Hearthstone Manchester 8362 side door gasket issue or something else?

[velocity1]

HI All,
I have noticed from time to time Im getting some faint smells of smoke in the house from my stove. Typically its upon reload once it gets going and is gassing off. I went over to my stove when i noticed the smell and if i put my nose near the side door handle I can smell smoke. I made sure there was nothing from the front door to rule that out and its clearly from the side door only. I noticed that the top of the gasket made it appear from the factory they didn't align the door right, it was a little skewed. So i ordered a new gasket and re-aligned the door thinking that would fix it. That didnt work and I still smell smoke from time to time. Attached is a picture of the gasket, the side door is a tongue and groove style. In the area i circled red which is along the side of the door you can see that section is not really compressing when the door closes (theres no groove mark pressed in like the rest of the gasket).

My question is can a side door gasket leak so it causes smoke when the stove is burning hot or should a leaking gasket only ever allow more air into the firebox but not the other way around? Basically is it possible there is a draft issue pushing through a weak spot in the gasket? For my setup the stove vents into an exterior chimney, the straight run of liner from the tee up is 12/13 feet and then from the tee into the house down to the stove is another 5 feet. So in total about 17ish feet of total run. Thanks

 

[neverstop]

HI All,
I have noticed from time to time Im getting some faint smells of smoke in the house from my stove. Typically its upon reload once it gets going and is gassing off. I went over to my stove when i noticed the smell and if i put my nose near the side door handle I can smell smoke. I made sure there was nothing from the front door to rule that out and its clearly from the side door only. I noticed that the top of the gasket made it appear from the factory they didn't align the door right, it was a little skewed. So i ordered a new gasket and re-aligned the door thinking that would fix it. That didnt work and I still smell smoke from time to time. Attached is a picture of the gasket, the side door is a tongue and groove style. In the area i circled red which is along the side of the door you can see that section is not really compressing when the door closes (theres no groove mark pressed in like the rest of the gasket).

My question is can a side door gasket leak so it causes smoke when the stove is burning hot or should a leaking gasket only ever allow more air into the firebox but not the other way around? Basically is it possible there is a draft issue pushing through a weak spot in the gasket? For my setup the stove vents into an exterior chimney, the straight run of liner from the tee up is 12/13 feet and then from the tee into the house down to the stove is another 5 feet. So in total about 17ish feet of total run. Thanks

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once you have the stove closed up it's highly doubtful smoke is leaking out. more than likely you may be getting smoke roll-out during reload and then smell it after it permeates away from the stove? unless your chimney has a blockage, but you would notice that in reduced performance.

My Shelburne seems to expel trapped moisture from the soapstone throughout the season. I don't necessarily use it 24/7, so maybe moisture is being absorbed when not in use. But I've used the stove maybe 15+ days so far this year and even the last time I still have some liquid dripping from the bottom of the tie rods. That liquid has a BBQ/smoke scent to it.

 

[velocity1]

once you have the stove closed up it's highly doubtful smoke is leaking out. more than likely you may be getting smoke roll-out during reload and then smell it after it permeates away from the stove? unless your chimney has a blockage, but you would notice that in reduced performance.

My Shelburne seems to expel trapped moisture from the soapstone throughout the season. I don't necessarily use it 24/7, so maybe moisture is being absorbed when not in use. But I've used the stove maybe 15+ days so far this year and even the last time I still have some liquid dripping from the bottom of the tie rods. That liquid has a BBQ/smoke scent to it.

Thanks, no blockages as i just swept everything out and is clean as a whistle. Wouldnt roll out be the same thing as smoke leaking out??

 

[neverstop]

Thanks, no blockages as i just swept everything out and is clean as a whistle. Wouldnt roll out be the same thing as smoke leaking out??

Smoke roll-out is a draft/negative pressure/technique issue. With the stove closed up you have a relatively small amount of air being pulled in/exhausted out of the system. With a door open you have a much larger amount of air being pulled in/needing to be exhausted out of the system. When you have a gasket leak it results in additional air being pulled into the stove. You'd need to have a positive pressure scenario in order to push smoke out of any "air gaps" in the stove; this is what occurs during back-puff events.

Does the stove pipe use a 90 degree elbow to transition to the horizontal section? How long is the horizontal section and does it have at least 1/4" rise per foot? The minimum chimney height is stated as 15' off the floor. It sounds like you have ~19' (17' +~2' from the floor). With a 90, a tee, and a horizontal section you may need more than 19' off the floor to not have smoke rollout during reloads (if that's actually the problem).

Do you use any tools to push around logs/coals? I've noticed that if i expose my poker/shovel to hot coals for extended periods of time it can produce "smoke like" smells after I take it out and put it on the rack. That takes awhile to permeate from the stove area.

 

[velocity1]

Smoke roll-out is a draft/negative pressure/technique issue. With the stove closed up you have a relatively small amount of air being pulled in/exhausted out of the system. With a door open you have a much larger amount of air being pulled in/needing to be exhausted out of the system. When you have a gasket leak it results in additional air being pulled into the stove. You'd need to have a positive pressure scenario in order to push smoke out of any "air gaps" in the stove; this is what occurs during back-puff events.

Does the stove pipe use a 90 degree elbow to transition to the horizontal section? How long is the horizontal section and does it have at least 1/4" rise per foot? The minimum chimney height is stated as 15' off the floor. It sounds like you have ~19' (17' +~2' from the floor). With a 90, a tee, and a horizontal section you may need more than 19' off the floor to not have smoke rollout during reloads (if that's actually the problem).

Do you use any tools to push around logs/coals? I've noticed that if i expose my poker/shovel to hot coals for extended periods of time it can produce "smoke like" smells after I take it out and put it on the rack. That takes awhile to permeate from the stove area.

Heres a crappy drawing of my setup lol but yeah there is rise in the horizontal section which is about 3' long. The thing with the smoke smell is that it could be burning for an hour on a new load and Ill walk over to it and smell smoke from the side door, that whole hour the door was never opened and i didnt poke anything. thats what im finding odd, i can understand the scenarios you noted about poking the wood around but thats not the case.

 

[neverstop]

Heres a crappy drawing of my setup lol but yeah there is rise in the horizontal section which is about 3' long. The thing with the smoke smell is that it could be burning for an hour on a new load and Ill walk over to it and smell smoke from the side door, that whole hour the door was never opened and i didnt poke anything. thats what im finding odd, i can understand the scenarios you noted about poking the wood around but thats not the case.

View attachment 304230

Might be close to minimum specifications based on that, but if you don't get smoke rollout on reload seems to be sufficient.

Honestly, I'd guess it's moisture from the soapstone dripping down the tie rods. Next time you smell it go over to the stove and look at the ends of the tie rods/nuts/washers underneath the stove. I bet you'll see liquid or dried black liquid on one or more of them, or spots of the floor from where it drips.

I noticed something similar last year after "X" amount of time into a burn. If I sniffed around the stove the smell permeated all over. I've been looking this year and noticed liquid. Wiping it with a towel and smelling it; it's definitely the smell I've been smelling. Like I said, it's slightly "sweeter" than a pure smoke smell.

 

[bholler]

Heres a crappy drawing of my setup lol but yeah there is rise in the horizontal section which is about 3' long. The thing with the smoke smell is that it could be burning for an hour on a new load and Ill walk over to it and smell smoke from the side door, that whole hour the door was never opened and i didnt poke anything. thats what im finding odd, i can understand the scenarios you noted about poking the wood around but thats not the case.

View attachment 304230

Yes you are definitely on the short side when you factor in the 2 90 degree bends. It could definitely be weak draft

 

[velocity1]

Might be close to minimum specifications based on that, but if you don't get smoke rollout on reload seems to be sufficient.

Honestly, I'd guess it's moisture from the soapstone dripping down the tie rods. Next time you smell it go over to the stove and look at the ends of the tie rods/nuts/washers underneath the stove. I bet you'll see liquid or dried black liquid on one or more of them, or spots of the floor from where it drips.

I noticed something similar last year after "X" amount of time into a burn. If I sniffed around the stove the smell permeated all over. I've been looking this year and noticed liquid. Wiping it with a towel and smelling it; it's definitely the smell I've been smelling. Like I said, it's slightly "sweeter" than a pure smoke smell.

Underneath my stove on the outside there are no tie rods or anything, just the stove casting so no area really for anything to leak/drip?? The smoke I'm smelling is not sweet, just smells like regular smoke like when I open the door and get some roll out if i open it too fast.

 

[velocity1]

Yes you are definitely on the short side when you factor in the 2 90 degree bends. It could definitely be weak draft

Last year i had put an extension on the top of my chimney, added about another 18". I was hoping that would prevent any issues relating to drafting but sounds like that wasn't enough then. We havent had a real good cold day yet so im curious if I will still get the smell on those days or not with draft being better with lower temps but ill keep an eye on it. Otherwise looks like I will have to figure out how to extend my chimney further, most likely by adding more bricks. Aesthetically will be the better route although more costly.

 

[velocity1]

Yes you are definitely on the short side when you factor in the 2 90 degree bends. It could definitely be weak draft

Bholler forgot to ask even when the stove is burning good and hot if the draft is weak it could still push smoke out of the stove into the room?

 

[bholler]

Bholler forgot to ask even when the stove is burning good and hot if the draft is weak it could still push smoke out of the stove into the room?

Possibly

 

[velocity1]

Possibly

Crud, ok thanks

 

[begreen]

Crud, ok thanks

Would it be possible to change the 90º turn heading to the chimney thimble to a pair of 45º elbows with an offset. That will help a bit.

Also, is there an outside air supply to the stove? If not, does opening a nearby window 1" make any difference in stove performance or reducing smoke rollout?

 

[velocity1]

Would it be possible to change the 90º turn heading to the chimney thimble to a pair of 45º elbows with an offset. That will help a bit.

Also, is there an outside air supply to the stove? If not, does opening a nearby window 1" make any difference in stove performance or reducing smoke rollout?

I could change the stove pipe set up. How would i go about incorporating the pair of 45's in this instance? put one as close as i can to the brickwall and then the other about halfway between the stove and wall? pic of current set up

 

[velocity1]

I have been having a window open about 7 feet from the stove, no difference in performance or the smoke smell

 

[begreen]

I could change the stove pipe set up. How would i go about incorporating the pair of 45's in this instance? put one as close as i can to the brickwall and then the other about halfway between the stove and wall? pic of current set up

View attachment 304247

Yes, a 45 elbow connected to the thimble, then a short offset, and then a second 45 tied to the vertical coming off the flue collar.

 

[velocity1]

Yes, a 45 elbow connected to the thimble, then a short offset, and then a second 45 tied to the vertical coming off the flue collar.

View attachment 304384

Thanks, i may give that a shot for now and see if it helps. On a side note today when i opened the side door i noticed towards the top and side it appears wet in spots, see pic. is this typical and is that just creosote? Almost wonder if that’s what’s burning off weeping through the door gasket causing the smell?

 

[velocity1]

Hi All,
So just more details on my possible draft issue. After a couple of first fires a few weeks ago my CO detector went off for the first time in 2 seasons of having this stove. The reading was around 60 ppm. The alarm sounded when it was on the warmer side outside, around 50 degrees F, and the stove had been on coals for a few hours during the day. I had opened the windows, removed the coals and the house was fine shortly there after reading at 0. I kind of chaulked this up to a fluke and was hoping just a one time deal. On occasion now that i have been burning more I check my CO detector as it tells you the PPM if you hit the test button. I usually check when its actively burning wood and in the mornings when its on coals, its been at 0 for a couple weeks now until today. I knew it would be warmer during the day today so I just threw in a smaller load of wood this morning and been riding on coals all day. I was going to just let the stove die out because rest of week will be on the warmer side so i wasnt planning on running it. Currently in the 40's out. I checked the CO and its reading 47 right now so I dumped the coals and opened the windows again. My question is I think this basically solidifies my draft issue, on warmer days its really collapsing and on colder days when burning off its back drafting a bit causing the smoke smell. My question is I was going to order a pair of 45's to replace my 90 elbow but now also throwing in the CO issue could replacing the 90 bend really make or break the difference? Just dont want to continue throwing money at possible solutions if at the end of the day I should just focus on extending my chimney. Also fyi stove is on the first floor of a Cape, basement CO and 2nd floor CO all noted 0. It was only the CO on the first floor 25 feet away that had the reading. I already ruled out my water heater as thats the only other thing that could cause CO. Thanks

 

[neverstop]

Hi All,
So just more details on my possible draft issue. After a couple of first fires a few weeks ago my CO detector went off for the first time in 2 seasons of having this stove. The reading was around 60 ppm. The alarm sounded when it was on the warmer side outside, around 50 degrees F, and the stove had been on coals for a few hours during the day. I had opened the windows, removed the coals and the house was fine shortly there after reading at 0. I kind of chaulked this up to a fluke and was hoping just a one time deal. On occasion now that i have been burning more I check my CO detector as it tells you the PPM if you hit the test button. I usually check when its actively burning wood and in the mornings when its on coals, its been at 0 for a couple weeks now until today. I knew it would be warmer during the day today so I just threw in a smaller load of wood this morning and been riding on coals all day. I was going to just let the stove die out because rest of week will be on the warmer side so i wasnt planning on running it. Currently in the 40's out. I checked the CO and its reading 47 right now so I dumped the coals and opened the windows again. My question is I think this basically solidifies my draft issue, on warmer days its really collapsing and on colder days when burning off its back drafting a bit causing the smoke smell. My question is I was going to order a pair of 45's to replace my 90 elbow but now also throwing in the CO issue could replacing the 90 bend really make or break the difference? Just dont want to continue throwing money at possible solutions if at the end of the day I should just focus on extending my chimney. Also fyi stove is on the first floor of a Cape, basement CO and 2nd floor CO all noted 0. It was only the CO on the first floor 25 feet away that had the reading. I already ruled out my water heater as thats the only other thing that could cause CO. Thanks

is the liner insulated?

 

[velocity1]

is the liner insulated?

Yeah, i have a narrow flute in the chimney (9x13 if i recall right) so they stuffed it with that ceramic blanket material

 

[neverstop]

Yeah, i have a narrow flute in the chimney (9x13 if i recall right) so they stuffed it with that ceramic blanket material

they stuffed ceramic blanket in the flue? or the liner was purposefully wrapped with insulation and attached to the liner?

 

[velocity1]

they stuffed ceramic blanket in the flue? or the liner was purposefully wrapped with insulation and attached to the liner?

I just looked back at my email with the install company and the flute is actually 8x13. They said that it was too narrow to wrap the 6" liner so they could only stuff in the blanket

 

[neverstop]

I just looked back at my email with the install company and the flute is actually 8x13. They said that it was too narrow to wrap the 6" liner so they could only stuff in the blanket

Sounds like the liner isn't insulated. I'm not sure where they "stuffed" it because if an insulated liner wouldn't fit then they didn't have much room to stuff it. They'd also only be able to "stuff" insulation some distance from the access points. So maybe there is some insulation by the thimble/tee and up at the top.

External chimneys are more susceptible to loss of draft when the liner isn't wrapped compared to internal chimneys because they are more exposed to the weather. Based on your recent experience it seems like a possible cause of the CO readings were due to a loss/reverse draft situation. Factors are a coaling stove (low flue temps, lower volume of air being pulled up chimney), uninsulated external chimney, and rising outdoor temperatures (50F).

 

[velocity1]

they insulated basically on the open ends since the flute is 13” wide, see pic. Essentially about half of the liner is insulted i guess. There’s enough room, i think, that they could have pushed the blanket down each of the 2 sides? i have a camera probe so i can stick that up the chimney clean out door to see if i can see up past the tee to see if the blanket runs the full length. If it doesn’t maybe that gives me an arguing point with the install company?

 

[neverstop]

they insulated basically on the open ends since the flute is 13” wide, see pic. Essentially about half of the liner is insulted i guess. There’s enough room, i think, that they could have pushed the blanket down each of the 2 sides? i have a camera probe so i can stick that up the chimney clean out door to see if i can see up past the tee to see if the blanket runs the full length. If it doesn’t maybe that gives me an arguing point with the install company?

View attachment 304694

I'm fairly confident that the insulation is only packed as far as the installer could reach by arm. Even less by the tee because they would have worse access. Even if they were able to shove insulation down the short edge sides it wouldn't be tightly wrapped to the liner so there would be air flow.

Even if you see insulation at the tee that doesn't mean that it runs the full length.