Heat Stalls in stairway

[NYBurner]

I have an enviro in a finished basement and we have been having trouble getting the air to flow up into the house. This picture is not my house but similar to how open our basement entry is.....there is no reason it shouldnt be rising. Ironically, as you come from the basement up you feel a literal temp transition as youre head crests the floor level (warm warm warm and notcieably cold). It seems to me if I lean over the railing I should feel waves of heat rolling up.....but nothing.
So this season we installed the OAK hoping that would help the sitaution. We finally had an opportunity for a test fire and NO improvement. Ive put fans top and bottom of the stairs, pushing and pulling hot or cold every which direction with very little difference.
I understand the idea of feed and returns, but with a completely open doorway/stairway how is it possible the air movement is completely stalled?? Its literally about a 15-20 deg temp difference and walking down the stairway is like stepping into a nice warm bath. Any ideas?? (Also I am not cutting in huge floor registers...as tempting as it is my wife would skin me).

 

[Rossco]

Sounds like you have pressure differential problems.

If you force cool air down the warm will be pushed up.

 

[jb6l6gc]

Do you have a forced air system at all in the house. I have a similar issue with my fireplace I find if I run the circulation fan it helps distribute the heat throughout the house.

 

[redbill]

I have that same problem. Pretty sure I'm going to have to put a register blowing down onto the stove. The heat naturally goes up the stairs but then stalls, I hope pushing the cold air down back to the stove will pull the hot air with it from the top of the stairs.

 

[Daveman]

I actually crack open a window that's on the basement stairwell landing an inch or so, and run a ceiling fan in reverse on the top floor of the house. That cold outside air really helps push the hot air up the stairs (you can feel the hot air blasting up, and the cold air icing your toes on the stairs), as well as helping to keep me from cooking out of the rec room at the same time. Each house is unique in airflow though, and I readily admit I got lucky with the heat distribution....I agree the trick is to push the cold air down to the stove, and only had OK success until I added fresh air via the window...even the wife occasionally complains its too hot in the upstairs living room now

 

[wildbill]

That's what I've been doing, ceiling fan upstairs in rev with a fan blowing next to the stove facing to the stair well, moves the air around, it takes awhile for the warm air to come up so I get it going early in the afternoon so it has time to get up there before it starts to cool off at night

 

[Wilbur Feral]

Try a variety of these ideas to see what works. If your ducts are sealed well, running the forced air HVAC system fan might work, but only if you don't lose more heat than you gain through leaks.

 

[bogieb]

I had the same issue with my house, although my stairway is not as open as yours. I cut holes in my floors , put in register fans (tried up, down and at different configurations), used ceiling fans on main floor, tried fans up/down for the stairs etc. I did get it to where the heat would keep the living room, kitchen and office anywhere from 62 to 70 (depending on outside temp), but the bedrooms would get as cold at 45*. The basement would be in the mid to high 80's. If I turned on the boiler to get the bedroom warmer, I could feel the heat from the basement suddenly trying to join the warm air upstairs (thanks, AFTER I had gotten it warm). Once I turned off the boiler the upstairs would start cooling off and the warm air would quit rising - I just couldn't keep a convection going.

I spent one winter literally sleeping on the couch because the bedroom was way too cold. The first year the house didn't have very good insulation (none in basement), no vapor barrier anywhere, and there were plenty of air leaks around basement windows and doors. The next year I tightened it up (new windows, new insulation, vapor barrier and sheetrock upstairs; spray foam for cracks in basement and rigid foam on foundation) and I still had the same issue - it was a little better, but not much.

I finally gave up and put a smaller stove on my main floor. Not saying you won't get it figured out for your set up, I'm just saying that some houses don't establish the air currents for some reason.

 

[tiger]

So many new homes have these multiple-story open foyers/stairwells; that's a lot of air to get moving. I was curious (well, my little 1-story house certainly does not need one) if there was a ceiling fan type with one above the other on the same axis. I just did a search for "coaxial ceiling fan" to no avail. I guess the closest might some like..

http://www.amazon.com/Yosemite-Home-Decor-TWIN-PEAKS/dp/B002P68356

... mounted to the wall oriented vertically, at 90 degrees to the intended direction.

