help choosing easy IWB to use

[Mike T]

Gents-
I have been reading this forum for quite some time and just recently got off lurker status.
Obviously, I want to install an IWB.

Here is my situation:

I need about 200000 btu to cover everything according to a heat loss study, but the old propane burner heats OK (100k running fine as long as the basement zone and DHW isn't on). I do have a new 200k propane burner being installed, but want the wood boiler as I have a large wood lot and i was paying $2.99 a gallon.

I have narrowed the choices down to Tarm, EKO, and Garn with the help of all the reviews on here. I live about 1/2 hour from Bioheat so that may be a plus.

While I have the room to put a Garn in, I don't know if I have the BTU need for it (I was told to avoid going too big on the IWB)
The Garn appeals to me as it comes with a built in water system and I could put it in a corner in a walled off (with a door)seperated part of the basement and I don't need a chimney. To visualize- this could go in the basement of an addition I built. Wood would be stored in this area also.

I do like the EKO as it would appear to have a better stanby feature, but Tarm is close and they have a very good reputation. I actually can put this near the other boiler as I have a open chimney flue, but I would track wood and debris throughout the basement from the addition. I understand water storage is the wway to go for this, but would it create problems to add the H20 storage later about 40 feet from the boiler?

Last, but not least, is maintainance and ease of use. The EKO with the brushes seens to be a champ here, but I don't know about the Garn.

This may be a silly question....but how do you get a Garn into position in a basement? I do have a garage door in the basement so actually getting one of the units in isn't a problem, but rolling a Garn on iron pipe is not a good idea.

Thanks for any and all advice.

 

[NHFarmer]

I love my Tarm. Easy to use, not really a big deal to clean the tubes. If you live that close to Bioheat why not stop by and look at their units. They are real helpful

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

While I have the room to put a Garn in, I don't know if I have the BTU need for it (I was told to avoid going too big on the IWB)

Because of the integral storage, going "too big" isn't really a problem, other than in added cost and more space taken up. The bigger boiler just means you go longer between fires.

I understand water storage is the wway to go for this, but would it create problems to add the H20 storage later about 40 feet from the boiler?

In many ways, it's better to do it all at once. Pumping 40 feet is not a problem, though, in any case.

Last, but not least, is maintainance and ease of use. The EKO with the brushes seens to be a champ here, but I don't know about the Garn.

The easiest-cleaning boiler is probably the Fröling, as it includes the turbulator/cleaning assembly, and also runs extremely clean due to the oxygen-sensor-based control system. It's also very easy to operate, since it controls its own air adjustments and such. Of course, it costs more, and cannot be installed without storage, so the added features may not be justified for you, personally, depending upon your priorities and budget.

This may be a silly question....but how do you get a Garn into position in a basement?

Very carefully!

I do have a garage door in the basement so actually getting one of the units in isn't a problem, but rolling a Garn on iron pipe is not a good idea.

The pipes and a few sturdy laborers, and it moves pretty easy. Two tons is nothing to sneer at, but it's by no means impossible to move. If you want to get real fancy, you can get a few boards with casters, and set them under the thing. By distributing the load, no one wheel is over-stressed.

Joe

 

[Northwoodsman]

Firestarter,

I have an EK040 system that I just love!

I installed it before Thanksgiving of 2008 and we've had one of the coldest winters on record in Northern Michigan (it was 15 below zero last night).

Thus far I've used approx. 12 face cords of wood-hard maple and I have 2.5 more left for March/April. I've been talking to a lot of OWB users and most of them are already out of wood!
(I guess I'd have a lot more left if the winter had been mild/normal).

I would be more than happy to discuss your system requirments in detail and give you a detailed proposal on all the items you will need.

Please contact me thru my website at (broken link removed).

Look forward to hearing from you.

NWM

 

[Jim K in PA]

Welcome to the boiler room.

As far as ease of use, ease of installation, and simplicity, the GARN is hard to beat. If you have a doorway with a straight, level entrance that is at least 6'-4" wide and 6'-8" high, I would not hesitate to put a GARN in the basement. The GARN only has two moving parts, the fan motor and the door hinge - not too maintenance intensive. Flue/heat exchanger clean outs are all on the front wall.

As Joe said above, moving a GARN on iron pipes is actually quite easy - I move mine that way. Link in my sig to my pictures.

With that kind of heat load (200k Btuh) the GARN is in no way oversized. I would go for the WHS2000 and expect two, 2-3 hour burns a day. I see 400k Btuh input regularly on mine - it heats the house and brings storage temps up right quick!

