Hearth extension has separated from the fireplace

[Willkellysims]

what begreen said would be easiest solution.but you also said it's not safe to burn with could you explain?

When we bought the home, the inspection report said that there were cracks in the liner. In negotiation we thought we had it worked out and agreed seller would repair fireplace per inspection report. We did not have the "repair" spelled out in the contract...just that the seller would "Repair fireplace." He repaired the chimney cap that was also mentioned in the inspection report. That is it. We did not know that your supposed to double check the seller did everything prior to closing (our first time buying)
We bought the house in July. Come winter I called to have a chimney guy come out to clean the fireplace (not knowing if it had been done I wanted to be safe) and the guy asked if I was really going to be using the fireplace, and pointed out the cracks in the liner and also said it appeared that at one time there was a fire in the chimney. He recommended that we NOT use it and contact the seller and relator. We tried, and it became such a big issue, we decided to chalk this up to a very expensive learning curve and move forward taking the advice that it's not safe to use at all.

 

[Willkellysims]

The underside hearth support looks wrong. It looks like it's depending on cantilevered blocks. Some are not even attached to anything.

I would remove the entire hearth step and then decide on a couple options. One would be to rebuild with much better support. Bring in a pro-mason for this, at least for a consultation. But another option would be to lower the hearth to floor level with a different covering than brick. Think a large piece of bluestone or it could be insulated with a layer of cement board and tiled. Then, consider putting a freestanding, rear-exit stove on this new lowered hearth for some real heat and lasting warmth.

That is exactly what we thought and why we posted here. You are correct the blocks are NOT ATTACHED to anything. That board is literally just nailed to the joists going across. We knew if nothing else we needed something to help support that.

 

[begreen]

I would speak to the realtor. And I would get a certified sweeps written assessment of the current chimney and hearth. We have some strict disclosure laws in this state and regs behind them.

The remedy for situation sounds tailor made for a freestanding hearth fireplace with a stainless steel liner in the chimney. That will give you safe heat with a nice fire view. Cost will be about $5-6000 to have this professionally done. But it could be DIY if you are good with tools, don't mind a little dirtywork and can measure. Or have the hearth rebuilt with proper support. I'm not a mason so just guessing at the price, maybe $2000 or less?

 

[Willkellysims]

I would rip out the old separate hearth, install durarock and tile in its old place, if you put an insert in the fireplace, then the tile in front could act as the ember shield. its the cheap and easy fix, plus you then could remove the support underneath.

I like this idea alot

 

[jatoxico]

When we bought the home, the inspection report said that there were cracks in the liner. In negotiation we thought we had it worked out and agreed seller would repair fireplace per inspection report. We did not have the "repair" spelled out in the contract...just that the seller would "Repair fireplace." He repaired the chimney cap that was also mentioned in the inspection report. That is it. We did not know that your supposed to double check the seller did everything prior to closing (our first time buying)
We bought the house in July. Come winter I called to have a chimney guy come out to clean the fireplace (not knowing if it had been done I wanted to be safe) and the guy asked if I was really going to be using the fireplace, and pointed out the cracks in the liner and also said it appeared that at one time there was a fire in the chimney. He recommended that we NOT use it and contact the seller and relator. We tried, and it became such a big issue, we decided to chalk this up to a very expensive learning curve and move forward taking the advice that it's not safe to use at all.

That's what I was wondering. Although based on your pics I tend to agree that the hearth is moving independent of the fireplace itself, but considering there is movement, have someone out to make sure the cracks are not from settling. As I'm sure you were told those cracks could touch off the framing of the house if the fireplace was used. Proper inspection and repair is needed.

 

[Willkellysims]

Thank you all very very much for being so helpful and patient with me. With the confirmation that the support underneath is not correct at all, I feel much better just removing the hearth piece and laying down tile or something to that extent of endless options.

