Heatilator Mark 123 (3138EP), insert vs new fireplace

[KnutChomik]

We bought a house a few months ago with an old Heatilator Mark 123 (model #3138EP). We had a sweep out to do a level 2 inspection but before he even got that far, he said the gap in the venting is a problem they often see with the firebox settling, and it was unsafe to use.

Priorities:
Using fire for ambiance
Want to burn wood
Heat is a nice bonus but not required. We have a couch just a few feet away so too much heat would be bad the way we have the room set up.
Efficiency isn't really a priority (but again, a nice bonus) and there are no restrictions on fireplace types where I live (i.e., don't need EPA)

We went to a big local fireplace chain to ask about options - they suggested a new ZC fireplace (Heat and Glo Royal Hearth 42). They wanted to come in through the exterior wall to redo the chimney. Didn't like the idea of wood inserts and said they don't do them entirely. The second place I went to was pretty strongly in favor of an insert. They suggested the Fireplace Xtordinair Small Flush Hybrid-Fyre. I asked the tech from the 2nd place if it was an issue installing it into the ZC fireplace with the gap the sweep didn't like, and he didn't think it was an issue. I could see the answer going either way, because on one hand, it's a compromised installation and presumably not what the insert was tested with, but on the other hand, if they're putting new exhaust pipe up the chimney, maybe it doesn't matter.

I called the first place back to follow up, and they insisted the inserts were just too heavy. The fireplace is elevated (on a 18" hearth, and the firebox is ~3" above the hearth) and on an exterior wall. The insert in question weighs 265lbs per the manufacturer. Both quotes are about the same price - I want this to be done safely, but also as non-disruptively as possible. Given that the insert is UL listed and rated for installation into a ZC fireplace, I'm a little confused why two stores differ on this.

What would you do in this situation?

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[bholler]

Well here is your manual.

http://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installManuals/3138EP.PDF

There is a warning on page 1 and page 4 that says that you can only install components and accessories listed in that manual . So no you cannot install an insert even if it was in good working order. And the fact that the chimney is apparently disconnected means that even those who normally would ignore the manufacturers instructions and do it anyway absolutely should not in this case.

One solution could be if the rest of the unit is in good condition that chimney may be able to be reconnected. We have done it in several cases like yours. But without seeing it there is no way for me to say if that would be an option.

 

[KnutChomik]

Well here is your manual.

http://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installManuals/3138EP.PDF

There is a warning on page 1 and page 4 that says that you can only install components and accessories listed in that manual . So no you cannot install an insert even if it was in good working order. And the fact that the chimney is apparently disconnected means that even those who normally would ignore the manufacturers instructions and do it anyway absolutely should not in this case.

One solution could be if the rest of the unit is in good condition that chimney may be able to be reconnected. We have done it in several cases like yours. But without seeing it there is no way for me to say if that would be an option.

Thanks, I have seen the manual, and the warnings. That said, the insert I mentioned is being manufactured today and has been tested and is sold as being OK as an insert in a metal heatilator ZC fireplace, and it has UL/ETL markings. Obviously they couldn't have anticipated what happened 40-50 years after they published the manual. It seems to defy common sense to me that the 70's-era manual would trump all this - this isn't some ebay conversion kit from china that costs $399, it's an insert made for this purpose by a major manufacturer that's going to cost about as much as the other store quoted for a new ZC.

That said, I'm not dead set on that particular solution - in fact looking at the installation manual for the insert itself, they specify an uncompromised chimney and no modifications to the ZC, so it seems like I'm getting bad advice from installer #2. I'm frankly a little frustrated, since I went to the two best-known fireplace stores in town, and it seems like I was suggested an unsafe installation from the one that came out, and the other one wants a $200 deposit to even do an on-site quote. This job is in the same price range as other major work I've had done like HVAC and Plumbing, and I've never had someone ask me to pay for an estimate for a job of this size.

To bring it back to my original question - I realize this is partial information, but I'd like to know what people think would be the most expedient way of doing this safely. Do you think it's possible the original sweep was wrong? Within reason, I'm willing to pay whatever it costs. My first thought was what you suggested - reconnecting venting - but the sweep that started this whole project didn't think it was repairable.

ETA: Most home improvement forums don't like price discussion, but based on the fact that the few $ numbers I mentioned weren't filtered, it was around $6K parts/labor for both installer 1's new ZC and installer 2's insert. Installer 2 thought it would be significantly more (they don't do their own demo/finish work) to do a new ZC.

 

[bholler]

It seems to defy common sense to me that the 70's-era manual would trump all this

It may seem odd to you but it is absolutly true. Code requires that you follow all manufacturers instructions and if one is telling you that you cant install anything other than the components listed in their manual that is all you can install. It does not matter what the insert manufacturer says. Yes i know many insets say you can do it but that also cover their asses legally by the way they word their instructions.

I've never had someone ask me to pay for an estimate for a job of this size.

I agree that is not normal I have never heard that either.

To bring it back to my original question - I realize this is partial information, but I'd like to know what people think would be the most expedient way of doing this safely.

I would need to see the unit and the damage to be able to give you that answer. But an insert is not an option if you want it to be code compliant.

Do you think it's possible the original sweep was wrong?

Yes it is possible but it is also very possible he is right.

My first thought was what you suggested - reconnecting venting - but the sweep that started this whole project didn't think it was repairable.

Again I cant say if that is an option or not without being there

 

[begreen]

If the ZC still is in decent condition and the fireplace is mostly used for ambience fires, would it be possible to have the chimney reconnected like bholler suggested? Seems like the most affordable solution.