Keep us posted.

 

[WoodNotOil]

I second the Garn for your application. You can't beat the all in one approach with storage like this. It saves a lot on the plumbing, pumps, and controls involved in hooking storage up to a gasifier. Sounds like you can get it in to the walkout basement alright. I am sure there are several options for moving it into place depending on who you know and what you could borrow from automotive guys or someone that works in freight. Pipe works too if nothing else. Probably either the 1500 or the 2000 would work for your application. You would be able to go longer between burns with the 2000 because of larger storage capacity and btu's generated.

With that said, I am extremely happy with my Tarm and drool over the new boilers bioheat is offering now. A Froling with storage is a pretty awesome setup and would do the job nicely. Any of the major brands will work with storage, but the Garn has a lot of unique features and you wouldn't even need an outbuilding for it which is the stumbling block for many others to get one.

 

[Birdman]

First.. Bioheat UsA is top notch business. Give them a visit. I bought mine there... Tarm 40 and have had it running since Nov 10th. It is awesome... best investment i have ever made. Only wish I had done this 10 years ago! I researched for tons of hours about all the types and models OWB, EKO, Tarm, Garn. I guess... i could honeslty say... teh tarm works best for my situation.... but in your situation?..... I might take a hard look at the Garn as well... the thing just seems like a great way to heat. PS... the froling looks amazing too!

 

[stee6043]

I love my EKO and the flexibility of having my storage basically anywhere I want it. But if I had the room and a building with a door I would definitely have considered the Garn. Total cost is likely going to be roughly the same as a stand alone boiler with equivalent storage.

Worth considering in your calculations is the cost of a chimney. With a Garn you can vent horizontally. In my opinion this is a fantastic advantage. I have over $1,000 wrapped up in a 24' chimney with a chase. It works great, the construction was fun, but the $1,000 is something to think about...

 

[pybyr]

I have an Econoburn 150 and am very happy with it. I will be adding 1200 gallons of storage.

My venture into this "next stage" of wood heat was inspired by a neighbor about a mile down the road who put in a Garn. I have heated with wood for years, and had heard of gasifiers and storage, but when I saw his install, I suddenly "got" the parts about the much higher efficiencies and the way that storage gives the ability to "fire when desired" even if you are not around all the time to feed logs (which is what my old wood/ air furnace needed to maintain heat).

In my situation, there was no way to even think about shoehorning a Garn down the hatch of my old farmhouse cellar-- and I did not want to add a new dedicated outbuilding or underground piping.

I am really thoroughly happy with my Econoburn-- but-- given the "all in one" simplicity and fool-proof-ness of the Garn, if I were doing it again had a place where I could slide a Garn into my cellar, I'd go that path. If I had a total clean slate and were building from scratch, or even re-doing a house with an open floor plan, I'd do a high quality masonry heater.

 

[hoth2oguy]

Mike T, give us a call and come on in for a visit. We'd be happy to give you the tour of boilers and talk about the specifics of your installation.

 

[Mike T]

I did go to Bioheat and talk to the people there some time ago. Very knowledgable and they sort of brought the idea of a Tarm back into the mix as I was only cosidering the EKO before that.

Another reason I consider the Tarm/EKO is that it is a pressurized syetem vs the Garn unpressurized, so it wouild be a direct fit vs a heat exchanger.

However, Jim K (if you are still reading this) posted a reply in another thread where the Garn is tied directly into the system and the oil/gas sytem is now unpressurized. Can you or anyone else provide information on that?

 

[Jim K in PA]

I did go to Bioheat and talk to the people there some time ago. Very knowledgable and they sort of brought the idea of a Tarm back into the mix as I was only cosidering the EKO before that.

Another reason I consider the Tarm/EKO is that it is a pressurized syetem vs the Garn unpressurized, so it wouild be a direct fit vs a heat exchanger.

However, Jim K (if you are still reading this) posted a reply in another thread where the Garn is tied directly into the system and the oil/gas sytem is now unpressurized. Can you or anyone else provide information on that?

Yep - still here. Not sure which thread you are referring to, but I went through the series (depressurized oil furnace) vs. parallel (heat exchanger) debate for my application. It really makes a lot of sense to maintain the pressurized house system and use the HX to transfer the heat from the GARN.

You probably should sketch out your top three alternatives and pencil up the costs and complexity of each one. That way you can get a better feel for what you will be getting into in each situation. This is a big upgrade, and worth the attention to details.