 

[TheRambler]

Ok, here is the way I see it. You have a few options. First off, I agree that the hearth extension is not properly supported which appears to be the root cause of the problem. Option 1) Completely rip it out as already mentioned and rebuild to your liking. Especially if you want to put in a freestanding stove. Option 2) rip out and rebuild to suit and put in a insert or leave it as a fireplace. Option 3) Add additional support in the basement for the hearth, and repair as already described.

You will need to have tiles in chimney repaired or a chimney liner put in. All of this really depends on what your end goal is.

Ripping out and rebuilding at floor level isn't very difficult, the demo would be the hardest part. I think no matter which way you go that you should add more support below. Make a big |____| out of 2x6 and support the bock and the doubled floor joist with 2 jacks, one on each end.

I don't think the hearth piece needs to be rebuilt necessarily, just needs to be reattached and properly supported. This all depends on what your end goal is though.

 

[TheRambler]

Oh, and don't go crazy cranking on the jacks or you will cause more problems

 

[Willkellysims]

That's what I was wondering. Although based on your pics I tend to agree that the hearth is moving independent of the fireplace itself, but considering there is movement, have someone out to make sure the cracks are not from settling. As I'm sure you were told those cracks could touch off the framing of the house if the fireplace was used. Proper inspection and repair is needed.

Getting someone out to inspect is now on my to do list for tomorrow. Thanks!

 

[Willkellysims]

Oh, and don't go crazy cranking on the jacks or you will cause more problems

That is very helpful thank you.

 

[begreen]

The new hearth should be solid so that there is no flexing possible. I would consider making it with a 1 1/8" plywood base for stiffness, then cement board then tile, stone or brick. The depth and R value of the hearth will depend on whether an insert or a freestander is installed.

An insert may be less expensive and less intrusive if that is preferable. It would require a shallower, hearth. The rule is that it must extend 16" beyond the insert door.

 

[TheRambler]

Good luck finding someone to come inspect it honestly. I went through a very similar situation with my first house. Masons, sweeps, and other construction trades will give you random advice
(its not really what they do), what you really need is a structural engineer... and that will usually cost $500 for an hour.

The best advice I can give you is just to add more than adequate support. What you already did is probably sufficient, but I would just get another $30 jack and some 2x6 and support it from both sides and then you can build however you desire and put any kind of stove there without worry. In my opinion the fix is easy, and will be the same informtion a $500 inspection will get you.

 

[jatoxico]

Good luck finding someone to come inspect it honestly. I went through a very similar situation with my first house. Masons, sweeps, and other construction trades will give you random advice
(its not really what they do), what you really need is a structural engineer... and that will usually cost $500 for an hour.

The best advice I can give you is just to add more than adequate support. What you already did is probably sufficient, but I would just get another $30 jack and some 2x6 and support it from both sides and then you can build however you desire and put any kind of stove there without worry. In my opinion the fix is easy, and will be the same informtion a $500 inspection will get you.

More interested in the nature and extent of the tile lining. The hearth should be an easy fix.

 

[begreen]

Good luck finding someone to come inspect it honestly. I went through a very similar situation with my first house. Masons, sweeps, and other construction trades will give you random advice
(its not really what they do), what you really need is a structural engineer... and that will usually cost $500 for an hour.

The best advice I can give you is just to add more than adequate support. What you already did is probably sufficient, but I would just get another $30 jack and some 2x6 and support it from both sides and then you can build however you desire and put any kind of stove there without worry. In my opinion the fix is easy, and will be the same informtion a $500 inspection will get you.

Try to get a well referenced pro for any work. FWIW, we had a structural engineer inspect our house. He told us we had wood on the ground in the front foundation which was good to know. But he said nothing about the fireplace chimney being unlined with failing mortar and two takeoffs, one with wood covering it, nor the terrible wiring, nor the horrific installation of the propane furnace. The back side of an exhaust elbow was completely missing.

 

[TheRambler]

Thats the thing with inspections, every thing has its own specialist. Plumber or hvac guy for all piping and venting of different appliances, sweep for the chimney internals and minor other work etc.

A general home inspector, a good one, can identify most issues. But when it comes to something specific like structural integrity of something almost everyone will say "hands off, my license doesnt cover that and i wont take on any liability inspecting it" at least thats what i ran into when i had a structural issue with my chimney in my last house.

 

[Willkellysims]

Are you sure? It appears to be cut in and going below the floor on the front edge.I suspect the hearth is relying on the cantilevered cement blocks for support, but they don't go all the way across so the front edge is unsupported.

View attachment 149135

I am pretty sure it doesn't, however I could be wrong. We think the weight of the hearth separating from the fireplace has caused the floor to sag, we were afraid the thing would fall through the floor which is what prompted us to get the Jack underneath in the basement since there was nothing literally supporting it. We also had a floating floor (laminate is maybe the right word) installed and they just cut around the heart/fireplace since we were not sure what really to do with it and that may also be why it looks like it's going through the floor.

 

[Willkellysims]

Try to get a well referenced pro for any work. FWIW, we had a structural engineer inspect our house. He told us we had wood on the ground in the front foundation which was good to know. But he said nothing about the fireplace chimney being unlined with failing mortar and two takeoffs, one with wood covering it, nor the terrible wiring, nor the horrific installation of the propane furnace. The back side of an exhaust elbow was completely missing.

Oh man!! I can only pray stuff like that doesn't start coming up!!

 

[begreen]

And then there was the buried and undisclosed oil tank....

 

[TheRambler]

Ahh, the joys of home ownership!

 

[Willkellysims]

The new hearth should be solid so that there is no flexing possible. I would consider making it with a 1 1/8" plywood base for stiffness, then cement board then tile, stone or brick. The depth and R value of the hearth will depend on whether an insert or a freestander is installed.

An insert may be less expensive and less intrusive if that is preferable. It would require a shallower, hearth. The rule is that it must extend 16" beyond the insert door.

This is all really very helpful. Thank you!!

 

[Willkellysims]

And then there was the buried and undisclosed oil tank....

Oh holy mother!! I might have cried.

 

[begreen]

Life in the country. Rules get a bit sloppy, especially when no one is watching crappy workmanship. The furnace guy had to be drunk when he installed it. Fortunately I caught that error pretty quickly. I arrived home from work 3 days after we had moved in. Couldn't understand why the furnace was running non-stop. There was a strong north wind coming down the sound. I went upstairs and found the knee wall space doors had blown wide open. Canadian air was blowing right through the house. Thank god I had a roll of duct tape on hand. I went down to inspect the furnace found the exhaust leak, taped it over with metal tape. Then noticed the plenum didn't fit the furnace. There was a 1.5" open gap at the back with warm air just blowing out into the crawlspace. I used most of the roll of metal tape on that temp fix.

 

[Willkellysims]

Ahh, the joys of home ownership!

We are so glad to be home owners, and we even took the class about how to be one...but it didn't teach any of the stuff we are going through!!

 

[begreen]

It usually gets better and more fun. This was our place 12 yrs later.

 

[tinman1]

I retook some pictures now that it is brighter, hopefully these will be better for you. All the stuff on the hearth is the old mortar that has crumbled and is falling out. We even pulled out newspaper that was wadded up and stuck to this sandy mortar stuff as though someone had stuffed newspaper down in the hole then covered with the stuff that is crumbling. HA newspaper is dated July 8 1989. View attachment 149131 View attachment 149132 View attachment 149133

It seems to me that when they built the extension maybe it was pitching forward and at the very front under the sub floor there is no support beam ? Also noticed they used a lot of bricks , its fully bricked & I think what would be a better build would be to make a u shape extension and finish off with a slab of stone ( blue stone ) this way its hollow on the inside ( much less weight. Personally I would remove it if its not level.