 

[KnutChomik]

If the ZC still is in decent condition and the fireplace is mostly used for ambience fires, would it be possible to have the chimney reconnected like bholler suggested? Seems like the most affordable solution.

Thanks for the suggestion. As mentioned, the sweep didn't think that was possible. I'd like to go that route but see below for more info.

Re the fireplace, it is fine as far as I can tell. The sheet metal in the back wall is a little warped but nobody has commented except the realtor. I get the impression it is refractory/firebrick behind it. The guy from the 2nd fireplace installer actually broke the chain for the damper doing the estimate (string of beads like you'd have on a keychain, but very much his fault - he got a tape measure stuck up there and pulled hard). I was frustrated but didn't make too big a deal of it since I figured I was getting a new fireplace anyway, and what was I going to do, make him magically generate parts for a fireplace that hasn't existed since the Nixon administration? So the damper is stuck open at this point (chain pulled down=closed). I have no idea if it's possible to repair it.

My experiences with the two (highest rated on yelp/google) local pros so far are why I'm pretty frustrated. Based on my experience so far, I am prepared to spend whatever money is required to have this fixed and not to have anyone involved in the business other than a sweep visit my home for the foreseeable future. I am not impressed with people in the industry I've encountered locally so far.

 

[edyit]

(broken link removed to http://www.csia.org/search.html)

try that link, it should ensure that you get someone who should know what they're doing when they look at your set up. i'd pick someone off that list over yelp....

 

[begreen]

Good suggestion. Ask the certified sweep to determine if the chimney can be reconnected and the damper chain fixed. Hopefully the latter issue will not be a big deal.

 

[KnutChomik]

Thanks for the suggestion. The first sweep was actually from a CSIA shop and he suggested an insert (although he readily admitted they don't do installations and to check with an installer to see what they recommend). The first installer was the company they partner with. I contacted another local CSIA sweep to get a second opinion about a repair.

 

[bholler]

I contacted another local CSIA sweep to get a second opinion about a repair.

I think that is a good approach. If they agree with the first guy chances are they are right.

 

[KnutChomik]

Thanks for the suggestion - I hope to get good news from the second sweep. We were quite happy with the fireplace as is so it would be nice if it worked out. After the first sweep said they couldn't do the repair I'd somewhat discounted that option. It would be nice if we could keep the outside of the chimney as is, not just for cost reasons, but because I'd like to do a ductless mini-split AC install this summer and they will likely need to do a refrigerant line run along the chimney chase (assuming temperature isn't an issue there - I don't know enough to say, and nobody's recommended it, it just looks like the easiest path).

Incidentally, the shop that wanted to do the insert got cold feet in the end - he followed up with the quote today and said yes, on second thought, the insert won't be safe given the disconnected part. I do wonder if he went back to the installation manual after I pushed on this a bit. I get the impression that they don't deal with this particular situation very often. He suggested a massive unit (http://rsf-fireplaces.com/en/focus-320-woodburning-fireplace, 45x45, we're about 36x26 right now and it's matched well to the hearth and room). $7K and that's just product+install for chimney and fireplace - none of the demo, reframing, or finish.

Regarding the second sweep and fixing the damper - how literally do you take the heatilator instructions that there can't be any modifications? I was thinking a top damper would be an easy solution to this (and a nice upgrade) if the venting can be fixed, but the OEM damper can't be repaired. We're about 20 feet from the firebox at this point - do you still consider that part of the system that can't be modified?

 

[begreen]

Depends what he broke in the damper. Was it the chain, the attachment point, or??

 

[bholler]

Thanks for the suggestion - I hope to get good news from the second sweep. We were quite happy with the fireplace as is so it would be nice if it worked out. After the first sweep said they couldn't do the repair I'd somewhat discounted that option. It would be nice if we could keep the outside of the chimney as is, not just for cost reasons, but because I'd like to do a ductless mini-split AC install this summer and they will likely need to do a refrigerant line run along the chimney chase (assuming temperature isn't an issue there - I don't know enough to say, and nobody's recommended it, it just looks like the easiest path).

Incidentally, the shop that wanted to do the insert got cold feet in the end - he followed up with the quote today and said yes, on second thought, the insert won't be safe given the disconnected part. I do wonder if he went back to the installation manual after I pushed on this a bit. I get the impression that they don't deal with this particular situation very often. He suggested a massive unit (http://rsf-fireplaces.com/en/focus-320-woodburning-fireplace, 45x45, we're about 36x26 right now and it's matched well to the hearth and room). $7K and that's just product+install for chimney and fireplace - none of the demo, reframing, or finish.

Regarding the second sweep and fixing the damper - how literally do you take the heatilator instructions that there can't be any modifications? I was thinking a top damper would be an easy solution to this (and a nice upgrade) if the venting can be fixed, but the OEM damper can't be repaired. We're about 20 feet from the firebox at this point - do you still consider that part of the system that can't be modified?

Well by the letter of the law you cant use a top sealer. But there are dampers. That slide into the top of the chimney and should not compromise the chimney at all. But it would not meet code. Fixing the origonal damper would be best.

 

[KnutChomik]

Depends what he broke in the damper. Was it the chain, the attachment point, or??

I have a broken chain sitting on my hearth. He pulled until it broke and now it's stuck open. Not sure beyond that.

 

[begreen]

Hopefully this will be a simple fix with a replacement chain.

 

[KnutChomik]

Thanks, waiting to hear back from the second sweep (they offered to work over email for a preliminary consultation).