I am currently trying to install a timberline fireplace insert stove with a flue on the top of the firebox...I currently have a double walled chimmney and the stove pipe has in ID of 9". I went out and bought an increaser 8" ot 9" and can't get it to fit into the opening of the woodstove...I took a measurement with my tape and found out that it was 7.75 " ID how can I attach this pre-existing 9" chimmney to this opening?
having a hard time getting my stove pipe increaser to fit
- Thread starter Orion
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Orion said:
We need to know a lot more...
You say "fireplace insert stove" - is it an insert (into masonry fireplace) or is it a freestanding stove.
You are NOT allowed to put this stove or inserts into a metal (pre-fab, 0 cleerance, etc.) fireplace, and you will cause grave harm to your home and family by doing so!
Tell us more so we can rest easy....
A note: many early stoves had strange size flue collars - often it was the type of heavy steel piping the manufacturer could find. Old Mill stoves were one example. Our shop developed what we call "The Old Mill Crimp" and what a crimp it was! You'd have to crimp the heck out of an 8" pipe, then do it again - then it was so angled that you had to straighten it out by using the hand crimpers and bending upwards all the way around...a regular work of art!
RedSleds said:
It scares me when he says a nine inch double chimney. It is very rare for anything other than certain pre-fab fireplaces to have this size!
Elk, time to inspect this one! :ahhh:
What other alluded to is probably this stove should not be installed either in the setup your are attempting to retro fit or not at all
You did not mention if it is UL approved ,Ul wrote the standards for testing. Without the UL approval it can not be legally installed in USA or Canada in a residential dwelling Possibly in a shed. No insurance company will approve an non listed stove as well.
Check behind the stove to see if there is a manufactures tag and if it has the ul listing. If not then this could save you a lot of effort removing it when it gets condemned. All stoves manufactured before 1979 did not have UL listings. Todays codes require all appliances to be listed, be it wood stoves or your dishwasher. The only reconised testing agency for wood stoves is UL. Many companies may have tested stoves but to obtain the UL listing they have to test to the UL standard. Timberlines manufactured in the 80's were listed. You did not mention which state you live in? Many states adopted the EPA clean air standards in 1990 which governed polutants and effeciencies. If you live in one of those States only Epa approved stoves can be installed. Some states did not adopt the EPA standards and left it up to the individual communities for adoption of the EPA clean air acts. It is really hard to ask others for advice installing an illegal stove. Please check the rear of your stove for compliance and report back where many are willing to help
You did not mention if it is UL approved ,Ul wrote the standards for testing. Without the UL approval it can not be legally installed in USA or Canada in a residential dwelling Possibly in a shed. No insurance company will approve an non listed stove as well.
Check behind the stove to see if there is a manufactures tag and if it has the ul listing. If not then this could save you a lot of effort removing it when it gets condemned. All stoves manufactured before 1979 did not have UL listings. Todays codes require all appliances to be listed, be it wood stoves or your dishwasher. The only reconised testing agency for wood stoves is UL. Many companies may have tested stoves but to obtain the UL listing they have to test to the UL standard. Timberlines manufactured in the 80's were listed. You did not mention which state you live in? Many states adopted the EPA clean air standards in 1990 which governed polutants and effeciencies. If you live in one of those States only Epa approved stoves can be installed. Some states did not adopt the EPA standards and left it up to the individual communities for adoption of the EPA clean air acts. It is really hard to ask others for advice installing an illegal stove. Please check the rear of your stove for compliance and report back where many are willing to help
Hey Guys,
Thanks for all your replys...I will try to explain what I know...this has obviously been brought to my attention and I have researched this and might have some information, that will be of help. Firstly, this is a Heatilator Mark 123 fireplace / chimmney system. It is a factory manufactured / sealed unit, that was installed as part of the new construction of our home(built in the mid 70's). We purchased the home back in the early 90's and as per our home inspection, the fireplace was deemed "working", and in fact, we bought the house with a woodstove installed at the time of inspection. For the first two years we burned wood in it, foolishly gave away the woodstove to friends that needed it more than we did, and then let the fireplace sit empty until now. I went hunting for a Ul # or model # tag on this fireplace, to help with its' limitations, and what it is rated for. I wound up finding a UL # on the chimmney and a company that manufactured this. Just to explain the chimmney, so you all understand it correctly, it is 13" OD double walled pipe, with a 9" ID stove pipe running down the center. This chimmney has a crimped collar and attaches to the sealed fireplace unit on the top...the whole thing is airtight double walled with insulation sandwiched between the metal walls that makes up the firebox...did I say that there have been open fires in this fireplace? anyway, I called up heatilator and gave them the UL# and the model #, guess what...they are all class A fire rated, correct me if I am wrong ( as well as heatilator) but doesn't that mean you can burn in them? Wasn't this certified by a building inspector when installed in the building of the home? It obviously meets code to be a fireplace, and if that is the case, then if I would be burning in a woodstove enclosure, wouldn't that even burn cooler than an open flame? What is the NFPA A rating good to 1700 - 2000 degrees?
