Hearth building error?

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SeaSky

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This is my first posting to your great forum about the joys and safe use of wood heat. Needless to say, I am extremely impressed with the politeness and professionalism of the discussions in the forum--it makes for both very pleasurable and informative reading. Thank you.

A quick background: I have burned wood most weekends for some years and cannot imagine a home without a wood stove. To get longer burns than my little Lopi Parlor could handle, I recently upgraded to a Napoleon 1400PL. Thus far, I'm getting an easy 10 hours burn in my "testing phase." The stove was purchased new and professionally installed by a first rate company. In addition, I had a new custom hearth (53"x53") professionally built that is flush with a new solid red oak 3/4" floor. The hearth is topped with ceramic tiles laid on Thin-Set, which is laid on top of 1/2 Durock. This was built over the 3/4" ply sub floor. The frames were "sistered" underneath to stiffen the area of floor—so far so good...well almost.

The problem? During the construction of the new wood floor the rosin paper laid on top of the sub floor was continued where the hearth was to be built. Hence, the finished hearth has paper between the sub flooring and the Durock. Expectantly, the radiant heat from the front of the stove heats the tiles up quite a bit, but much more than my prior smaller Lopi Parlor stove. It almost too hot to stand on on the outer front tiles, all else is cool behind it. Napoleon only specified "an approved non-combustible hearth pad..." and no R specs. The new hearth far exceeds all minimum dimensions. I even got 22" in front.

I understand some basics about heat transfer (I am a former Engineer) and likely would not see a combustion potential as the paper is buried under the Durock, but the worrywart in me is considering having this beatifically made hearth demolished to remove the paper to prevent a (theoretical?) problem during prolonged burning periods from the continued soaking up of radiant heat into the tiles. I also thought about all those heat sinking screws passing through the sandwich? Am I over-engineering this or worrying too much? As much as money is dear to me, I hate more to see his beautiful work torn up if it does not have to be--he sweated the details on the finish--but I will do it if it is the right thing to do. So from a standards and safely perspective, should I have the hearth torn up and rebuilt from scratch?
 
HELLO, I'M A TILE SETTER AND STONE WORKER FOR 20 YEARS ! IS THE ROSIN PAPER UNDER THE DUROCK WITCH IS UNDER A TILE OR STONE? I COULDN'T SEE THAT BEING A PROBLEM THE COMBUSTIBLE IS UNDER TO LAYERS OF NON COMBUSTIBLES !! IF THAT IS THE CASE THERE IS NO WAY THAT WOULD START FIRE NOT TO MENTION NO OXYGEN TO BURN!! JUST TO MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER I WOULD CALL THE DUROCK COMPANY ..AT 1 800 USG-4YOU... THATS A CHICAGO PHONE # THEY WOULD PUT YOU AT EASE!!! GOOD LUCK
 
The paper is buried under 1/2" of Durock and 5-16" ceramic tile. If I had thought about it longer, the 'no oxygen' issue is key too--thank you for bringing me to my senses! Regarding the continued absorption of radiant energy over time, I will call Durock as you suggested. Of note, I witnessed my immediate neighbor's house go up as an inferno from an electrical fire (cord under rug)--quite horrifying. Stuff like that gets you thinking.
 
There's enough oxygen there for it to start smoldering, and that's all you need for some really bad things to happen. Remember, your wood subfloor is porous, so there's air there.

I would do two things... I'd first contact them to verify that there's not an R value requirement. As it stands now, you have about R0.3 or so before the paper. What bothers me is you said the floor gets almost too hot to stand on, and I'm assuming you still haven't had any long duration HOT fires with this stove yet. If the floor is indeed to hot to stand on, and you aren't even burning really hot yet, I'd be concerned if it were my house... regardless of what they require for floor protection. The second thing I'd do is take some temp readings in the areas of concern with an IR thermometer with a good long and hot fire going. If your floor is reaching over 150° F, I'd be getting pretty concerned. Much over that and I'd be ripping it up.
 
OK TRY THIS TAKE A PIECE OF DUROCK AND TILE AND PLYWOOD AND A PIECE OF ROSIN PAPER DUPLICATE THE DESIGN OF YOUR HEARTH. AND THAN TAKE A TORCH TO THE TOP OF IT ALL AND GO TO TOWN !! I WILL BET YOU CAN MAKE THAT ROSIN PAPER SMOLDER!!! AND IN YOUR APPLICATION YOU HAVE THIN SET AS WELL !!
 
