) less than 1" to attach durorock to plywood base as to not run thru and into your hardwood floor beneath.*** Or you could use some thinset troweled onto the plywood that would bond the durorock to said plywood. This will work but not ideal for a bond. Screws are the best. You could also glue it with Liquid Nails or similar. This might be the best and safest. Let it dry and tile it the next day. If you screw it you can tile immediately.
5.) Set your tiles in with spacers (cheap rubber + found in tile dept.) on a dry run or test fit. You could do this first on the durorock to see how it works out before you cut the plywood and / or durorock. I suggest this as a first step so you will have the plan together.*** Note: A 12" x 12" tile does not measure exactly 12 x 12. They are made to equal 12 x 12 at final install with grout lines. The tile thickness is usually 1/4" to 3/8" thick and can vary slightly so check this.
6.) Now you are ready to mix the thinset. A clean 5 gallon bucket, drill, and a mixer bit work well. Be sure to add water slowly and not make it too runny. If you do no big deal just add some more thinset to thicker. Needs to be workable in like a cake icing consistency. Get your cheap 1/8" trowel and spread onto Durorock covering the whole area. Now set your tile and spacers. Let dry over night.
7.) Mix grout and grout joints using a small sponge trowel wiping up excess with a wet sponge and a bucket of water frequently rinsing sponge. You will see a haze and not get it all. Let dry overnight. Last wipe with a clean sponge and rags etc; to remove the haze and residue. Your are now finished. Ready for stove installation.
I know the P series stoves minimum clearance is 2" to the rear wall. I pulled mine out slightly 5" -6" and it helped me get the pipe outside to where I wanted it to live. More importantly it helps for rear and side panel removal, cleaning, and maintenance. Do what works out for you or what you are limited too.
your
I like your hearth pad plans , I may need to go with four foot plywood, and two pieces of durorock to get the 48 inch corner herath dimensions. since it has a 60 inch diagonal front to back. try to paste a pic of dimensions. I was worried about using plywood as a base because I thought it may bow without a frame under it. But You got me thinking by adding the trim boards on the edges would prevent this. Thanks for the thought you put into this. Also because of its shape I think I would need to cut some tile. have heard of people cutting a few pieces with a small disk grinder. Not sure if that makes a very accurate cut. going to try and post pic of size and shape.
I like your hearth pad plans , I may need to go with four foot plywood, and two pieces of durorock to get the 48 inch corner herath dimensions. since it has a 60 inch diagonal front to back. try to paste a pic of dimensions. I was worried about using plywood as a base because I thought it may bow without a frame under it. But You got me thinking by adding the trim boards on the edges would prevent this. Thanks for the thought you put into this. Also because of its shape I think I would need to cut some tile. have heard of people cutting a few pieces with a small disk grinder. Not sure if that makes a very accurate cut. going to try and post pic of size and shape.
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Lake Girl
Moderator
Only thing I can think of is that the salesman is confused between a wood stove and a pellet stove ... Double check with the local building inspector just in case... they usually defer to the manual though.
He's right. It has an R value of .0003 per INCH! If they recommend 20 gauge steel, then they are just wanting to prevent you from burning your carpet or hardwood floor from a stray ember.
That makes me wonder about the overall intention of this dealer you are willing to invest your money with. It sounds like he's out to milk you for all he can get. For him to also bad mouth Englanders tells me about his motives also. Granted that PERHAPS Harman's are better, you have to wonder if his underlying motive is the higher margin on a Harman than an Englander. Be careful with your money.
Lake Girl
Moderator
What would the profit margin be on that $500 hearth pad? Especially if it doesn't accommodate the baseboard heat...
Read my post. I was talking about profit margins on a Harman vs an Englander. Profit margin on a hearth pad suitable for the stove he's looking at appears to be about $450 if all he needs is a sheet of steel!
DOWN GIRL
!! 
Well I stopped at their main store today, to look at some hearth pads they had. I mentioned scot at the oil dealership mentioned tile wasn't enough for a pellet stove, and had mentioned r19. I think he meant r 1.9 . most of the hearth pads he had where rated at 1,6 and extra thick one 2.4. I found one I could get for under 225.dollars with metal wrapping the edges and 1 1/4 thick This would slide under the baseboard. Don't know if cutting a slot for the hot water pipe would effect its integrity.. mentioned to the business owner the manual said 20 gauge sheet metal according to manual would sufficient. He said it may be state or for insurance purposes. Neither of these people do the actual install. I will talk to the installer when I get a chance. This is not just a stove shop but a home furnace and heating oil dealer. I don't think I've talked to the most knowledgeable one there. But its two hours to another dealer and would have to pay travel time for warranty work as Harman just pays for parts and labor. Have emailed the question on cutting a slot in the hearth pad to the manufacturer and waiting on response, 200 I would buy 500 I would make.
odd when looking at the NFI site , I find no one listed as being a certified pellet stove installer in Washington county, Maine. you would think a dealer installing them would need a NFi certified installer.
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