Help installing an off-grid propane range!

[Jameediane]

Hey there,

I’m installing a little propane stovetop/oven in a school bus conversion and running into a couple of issues. When previously installed and hooked up to a 20 lb bbq tank, the oven worked but never reached temp even after hours. After some research I’ve decided to replace our hose and regulator because both are pretty ancient, but that’s where I’m getting confused.

First off, there is a regulator built in to the propane stove, right where the gas hose goes in. If this is the case, do I even need a second regulator at the tank?

Second, if I do, what size of regulator do I need?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Nate R]

Hey there,

I’m installing a little propane stovetop/oven in a school bus conversion and running into a couple of issues. When previously installed and hooked up to a 20 lb bbq tank, the oven worked but never reached temp even after hours. After some research I’ve decided to replace our hose and regulator because both are pretty ancient, but that’s where I’m getting confused.

First off, there is a regulator built in to the propane stove, right where the gas hose goes in. If this is the case, do I even need a second regulator at the tank?

Second, if I do, what size of regulator do I need?

Thanks for your help!

Yes, the stove side regulator is separate, you still need one to drop the tank pressure from tens of PSI to about 1/2 PSI.

Size? Depends on what it's feeding. Only the stove? Probably less than 60K BTU capacity needed then.

 

[fbelec]

yes on the regulator. if you run a rubber line from the tank without a regulator the rubber hose will blow. run the regulator on the tank at 5 to 7 wc and the stove regulator should take it from there

 

[Highbeam]

yes on the regulator. if you run a rubber line from the tank without a regulator the rubber hose will blow. run the regulator on the tank at 5 to 7 wc and the stove regulator should take it from there

My weed burner uses a rubber hose. No regulator, no blown hose.

Propane is just about 120 psi. Up or down slightly depending on temperature. Not unlike compressed shop air. Even some bike tires run over 100 now.

 

[fbelec]

not having a double gauge only a single on my regulator on my torpedo heater it runs at 18 psi was told that propane has a 1200 psi. i use a 100 pound tank

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Talk to a propane shop. They can size the lines for your application.

Propane lines aren’t hard to run, but if you make a mistake bad things can happen.

 

[zrock]

Talk to a propane shop. They can size the lines for your application.

Propane lines aren’t hard to run, but if you make a mistake bad things can happen.

Agree take it to a professional and let them do it for you.. Money well spend at the end of the say when things don't blow up on you

 

[johneh]

I have no idea how petroleum gas installation is done in the US
but in Ontario Canada all Petroleum gas installations, repair and service must be done by
TSSA lic. petroleum mechanic. AkA an Hvac Technician. Just covers your ass
if something goes wrong.
TSSA = Technical Standards and Safety Authority

 

[EatenByLimestone]

We are still able to do our own installations to the best of my knowledge. As of a couple years ago when I last checked I could still buy all the materials at Home Depot.

Im not sure what changes in code between installations in a structure and one in a bus. The bus would certainly be more prone to wear where the line goes through the wall and is secured to the structure. An old bus going down the road is going to twist and rattle a lot. Every contact point could wear through a soft copper line.

As far as the OP’s original issue, the line size may be off, the tank may not have been able to evaporate enough gas off the liquid which may mean temperature, tank shape, demand, or all 3. And the stove might have had issues too.

Running the line could be running and double flairing the copper line, then switching to black pipe inside the bus. Lots of joints to put together and leak check.

Or they may have appropriate CSST that could do it all. The one time I had somebody run a CSST line in my house they over torqued a crush washer and created a leak. I discovered it by detecting a faint gas smell while air sealing on the coldest day of the year. I couldn’t find the leak as it wasn’t bubbling. The leak was small. The local utility barely found it and red tagged me. I had to run all new black pipe to get my heat back on. What a mess it was.

 

[contravert]

We are still able to do our own installations to the best of my knowledge. As of a couple years ago when I last checked I could still buy all the materials at Home Depot.

Im not sure what changes in code between installations in a structure and one in a bus. The bus would certainly be more prone to wear where the line goes through the wall and is secured to the structure. An old bus going down the road is going to twist and rattle a lot. Every contact point could wear through a soft copper line.

As far as the OP’s original issue, the line size may be off, the tank may not have been able to evaporate enough gas off the liquid which may mean temperature, tank shape, demand, or all 3. And the stove might have had issues too.

Running the line could be running and double flairing the copper line, then switching to black pipe inside the bus. Lots of joints to put together and leak check.

Or they may have appropriate CSST that could do it all. The one time I had somebody run a CSST line in my house they over torqued a crush washer and created a leak. I discovered it by detecting a faint gas smell while air sealing on the coldest day of the year. I couldn’t find the leak as it wasn’t bubbling. The leak was small. The local utility barely found it and red tagged me. I had to run all new black pipe to get my heat back on. What a mess it was.

Yes, the stove side regulator is separate, you still need one to drop the tank pressure from tens of PSI to about 1/2 PSI.

Size? Depends on what it's feeding. Only the stove? Probably less than 60K BTU capacity needed then.

I have the same question essentially. I have a Tappan gas range that has been professionally set up for LP use. I know the stove has a gas regulator in it. I have a flexible metal line with a regulator that connects a 40# tank to the regulator on the stove - so two regulators in series. However I am unable to get any gas to the burners. I have checked the shut off valve on the factory installed regulator and it is on. Is it possible that two regulators prevents gas flow? I don't have any hint of smell at the burners. Thanks and sorry if this is hijacking the thread. It seems to be what the forum wanted.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

First and most obvious question to get out of the way, is the propane tank full and have you checked that the valve on it is working as designed?

Is the flexible metal line, regulators, stove new? Could an insect have crawled in and made a nest that restricts the gas flow? I've had this happen on outdoor grils.

 

[Nate R]

I have the same question essentially. I have a Tappan gas range that has been professionally set up for LP use. I know the stove has a gas regulator in it. I have a flexible metal line with a regulator that connects a 40# tank to the regulator on the stove - so two regulators in series. However I am unable to get any gas to the burners. I have checked the shut off valve on the factory installed regulator and it is on. Is it possible that two regulators prevents gas flow? I don't have any hint of smell at the burners. Thanks and sorry if this is hijacking the thread. It seems to be what the forum wanted.

My answer would still be the same...the stove regulator is separate. Most stoves have a built in regulator....having another one in line is not a problem. (2 stage regulators exist that are 2 in 1, basically.) What pressure is the regulator on the tank built for? Have you checked pressure at the stove? You may need a gauge kit to do this properly.

 

[zrock]

We are still able to do our own installations to the best of my knowledge. As of a couple years ago when I last checked I could still buy all the materials at Home Depot.

Im not sure what changes in code between installations in a structure and one in a bus. The bus would certainly be more prone to wear where the line goes through the wall and is secured to the structure. An old bus going down the road is going to twist and rattle a lot. Every contact point could wear through a soft copper line.

As far as the OP’s original issue, the line size may be off, the tank may not have been able to evaporate enough gas off the liquid which may mean temperature, tank shape, demand, or all 3. And the stove might have had issues too.

Running the line could be running and double flairing the copper line, then switching to black pipe inside the bus. Lots of joints to put together and leak check.

Or they may have appropriate CSST that could do it all. The one time I had somebody run a CSST line in my house they over torqued a crush washer and created a leak. I discovered it by detecting a faint gas smell while air sealing on the coldest day of the year. I couldn’t find the leak as it wasn’t bubbling. The leak was small. The local utility barely found it and red tagged me. I had to run all new black pipe to get my heat back on. What a mess it was.

just because you can buy the supplies does not mean you can just install it and go.. Usually still has to be inspected.. Automotive side has to be inspected every few years, usually camper/motorhome side is the same but that never gets enforced by the gas station tenants as they do not want to look for the inspection tag on most of these things.

 

[coaly]

just because you can buy the supplies does not mean you can just install it and go.. Usually still has to be inspected.. Automotive side has to be inspected every few years, usually camper/motorhome side is the same but that never gets enforced by the gas station tenants as they do not want to look for the inspection tag on most of these things.

In the US you can buy and install your own propane gas system. You can purchase your own cylinder and use it at your own risk. Liability is on the owner. If you want a gas supply company to supply the propane, they will make sure it is up to code and do a leak down test. They then assume liability.

I have the same question essentially. I have a Tappan gas range that has been professionally set up for LP use. I know the stove has a gas regulator in it. I have a flexible metal line with a regulator that connects a 40# tank to the regulator on the stove - so two regulators in series. However I am unable to get any gas to the burners. I have checked the shut off valve on the factory installed regulator and it is on. