Help in picking a stove size

[kguarnotta]

Hello Folks. I have been a lurker on the list for a bit.

The house I bought is a converted old barn. It is very large. It is currently heated with a forced hot water boiler. I also have a wood burning stove - that is not int he best location for the way we use our house. Ie I want to move it.

The stove is an old Vermont Castings Defiant stove from the 70's. It is in pretty bad shape - leaking seals, back plate totally cracked. It produces good heat - but it is somewhat inconsistent. We also have a large open hearth fireplace - and I was planning on installing a new wood stove there. I was going to have an insulated liner installed in the flue, and put a wood stove in the hearth.

The main living space is approximately 1000 SF (Living, Dining, Kitchen, Entry) This is all open, with approximatley 9' ceilings.

If you add in the bedrooms on this floor the total SF is about 1450. The bedroom are so disconnected from the main space - ie small doors - that we have always used the boiler to heat these rooms. The house is old, and very leaky, drafty, terribly insulated. Along with a new stove, I am also slowly insulating the house - a section at a time.

I am leaning towards the Jotul Carabasset about 3 cu ft. This firebox is similar in size to the old one I have. Talking to a sales rep at one time, he said I could just get the stove going nice and hot, and then the new stove has such good adjustments, I could damp it down (probably not exactly what he said but this is the gist of it) and have a nice lower burn for a long time.

Alternativel I could get the Jotul Oslo, which is about 2.5 Cu ft box.

My concerns are - is this stove too big, what if I burn smaller fires in it? I have read suggestions for those with fireboxes too big - to just add some firebrick to make your burn box smaller.

Any thoughts on this? Suggestions?

 

[prezes13]

I wouldn't put extra bricks to make a fire box smaller, just put less wood in it. Tell us about your budget. Personally I would look into a blaze king line of stoves mostlikely 30 series. Those stoves have a wide range of heat output. From very low and slow to full throttle like your old stove.

 

[begreen]

The Jotul F55 could be a good choice. Load less wood during milder weather for less heat and let it go out if the place is warm enough. It will run on 5-6 splits. During colder weather you will be running full loads of wood to keep up with the heat loss of the house. If the bedrooms are off a hallway that is open to the stove area a fan on the floor at the far end of the hallway blowing toward the stove room on low speed can help balance out the heat. Warm air from the stove room will replace the cooler air that is being pushed toward the stove room.

 

[firefighterjake]

Hello Folks. I have been a lurker on the list for a bit.Nothing wrong with that . . . that's how I met my wife . . . she was stalking me . . . .

The house I bought is a converted old barn. It is very large. It is currently heated with a forced hot water boiler. I also have a wood burning stove - that is not int he best location for the way we use our house. Ie I want to move it.Would love to see some pics of this home . . . in terms of moving it I generally recommend (and many folks here recommend) putting a stove in the room where you spend the most amount of time when you are awake. In my case, that's the living room . . . for other folks it may be a different room.

The stove is an old Vermont Castings Defiant stove from the 70's. It is in pretty bad shape - leaking seals, back plate totally cracked. It produces good heat - but it is somewhat inconsistent. We also have a large open hearth fireplace - and I was planning on installing a new wood stove there. I was going to have an insulated liner installed in the flue, and put a wood stove in the hearth.Good idea . . .

The main living space is approximately 1000 SF (Living, Dining, Kitchen, Entry) This is all open, with approximatley 9' ceilings.

If you add in the bedrooms on this floor the total SF is about 1450. The bedroom are so disconnected from the main space - ie small doors - that we have always used the boiler to heat these rooms. The house is old, and very leaky, drafty, terribly insulated. Along with a new stove, I am also slowly insulating the house - a section at a time. Another wicked good idea . . . in fact some of the best advice I got early on here was to first spend my money to button up the house with additional insulation and caulking and that has paid off in the few years I have been heating with wood. I figure I work hard to process the wood so I would rather keep as much heat as I can vs. warming up Bambi, Thumper and the rest of the gang outside.

I am leaning towards the Jotul Carabasset about 3 cu ft. This firebox is similar in size to the old one I have. Talking to a sales rep at one time, he said I could just get the stove going nice and hot, and then the new stove has such good adjustments, I could damp it down (probably not exactly what he said but this is the gist of it) and have a nice lower burn for a long time.A good stove . . . but I'm not quite sure it works that way . . . generally the second burners reach operating temp (not too cold and not too hot -- a thermometer on the stove and/or stove pipe helps) and then you close down the air control (basically damping it down) . . . which typically results in a longer burn (true), but the temp does not generally go down . . . and in fact, sometimes goes up a bit as the gases are burned off (hence the secondary burning moniker.)

Alternativel I could get the Jotul Oslo, which is about 2.5 Cu ft box. Also a good stove . . . if things are truly drafty and not well insulated I am more inclined to think bigger is better . . .

My concerns are - is this stove too big, what if I burn smaller fires in it? I have read suggestions for those with fireboxes too big - to just add some firebrick to make your burn box smaller.No problems . . . a) you can always burn smaller fires in a bigger firebox (not so easy the other way around unless you own one of those stoves from Gallifrey -- the TARDIS models where it is bigger on the inside than the outside) or b) if all day heat is not needed just burn a quick, hot fire to heat up the stove and then let the heated stove radiate the heat for several hours (which is what I do this time of year.) I would not bother adding more fire brick to the stove . . . as this may impede how well it works and effectively reduces the amount of wood you can load in the firebox which translates into less burn time.

Any thoughts on this? Suggestions? I would be remiss if I didn't ask if you had considered the stove company located very close to you . . . Woodstock.

 

[kguarnotta]

Thanks for the feedback, I forgot to mention - this is a vacation home. in the heating months it is generally just used on weekends.
Stove is to be located in the room most used - but then again - this place has basically one large open room (kitchen, dining, living) and then bedrooms.

The new stove is going to go across the room from where the old stove is.

As far as insulating and air sealing - this is an OLD house, actually an old barn, so it is super drafty. It was never really insulated very well. I am working on insulating -a long with a big long list of items that the place needs. I can only do so much at a time. The stove has moved up the list, as the existing one is in such bad shape - and in a location I don't really like.

As for the Woodstock Stove company - I think that is VT. I am in NH. The installer that I have spoken with recommended against the soapstone stove, as the time to really get the thing working well - does not correlate to how I would be using the stove (ie weekends). In other words - they are great stoves, if you are running them all the time.

As far as budget - I don't mind spending a bit extra - as these things are supposed to last for a really long time, and we don't plan on selling the place. The Carabasset is in the $2,500 range, with some good discounts this time of year. Actual cost may be around $2,200. I also like the idea that the Jotul are put together locally in ME. As far as a Blaze King - I had not heard of them. I wish the manufacturers would allow pricing to be on the web - so we could compare product pricing, instead of having to call every dealer to find comparable pricing on comparable stoves.

 

[begreen]

By the building description it sounds like there will be no problem with the F55 size. A cold building takes a lot of extra horsepower to bring the air space, walls and furniture up to temperature.

 

[firefighterjake]

Thanks for the feedback, I forgot to mention - this is a vacation home. in the heating months it is generally just used on weekends.
Stove is to be located in the room most used - but then again - this place has basically one large open room (kitchen, dining, living) and then bedrooms.

The new stove is going to go across the room from where the old stove is.

As far as insulating and air sealing - this is an OLD house, actually an old barn, so it is super drafty. It was never really insulated very well. I am working on insulating -a long with a big long list of items that the place needs. I can only do so much at a time. The stove has moved up the list, as the existing one is in such bad shape - and in a location I don't really like.

As for the Woodstock Stove company - I think that is VT. I am in NH. The installer that I have spoken with recommended against the soapstone stove, as the time to really get the thing working well - does not correlate to how I would be using the stove (ie weekends). In other words - they are great stoves, if you are running them all the time.

As far as budget - I don't mind spending a bit extra - as these things are supposed to last for a really long time, and we don't plan on selling the place. The Carabasset is in the $2,500 range, with some good discounts this time of year. Actual cost may be around $2,200. I also like the idea that the Jotul are put together locally in ME. As far as a Blaze King - I had not heard of them. I wish the manufacturers would allow pricing to be on the web - so we could compare product pricing, instead of having to call every dealer to find comparable pricing on comparable stoves.