RAMSAY said:
OK TRY THIS TAKE A PIECE OF DUROCK AND TILE AND PLYWOOD AND A PIECE OF ROSIN PAPER DUPLICATE THE DESIGN OF YOUR HEARTH. AND THAN TAKE A TORCH TO THE TOP OF IT ALL AND GO TO TOWN !! I WILL BET YOU CAN MAKE THAT ROSIN PAPER SMOLDER!!! AND IN YOUR APPLICATION YOU HAVE THIN SET AS WELL !!
Please turn your caps lock off. Makes it hard to read with all the yelling...
 
Wet1 said:
There's enough oxygen there for it to start smoldering, and that's all you need for some really bad things to happen. Remember, your wood subfloor is porous, so there's air there.

I would do two things... I'd first contact them to verify that there's not an R value requirement. As it stands now, you have about R0.3 or so before the paper. What bothers me is you said the floor gets almost too hot to stand on, and I'm assuming you still haven't had any long duration HOT fires with this stove yet. If the floor is indeed to hot to stand on, and you aren't even burning really hot yet, I'd be concerned if it were my house... regardless of what they require for floor protection. The second thing I'd do is take some temp readings in the areas of concern with an IR thermometer with a good long and hot fire going. If your floor is reaching over 150° F, I'd be getting pretty concerned. Much over that and I'd be ripping it up.


The heat causing all the mischief is due to mostly radient through the glass and not the bottom of the unit per se, so I need to work in excess of the stove's floor specs. The floor is, in fact, barely warm under the stove. It appears then I need to measure how hot is too hot per your suggestion. The duration of heating in my example of the hot tiles was over several days with a goodly hot fire (about 600-750 deg stack temp using a probe thermometer) so things had some time to heat up--I had the house up to about 85 degrees (35 deg. outside) just for this purpose. I wanted to know my stove's dyamics before the cold came roaring in. In a worse case scenirio it may be much simplier perhaps to rebuild just the front half of my hearth (and lay sheet metal under it too) as the back portion remains cool. Buy the way, the Napolean is a great stove on all counts and I'm happy with that choice. I will contact my stove installer too to ask his advice.
 
You're worrying too much. The rosin paper is setting on a combustible sub floor. The paper and the wood will both burn if subjected to enough heat. None of your worries should be in regard to the rosin paper. You have a lot of tile in front of the window and since the tile is floor height the tile is close to the stove window. I too can get the tile in front of my stove too hot to stand on barefoot, this is normal with a large window and a stove with a roaring fire even if the stove itself isn't really hot.

My hearth is two layers of durock elevated 3.5" on steel studs and topped with tile. The tile still gets really hot in front of that window.

You're fine. For heaven's sake, don't worry about that paper. Also, the screws are buried under tile and thinset and aren't a problem since they are below the required ember barrier. Your stove, like many, does not require fancy materials beneath the tile, only continuous ember protection. You could use a single sheet of diamond plate steel for a hearth pad. That would look cool.

You met the specs, passed your inspection, and did more than required for your hearth. Sleep easy.
 
Having read all the great replies, I think the key is gathering more information, i.e. temperature readings to know what I am dealing with. Perhaps what caught me by surprise is the extra heat generated by the bigger stove--it'll swallow eight splits easily and give me a nice 10 hour burn with more than enough embers for the morning for a quick start. My older smaller Parlor stove could just fit three or four logs max--so all this heat in the bigger stove had to go somewhere. So from the responses, I read caution on one end (that can be answered by measurement) and not to worry on the other (as I've greatly exceeded manufacturer specs). In contrast to my testing the stove as I noted above, my normal usage with the larger stove will employ smaller fires, in lieu of bigger (unnecessary) ones for the size of my home (1200 sq-ft). The nicest thing about the deeper box is putting the logs in N-S thereby keeping the wood from accidentally rolling towards the glass during the settling and great cook top.

Needless to say, I very much appreciate the community of help that was offered in my dilemma. Thank you all.
 
EUREKA!! I figured it out! I am sharing this in case others may have a similar problem.

My old stove window was effectively four inches higher than the new one (due to my original raised hearth design).

I keep wondering why not only my pad but my new wood floor was heating up beyond my comfort level too--even 25 inches in front of the stove. With the significantly lowered window, the radiation was pelting my floor at a much less acute angle and at a much closer distance. With my original smaller raised hearth, my floor hardly got warm, even with a hot burn over many days.

Hence: I am going raise the hearth under the stove about four inches to redirect the heat over a significant broader area. This will be an addition to my existing hearth so all that nicely crafted work already done can be left intact. So the modification will make it a stepped hearth design instead, which is nice too.