 

[Mike T]

OK Guys- What am I missing here? I have a very rough idea of parts needed and I am comparing prices on getting the IWB attached to my existting system.

The Garn costs about $12, 500 and shipping oculd go up another $1,500. After that, I need some piping and a HX, and circulators.
I do not need to build a building or have any other insulation expenses. Is there anything else obviously missing?

The Tarm, with heat storage package, is going to run about $17,000 -$18000 from the factory. The package appears to have just about everything I could need. I already have an existing chimney to hook this up to. Why is it several thousand $ more?

Would it be that much more economical for me to get the Tarm/EKO without storage and get a propane tank for storage?

Thanks!

 

[WoodNotOil]

Would it be that much more economical for me to get the Tarm/EKO without storage and get a propane tank for storage?

Probably. It depends on what you pay for the tank and if you are doing the install or paying someone to do it. The advantage of buying storage is that it is someone else's design and someone else's responsibility that it works correctly. You can save by doing it yourself and many have done that here.

If you are looking for an off the shelf solution, you can't get much better than a Garn. An Eko with homemade storage may come in a little cheaper though. Most people dismiss the Garn because of the need for an outbuilding, which doesn't seem to be an issue for you. If you are planning to buy the storage anyway, go with the Garn...

 

[Piker]

The only think I think about a boiler with integrated storage is that in 20 years when you need to replace your boiler, you will also be replacing the storage since they are one in the same. If you seperate the two, your storage will probably last longer than the boiler, and it won't need replaced when the boiler does. This of course depends on how well you maintain the system and how effective the air venting is. I would think that a properly cared for pressurized storage tank in the form of a propane tank would last much longer than 20 years. I don't have any data to back that up... it's just my first thought. If anyone has any ideas on that I would welcome them.

cheers

 

[Galroc]

I was thinking about a IWB, mainly a Tarm Excel 2200. Went to the local dealer, and they are not offering any incentives for purchasing, while Central Boiler is offering $2100 off of the E-Classic 2300. I can't justify the Excel's $4500 premium, plus installation costs, plus water storage costs over the E-Classic 2300.

 

[Mike T]

I have to get in contact with the gent from CO who couldn't afford to install his Garn.
I would like to see what he has to say on the subject...

 

[sdrobertson]

I have to get in contact with the gent from CO who couldn't afford to install his Garn.
I would like to see what he has to say on the subject...

His handle is rvtgr8 and his name is Robert (if I remember correctly). He's right in the middle of his own install and has several threads showing his progress. Search for his posts and you'll find several threads that he has started after finding out that his installers price was pretty high - so he's doing it himself. His installation is looking really well put together and its cool to follow along as he builds. With the help of the good people here - anything is possible to accomplish yourself (and its kinda addicting, fun, and allot cheaper!).

 

[Piker]

Self installs are definitely rewarding... If you are new to hydronic heat, it's best to get some guidance by someone who has been around the block a little bit... and there's definitely plenty of those people around here. You can spend alot of money doing things the wrong way, that's for sure. Take your time, do your research, and be warm.

cheers

 

[WoodNotOil]

I was thinking about a IWB, mainly a Tarm Excel 2200. Went to the local dealer, and they are not offering any incentives for purchasing, while Central Boiler is offering $2100 off of the E-Classic 2300. I can't justify the Excel's $4500 premium, plus installation costs, plus water storage costs over the E-Classic 2300.

First off, the E-classics from what I have read have many issues and that is most likely the reason for the $2100 off in price. I personally wouldn't touch any of the new gasification OWB's for at least a year or two, to allow them to be proven technology. This is the first stab at this for these manufacturers, whereas many of the IWB gasifiers have been around for 10+ years and are proven. The multi-fuel boilers are always more than the straight wood which is why the Excel seems so pricey. If cost is your biggest concern, then you should go with something like an EKO or even the Atmos some guys have been talking about and a used propane tank for storage. Install it yourself and you will be in business for a lot less.

 

[Galroc]

I need a single flue solution if I go with an indoor wood boiler, which is why the Excel is of interest to me. I don't want to replace my oil boiler, and I only have one flue, besides my fireplace flue. I am not so sure that the e-classic has that many problems. The local dealer is only stocking e-classic 2300 and none of the other central OWB. I think the market has crashed since oil as dropped in price, which is causing OWB/IWB to sit on dealer floors.