Ah . . . I would agree with your installer then since this is a vacation home with occasional use . . . and say that while a soapstone stove could still be used here (any stove could really), the better choice may be a cast iron or steel stove. Incidentally, I think Woodstock is still in NH, but it's right on the border which I think is all the way across the state for you.

 

[kguarnotta]

Another question - my existing stove has a thermostatic sort of air control, as well as a damper on the stove pipe/chimney pipe.

The new stove would only have the air control at the front, and no way to damp down the chimney. Should I be concerned about that? Also - I see most stoves also come with an outside air kit. As my house is not really airtight - I think that is probably unnecessary, right?

Oh yeah, one other thing my existing fireplace is rather deep. I was thinking I could/shoudl put some sort of insulation behind the stove. Has anyone else done something like that - and have pics, or explanation of how they did it, and if it was worth it?

thanks.

 

[begreen]

Yes, there will probably be no need for a flue damper and there is no thermostatic control on the F55. Insulation behind the stove will help if this is an exterior chimney, though the F55 is already rear heat-shielded so the radiant heat in the rear won't be too great. For sure though install an insulated block-off plate below the damper area to keep the most heat in the room and not up the chimney

 

[stovelark]

From what you are describing, the Carabasset sounds like a great choice, as it gets cold in NH. The F55 is a real heat hammer but you'll be able to control the heat output accordingly. We sell her for 2146, plus Jotul has a 100 dollar rebate that you can get after the sale.. Good deal....

 

[kguarnotta]

Thanks for all the feedback...I'm thinking that the Carabasset is a good choice.

I have also just heard about a Woodstock Absolute stove. It has soapstone inside - I think instead of the typical firebrick. I'll try to read up a bit on this to compare. Immediately I see that it is a smaller size (2.5 cu ft compared to 3. cu ft.)

 

[begreen]

In the Woodstock line I would consider the larger Ideal Steel, but the Jotul is still a very good choice.

 

[kguarnotta]

OK - more info just to confuse myself more (I think I heard someone call it analysis paralysis).

I called another dealer to see what they had to compare to the Jotul Carabasset - and he tried to sell me on an insert. I told him that I read inserts don't give off as much heat, and you lose a lot of heat up the chimney (that is what I read about on this forum). He assured me that is not the case. He siad I should look at something like the Enviro Boston, or the Enviro Cabello. These do look they could be a cleaner install - I am worried about how effective they will be.


The little I understand from reading this site-

Insert Pros

1. look a little cleaner (installed flush to fireplace front)
2. larger glass - for more visible fire, which sounds nice.
3. Much more efficient?

Insert Cons

1. Need a fan to really move the heat out of the fireplace (this is a major strike out for me - I don't want to listen to a fan, I want to listen to wood burning)
2. Lose heat up chimney? not sure how accurate this is based on my discussion with the installer. Although I have a feeling he may be biased

Freestanding Pros

1. Radiate heat better
2. Simpler to install

Freestanding Cons

1. Sticks out into room
2. Not as clean an installation

Any real world experience to add to this? Am I missing some more...

Not sure if I mentioned this before, my chimney is a large stone chimney on the outside of the house. My hearth is huge, so fitting an insert should not be a problem, could probably even fit a lot of insulation behind the insert too.

 

[begreen]

Seems like there's a bit of a sales pitch. In general, the more a stove can extend into the room the better it will heat. The Enviro is a very good insert but with a bit smaller firebox than the Jotul and a bit lower heat output. Both will work but I think the Jotul will have an edge on helping bring the place up to temperature on a weekend visit. That said, getting the Enviro would not be a huge step down. It's a good performer and a very classy looking insert.

PS: I am assuming you would be getting the Jotul with blower.

 

[stovelark]

In general, most MFRs will rate an insert that has the same firebox capacity as a free standing model to heat roughly the same area, keeping in mind that the insert has a jacket around the body of the stove that the blower will assist in stripping heat away from the insert and into the room, at a considerable cost (usually around an additional 20-25 percent) of what the freestander will run you. The inserts' main advantage to most people is the aesthetics of a finished look of the fireplace. Having said that and it sounds like you don't want to listen to a blower (most inserts now have fairly quiet blowers if not ran on hi), the free stander is what it sounds like you want. Without a blower, the insert doesn't work near as well and I'd still say a comparable free stander out of the fireplace (or mostly out) will outperform most inserts using the blower. Just my opinion.....

 

[kguarnotta]

ok, I think my instinct from reading the other posts - and the thought of a blower (which I don't like the idea of) has me back to a freestanding stove.

I've been reading about the Woodstock Stove company Absolute Steel stove. Sounds like it burns super clean (with a catalytic element). I was trying to stay clear of these, but I guess they have come a long way (so I've been told) and are easy to maintain and about $150 to replace if you need to replace. Only need to clean about once per cord of wood burned.

I'd say - now I'm down to deciding between the Jotul Carabasset and the Absolute Stove. Kind of between a catalytic and non-catalytic stove.

 

[begreen]

It takes a while to warm up a cold cabin. In a fireplace I would expect to use the blower even on a freestanding stove, especially to bring the place up to temp quicker. Once the interior has settled down and all the room contents and walls have warmed up the blower can be set to low or maybe even off.

Have you looked at the Woodstock Ideal Steel? It is a bit larger and a good value.

 

[kguarnotta]

Our house has a boiler, which I can control remotely (wifi thermostat). So I can turn the boiler on before I get there, than just fire up the stove when I get there, and turn the boiler off.

I spoke with Woodstock Stove company about eh two stove, and based on my situation they seemed to be directing me to get the Absolute. They say it can heat a space up 1800 to 2000 SF. I know there are a lot of different factors which can affect that number, but still much larger than my space. The Ideal Steel is rated for 2200 SF. They say their numbers are very conservative.

 

[begreen]

Square footage heated is relative to the house construction, ceiling height, wind strength and outside temps. I would build in some reserve for a leaky barn in NH. The IS is a closer match to the F55. Remember, you can always run the stove with a partial load of fuel if less heat is desired.

PS: I am calculating for 1450 sq ft. Is there a second floor? If so, what is the total sq ftg.?

 

[kguarnotta]

The 1st floor living area is ~1000 SF, plus bedrooms = 1450 SF. Realistically, I don't see how the heat from the wood stove would ever make it to the bedrooms - maybe after I finish air sealing the house. But at this point when we run our Defiant - it can get the living area toasty warm (sometime too hot) but no real heat in Bedrooms.

We do have a 2nd and 3rd floor. There is another fireplace up there - upgrade planned in about 2 years there. The 2nd and 3rd floor are pretty completely separate from the 1st floor, I don't imagine any heat getting up there.

I see the Ideal Steel having a similar size firebox, but considering these stoves burn so much more efficiently - I figure I could go with a smaller stove. I understand the idea of getting a larger stove, than just running a partial load, but I've heard that kills the efficiency, increases pollution etc, that it why I was leaning towards the Absolute.

 

[kguarnotta]

OK - just to help wrap this up a bit, I am going to go with one of the woodstock stoves. They have a 6 month guarantee - so I can try it for a winter, if I don't like it - I'll try to jotul.

 

[begreen]

I'm still going to suggest the Ideal Steel. You can always run it lower but I think you will need full reserves during single digit weather. Truth is though we have no track record with the Absolute Steel yet.

 

[kguarnotta]

I hear you about using the Ideal Steel - but that stove weighs 620 lbs vs. the Absolute which comes in at 490 lbs. I think the weight difference is one of the things about a soapstone stove - if they are too heavy - they take longer to heat up. As I will mainly be a weekend user - I would be looking for a quicker heat up time. They only rate the Ideal for 2200 SF vs the Absolute which is rated to 1800 SF. They say their ratings are estimates, and I understand there are a lot of factors beyond their control when they do these ratings - but within a given manufacturer - their ratings should be comparable.

 

[begreen]

The soapstone liner in the IS is an option. It is at the back of the firebox. Users have not reported slow warm up as an issue.

 

[kguarnotta]

The IS stove weighs 120 lbs more, it must take longer to heat up...