If longer legs are not available, my plan is to either build a four inch high matching tiled box just slightly larger than the footprint of the stove or opt for two long interesting granite pieces, one for each side to rest the stove on (I will likely bolt it down to the rock). Needless to say, when I get done with this modification, neither an earthquake or molten lava will be a problem.
 
Sea,

Unless this is just something you want to do, I would take some temp measurements and see if it's worth worrying about or not before going any further. Chances are the actual surface temps you're feeling (by touch) are probably not a real concern... but I'd check with an IR thermometer just to be safe. Remember, this stove has gone through extensive testing (UL etc) and if the manufacture only requires amber protection with no R value, it should not be causing a dangerous situation with a hearth which meets this criteria.
 
Wet1 said:
Sea,

Unless this is just something you want to do, I would take some temp measurements and see if it's worth worrying about or not before going any further. Chances are the actual surface temps you're feeling (by touch) are probably not a real concern... but I'd check with an IR thermometer just to be safe. Remember, this stove has gone through extensive testing (UL etc) and if the manufacture only requires amber protection with no R value, it should not be causing a dangerous situation with a hearth which meets this criteria.

Yes, you make a good point to confirm how hot is too hot to see if it's worth the trouble. From a comfort perfective, I will measure the temps, likely proving you are correct that it is not a problem as I was fearing. As to whether it is something I may want to do (raise up the unit a few inches), now that my mind is going in that direction, I do believe that I prefer it higher anyway for viewing, loading and particularly cooking on the top. As I enjoy backpacking in the White Mountains and kayak camping, I enjoy cooking in a privitive way for the fun of it whenever I can. Again, thank you for your help. It is much appreciated.
 
We just installed a mansfield..... nice stove and all but I am totally blown away with the amount of heat under the stove on the tiles .and to have no r value requirements s really (which used to be 1.00 R value in a n old manual )is making me really uncomfortable ..even in our crawlspace we took the insulation out and with a very small burn the heat was present underneath .
.So I am a bit concerned during the hot burn time we may have some issues ..

Everyone is saying that I am worrying to much..but had an attic fire last year because was told this and that was not needed from a certified installer (wrong )......and could see over the years of burning ,from where the stovepipe goes through the ceiling (thimble )?into the attic along the ceiling about 5f out there was charring......

We are waiting for them to come and check the heat under stove with a proper Ir therm...but aren't rushing thats for sure ....
I know they think I' being paranoid but not being able to touch under the stove is a concern ..almost cost our lives once ,,rightfully don;t want it to happen again ...
Anyone else having this issue and why dont they have a shield for underneath this particular stove ...would make it so much easier ...or better r value rating

Also does anyone know if a blower would make a difference
 
Assuming your stove is installed to manufacture spec., you might want to consider fabricating your own radiant heat shield. The ending to my original problem of all that radiant heat pouring out of my stove's window into my floor was a simple heat shield that effectively blocked the downward directed heat. It happened to work flawlessly throughout the entire winter...and I burned about 3-4 days a week consistently. You can do a temporary test piece to ascertain the effectiveness in your installation. A blower will cool the surfaces slightly and move heated air away from the stove but will not stop the transmission of radiant heat into the tiles as such.

Eric

Buy the way...I took a vacation away from the site in summer and it is good to be back again!
 
zooter said:
We just installed a mansfield..... nice stove and all but I am totally blown away with the amount of heat under the stove on the tiles .and to have no r value requirements s really (which used to be 1.00 R value in a n old manual )is making me really uncomfortable ..even in our crawlspace we took the insulation out and with a very small burn the heat was present underneath .
.So I am a bit concerned during the hot burn time we may have some issues ..

Everyone is saying that I am worrying to much..but had an attic fire last year because was told this and that was not needed from a certified installer (wrong )......and could see over the years of burning ,from where the stovepipe goes through the ceiling (thimble )?into the attic along the ceiling about 5f out there was charring......

We are waiting for them to come and check the heat under stove with a proper Ir therm...but aren't rushing thats for sure ....
I know they think I' being paranoid but not being able to touch under the stove is a concern ..almost cost our lives once ,,rightfully don;t want it to happen again ...
Anyone else having this issue and why dont they have a shield for underneath this particular stove ...would make it so much easier ...or better r value rating

Also does anyone know if a blower would make a difference

Is there anything keeping you from beefing up the existing hearth if you truly are concerned . . . my stove only required ember protection but I went a step beyond the minimum requirement . . . and sleep easy at night.

Not sure if the blower would help . . . perhaps installing or fabricating a heat shield for the base might also be do-able.
 