Thanks for all your replys...I will try to explain what I know...this has obviously been brought to my attention and I have researched this and might have some information, that will be of help. Firstly, this is a Heatilator Mark 123 fireplace / chimmney system. It is a factory manufactured / sealed unit, that was installed as part of the new construction of our home(built in the mid 70's). We purchased the home back in the early 90's and as per our home inspection, the fireplace was deemed "working", and in fact, we bought the house with a woodstove installed at the time of inspection. For the first two years we burned wood in it, foolishly gave away the woodstove to friends that needed it more than we did, and then let the fireplace sit empty until now. I went hunting for a Ul # or model # tag on this fireplace, to help with its' limitations, and what it is rated for. I wound up finding a UL # on the chimmney and a company that manufactured this. Just to explain the chimmney, so you all understand it correctly, it is 13" OD double walled pipe, with a 9" ID stove pipe running down the center. This chimmney has a crimped collar and attaches to the sealed fireplace unit on the top...the whole thing is airtight double walled with insulation sandwiched between the metal walls that makes up the firebox...did I say that there have been open fires in this fireplace? anyway, I called up heatilator and gave them the UL# and the model #, guess what...they are all class A fire rated, correct me if I am wrong ( as well as heatilator) but doesn't that mean you can burn in them? Wasn't this certified by a building inspector when installed in the building of the home? It obviously meets code to be a fireplace, and if that is the case, then if I would be burning in a woodstove enclosure, wouldn't that even burn cooler than an open flame? What is the NFPA A rating good to 1700 - 2000 degrees?
let me get this right firestarter...since the EPA regulates clean air standards, I could burn an open fire in my fireplace, and that would be ok, but if I were burning that fire in a woodstove, then I have to make sure it meets clean air standards?
Orion said:
Well, that sounds better. Yes, it sounds listed and although it might not meet the specs of today, it is already existing and therefore grandfathered.
Back to the pipe - read my post about the "old mill crimp" - or check to see if a non-crimped end will fit around the outside of the collar - this is not the right way, but if it is a tight fit and furnace cement is used, it should work.
Keep all crimps running down, cause a stove like that is likely to condense water.
as far as codes and standard, the idea is this - open fireplaces put a lot of air up with the fire which means the hotter the fire, the more cooling air there is. Wood stoves put a limited amount of air up, and older models like yours can create a lot of tars....a chimney fire even after a few weeks of these tars can hit some high temps.
That is some basic info.
Hand crimpers will probably have to be purchased at a plumbing and heating shop or online - get the 5 blade type, NOT the 3 blade gutter ones. Without the right tools, the job is very difficult!
thanks craig...I was thinking about bringing the increaser to a metal fabricator in the area , and see if he could get the crimp right...the increaser I have is galvanized....should I opt for a stainless one instead, or doesn't it really matter?
Perhaps I'm not understanding something now or in the past (highly possible), but I thought that unless an insert was specifically listed to allow installation into a prefab fireplace, then you couldn't do it. And that even when this was allowed, that a new chimney liner that was spec'd for the listed insert was needed to reline the old prefab chimney since the old prefab chimney is likely not spec'd for use with the insert to be installed. If I'm right (and it's a long shot) is the Timberline insert listed (approved) for a prefab install?
. It is a factory manufactured / sealed unit, that was installed as part of the new construction of our home(built in the mid 70’s). Since it was installed prior to UL listings that is the fireplace unit it is unlisted It is grandfathered to continue its use. Unless listed no insert may be installed. The fact that one was there a few years back does not grandfather it use forever Since you are now installing another insert you will be governed by today’s codes
Brief disclaimer: I am giving you a guide line based on today’s codes. Not all municipalities apply all of the codes. It would be best to discuss this with your inspections dept I am going to address each component concerns.