 

[velvetfoot]

I get the same sensation of walking through a heat ceiling when I go up the stairs. The insert helps upstairs, no doubt, but there's a considerable difference. It might help to run the furnace fan, but we have baseboard hot water. For me it's a matter of running some electric space heaters where/when needed or letting the central heating do it's thing upstairs.

 

[NYBurner]

I have tried running the furnace blower (for DAYS straight) and it makes no difference at all. FYI the only info I found where that method actually had some effect. the guy plugged all his cold air returns and put a return duct near the stove to suck hot air in. That is more ducting the heat out and not solving the issue really.

I looked into it some more and found a lot of information regarding the 'stack effect' where the house pressurizes and essentially makes air transfer (and heat) difficult via natural convection of house air circulation movements. I believe this is referred to as negative house pressure....the solution is literally sucking in outside air into the house. This is also the cause of 'cold hearth syndrome' and problems with flue flow.

Cliff notes on Stack effect:
- Cold air is 'high pressure' and warm is 'low pressure' typically. ie...cold air displaces warm air. cold air is more dense.
- With stack effect the warm air naturally rises and creates a high pressure zone in the upper level of a home, and the displaced air creates a negative pressure zone below.

Homes that are too tight don't circulate the air it becomes stagnant and the home sits in constant negative pressure. (this is the main issue we try to avoid using the OAK). For those of us having this issue....and those who have solved the issue by cracking a lower level window, this somewhat proves my assumption and also why homes with BIG floor registers work so well heating with a stove. Our modern furnace gets rid of this being a 'heating/cooling' problem by forcing the air to various levels and locations.


Its supposed to be cool this weekend, so I can fire up the stove and try a couple of experiments. I am going to try cracking windows on various levels of the house, and see if we get air/heat movement up the stairway. If this is the issue, I am going to try and use a high CFM inline air handling unit hooked up to a couple existing ducts to either suck or blow air up/down depending on what I find this weekend. By doing it this way....I should get the benefit of an open floor register return (allowing my house to circulate air within itself) without cutting new holes and violating any fire codes. Plus I can put it back very easily any time with o permanent modification to the house.

Sorry for the book, just hoping to get some discussion and ideas going in case others are interested. Thanks for all of the info and ideas so far!

 

[kennyp2339]

My parents house is like that, you could definitely feel the difference in temps going up the stairs, I use to joke around and say one day a thunderstorm was going to form at the top of the stairs, or I would tell the dog to make sure his 4 paw drive works because it might be snowing at the top step.

 

[Rossco]

I overcame the positive - negative pressure problem by providing make up air in the basement. Supply fresh air to the back of the stove. The fans create a negative pressure scenario that kinda pressurizes the basment slighty forcing warm air up and forcing it out of the house.

Iam working on a return style system that will pull air out the hallway and deliver it to the back of the stove. The cool return air should be replaced by a wave of hot air coming up through the recently opened stair well. Well here's hoping.

 

[NYBurner]

Just an update so far…on the situation.
645pm - I cracked a window on the first floor and air was being sucked in from outside. Cracked a window in the basement and again air was being sucked in from outside. Cracked a window on 2nd floor and air was pushing out. Left 2nd floor windows cracked and basement. Closed first floor.

745pm - cracked first floor window to check and air is no longer gushing in steady. Noticeable difference in stairway coming up….no distinct heat 'layer'.

It seems we are combating the 'stack effect' as described online. I do not think leaving a window cracked all winter will be an efficient way to heat this winter.

Rossco - you have the same plan I did….I just wanted to verify what was going on in the house before I tried forced air ducting between floors. Its going to be tough to do this effectively I think.

 

[Rossco]

NYburner :: Credit to you for seeking a solution to your problem.

My gain was supplying cool outside air to the stove. The fans pull that air in and heat it. Fans will create a void of negative pressure that pulls air in regardless of ambient / internal differences.

My set up is slighty different to yours as I only have one floor above the basement.

Good luck!