Well we have gotten a heat shield made up of 20 gauge galvinized sheet metal and there is not a lot of room under the stove under the ash...pan Like one inch go to 21/2 then to about 6 further back but have air space above it to bottom of stove and under it to tile ..

Seems to be working well ,I am quite amazed that its not getting hot on the top of it (wierd to me ) I am just a gal though and not sure what really is supposed to be happening ,,,My concern is that it may start to over heat the stove itself ..Has soapstone and cast iron underneath .....So my thoughts were "ok why dont they have a heat shield availbale for the underside of stove ..Reason)cuz maybe it will get to hot and over heat ??as I think they have one for the Homestead???and they do for the back
And am noticing its pushing more heat out the sides and is hotter on the cast under and the ash pan is hotter now??///Is this normal ....I'm afraid I do not know much about this type of stuff haha..being a gal and all( JKid)......and would love some insight ....

The other post I had made was that I cannot find any micore around our area as we live in a rural community In the West Kootenay area of British Coumbia Canada Called Trail and its pretty Rural and not many places to shop .....and to get stuff sent in is hardly worth the money would be more to ship than to buy (well sometimes )

There's is another product I have been told will be great called.... NRG Green Board and not sure what the R value is ..I still its wise to beef up the Hearth as its just a gut thing and its Hot Not even stoked full yet ......if any one has the R value of it lease let me know..Its very thin which would be awesome and can tile right over it
 
Well we have gotten a heat shield made up of 20 gauge galvinized sheet metal and there is not a lot of room under the stove under the ash...pan Like one inch go to 21/2 then to about 6 further back but have air space above it to bottom of stove and under it to tile ..

Seems to be working well ,I am quite amazed that its not getting hot on the top of it (wierd to me ) I am just a gal though and not sure what really is supposed to be happening ,,,My concern is that it may start to over heat the stove itself ..Has soapstone and cast iron underneath .....So my thoughts were "ok why dont they have a heat shield availbale for the underside of stove ..Reason)cuz maybe it will get to hot and over heat ??as I think they have one for the Homestead???and they do for the back
And am noticing its pushing more heat out the sides and is hotter on the cast under and the ash pan is hotter now??///Is this normal ....I'm afraid I do not know much about this type of stuff haha..being a gal and all( JKid)......and would love some insight ....

The other post I had made was that I cannot find any micore around our area as we live in a rural community In the West Kootenay area of British Coumbia Canada Called Trail and its pretty Rural and not many places to shop .....and to get stuff sent in is hardly worth the money would be more to ship than to buy (well sometimes )

There's is another product I have been told will be great called.... NRG Green Board and not sure what the R value is ..I still its wise to beef up the Hearth as its just a gut thing and its Hot Not even stoked full yet ......if any one has the R value of it lease let me know..Its very thin which would be awesome and can tile right over it thanks zooter
 
Well we have gotten a heat shield made up of 20 gauge galvinized sheet metal and there is not a lot of room under the stove under the ash...pan Like one inch go to 21/2 then to about 6 further back but have air space above it to bottom of stove and under it to tile ..

Seems to be working well ,I am quite amazed that its not getting hot on the top of it (wierd to me ) I am just a gal though and not sure what really is supposed to be happening ,,,My concern is that it may start to over heat the stove itself ..Has soapstone and cast iron underneath .....So my thoughts were "ok why dont they have a heat shield availbale for the underside of stove ..Reason)cuz maybe it will get to hot and over heat ??as I think they have one for the Homestead???and they do for the back
And am noticing its pushing more heat out the sides and is hotter on the cast under and the ash pan is hotter now??///Is this normal ....I'm afraid I do not know much about this type of stuff haha..being a gal and all( JKid)......and would love some insight ....

The other post I had made was that I cannot find any micore around our area as we live in a rural community In the West Kootenay area of British Coumbia Canada Called Trail and its pretty Rural and not many places to shop .....and to get stuff sent in is hardly worth the money would be more to ship than to buy (well sometimes )

There's is another product I have been told will be great called.... NRG Green Board and not sure what the R value is ..I still its wise to beef up the Hearth as its just a gut thing and its Hot Not even stoked full yet ......if any one has the R value of it lease let me know..Its very thin which would be awesome and can tile right over it thanks zooter

(broken link removed to http://nrggreenboard.com/NRG_Greenboard_Technical_Specification_Booklet_Version_6.pdf) good website info

found the r value of amazing I think 40 mm1.04 60mm1.56 75mm1.95 100mm2.60
 
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