The existing chimney code requires to be cleaned and a full inspection report on it’s condition before another wood stove can be installed. However you can continue using it with the existing appliance. You said is UL approved but did not mention to which UL standard Standard Ul 127 is tested to 1700 degrees in order to use it the stove must be tested to 127 as well UL 103 is tested to 2100 degrees or known as HT 2100 If your stove is not listed to the 127 then UL 103 must be used Calling it class A fire rated was a standard in the late 70 but no longer recognized today.
So Re read the label and see if it I was tested to today’s standard. In the 1970 building inspectors approved Poured concrete at 2000 psi today codes require 3000 psi yes in the 70’s it was approved but it would be illegal to use 2000psi concrete today.
Wasn’t this certified by a building inspector when installed in the building of the home? It obviously meets code to be a fireplace,
Existing fireplace
I would be burning in a woodstove enclosure, wouldn’t that even burn cooler than an open flame? What is the NFPA A rating good to 1700 - 2000 degrees?
I really like your logic of presenting an argument. First of all you are confusing Vent pipe temp ratings to withstand a chimney fire not normal stove operating temps (1700 -2100). Second you would not be trying to install an insert if the fireplace captured heat and emitted it to the living space. With a large opening and huge amount of air the fireplace never hold heat long enough to reach wood stove temps that enclosure was never designed for the heat of an insert unless it is listed to support that. Chimney fire box requirements is for 10” solid masonry or that requirement is reduced by 2” when using fire bricks. Normally there is two rows of bricks and fire brick is installed with using the 2” thickness.
You will have to check the rear blocks they could be 10” solids but if 4” or 8” hollow they are not adequate and a couple thin gage sheet metal pieces will not satisfy today’s code. The most important question is the existing Heatalator fire place listed for using an insert?. My suggestion to you, since you have contacted Heatalator them have them produce the listing where it is allowable to install an insert.
The insert:
Many timberlines were UL approved manufactured after 1979 is yours? If it is not than it can not be installed legally Also is it listed to be installed in the heatalator?. From the sound of your description your timberline was pre 1979 vintage. It was meant to be installed by removing the damper and sliding it in place. It was those applications that pushed the federal government to step in and require stoves to be tested and direct vented.
Things can go wrong and I think it will be safe is not good enough, before I as an inspector, can sign my name of approval. I require documentation proving it is a correct setup. If it is safe I will sign. IF it can not be proven then asking me to take a leap of faith is un fair. All these concerns you should be asking yourself. At what price do you want to risk safety for heat?. Again I am not your town inspector talk to him. It is possible it is doable . You just may have to do some digging to find documentation proving it. Don’t be mad at the messenger because I may have told you what you do not want to hear. I would have not made the effort if I did not think there are safety concerns.
Brief disclaimer: I am giving you a guide line based on today’s codes. Not all municipalities apply all of the codes. It would be best to discuss this with your inspections dept I am going to address each component concerns.
The existing chimney code requires to be cleaned and a full inspection report on it’s condition before another wood stove can be installed. However you can continue using it with the existing appliance. You said is UL approved but did not mention to which UL standard Standard Ul 127 is tested to 1700 degrees in order to use it the stove must be tested to 127 as well UL 103 is tested to 2100 degrees or known as HT 2100 If your stove is not listed to the 127 then UL 103 must be used Calling it class A fire rated was a standard in the late 70 but no longer recognized today.
So Re read the label and see if it I was tested to today’s standard. In the 1970 building inspectors approved Poured concrete at 2000 psi today codes require 3000 psi yes in the 70’s it was approved but it would be illegal to use 2000psi concrete today.
Wasn’t this certified by a building inspector when installed in the building of the home? It obviously meets code to be a fireplace,
Existing fireplace
I would be burning in a woodstove enclosure, wouldn’t that even burn cooler than an open flame? What is the NFPA A rating good to 1700 - 2000 degrees?
I really like your logic of presenting an argument. First of all you are confusing Vent pipe temp ratings to withstand a chimney fire not normal stove operating temps (1700 -2100). Second you would not be trying to install an insert if the fireplace captured heat and emitted it to the living space. With a large opening and huge amount of air the fireplace never hold heat long enough to reach wood stove temps that enclosure was never designed for the heat of an insert unless it is listed to support that. Chimney fire box requirements is for 10” solid masonry or that requirement is reduced by 2” when using fire bricks. Normally there is two rows of bricks and fire brick is installed with using the 2” thickness.
You will have to check the rear blocks they could be 10” solids but if 4” or 8” hollow they are not adequate and a couple thin gage sheet metal pieces will not satisfy today’s code. The most important question is the existing Heatalator fire place listed for using an insert?. My suggestion to you, since you have contacted Heatalator them have them produce the listing where it is allowable to install an insert.
The insert:
Many timberlines were UL approved manufactured after 1979 is yours? If it is not than it can not be installed legally Also is it listed to be installed in the heatalator?. From the sound of your description your timberline was pre 1979 vintage. It was meant to be installed by removing the damper and sliding it in place. It was those applications that pushed the federal government to step in and require stoves to be tested and direct vented.
Things can go wrong and I think it will be safe is not good enough, before I as an inspector, can sign my name of approval. I require documentation proving it is a correct setup. If it is safe I will sign. IF it can not be proven then asking me to take a leap of faith is un fair. All these concerns you should be asking yourself. At what price do you want to risk safety for heat?. Again I am not your town inspector talk to him. It is possible it is doable . You just may have to do some digging to find documentation proving it. Don’t be mad at the messenger because I may have told you what you do not want to hear. I would have not made the effort if I did not think there are safety concerns.
Hi Guys, this is likely a long shot but hopefully some of you still are interested in this stuff, I certainly could use your advice and am very interested in hearing about your outcome here.
I am basically trying, or hoping to essentially do the same thing; put a woodstove (Garrison made in 1980, 6" outlet) into a Heatalator 123. I picked up the stove because it will fit nicely within the fireplace, since getting down to it though, the types of concerns mentioned here have occurred to me. I know enough to keep the 6" chimney pipe throughout, and figured on a SS chimney liner, figuring the 9" double wall Heatalator chimney to be then a very safe outer set up? And originally I too assumed the fireplace box design with 3 generously spaced layers of sheet metal sides and lined w/firebrick and metal faced air gap in the rear to be fine for inserting a smaller stove w/minimal clearances. As well it may, the fireplace may be 40 or 50 years old, but has a UL plate (without specifics on a rating) the stove is cast iron and sound but I don't see any UL tag.
My hopefully possible, but far less than attractive second alternative is to rip out the wall around the fireplace, get rid of the studs, header etc, keep the top section and chimney in place, do the SS liner and use metal studs under tile board with an air gap at conventional wood stove clearences. Is this even possible, it sounds as though the regulations may preclude any use of the fireplace equipment in conjunction with the stove. I also have had a slightly larger version of the same stove with an 8" pipe that would be better for heat if this alternate is a possibility? If you have any expertise or experience; I appreciate the help, please share it with me.
Thanks.
I am basically trying, or hoping to essentially do the same thing; put a woodstove (Garrison made in 1980, 6" outlet) into a Heatalator 123. I picked up the stove because it will fit nicely within the fireplace, since getting down to it though, the types of concerns mentioned here have occurred to me. I know enough to keep the 6" chimney pipe throughout, and figured on a SS chimney liner, figuring the 9" double wall Heatalator chimney to be then a very safe outer set up? And originally I too assumed the fireplace box design with 3 generously spaced layers of sheet metal sides and lined w/firebrick and metal faced air gap in the rear to be fine for inserting a smaller stove w/minimal clearances. As well it may, the fireplace may be 40 or 50 years old, but has a UL plate (without specifics on a rating) the stove is cast iron and sound but I don't see any UL tag.
My hopefully possible, but far less than attractive second alternative is to rip out the wall around the fireplace, get rid of the studs, header etc, keep the top section and chimney in place, do the SS liner and use metal studs under tile board with an air gap at conventional wood stove clearences. Is this even possible, it sounds as though the regulations may preclude any use of the fireplace equipment in conjunction with the stove. I also have had a slightly larger version of the same stove with an 8" pipe that would be better for heat if this alternate is a possibility? If you have any expertise or experience; I appreciate the help, please share it with me.
Thanks.
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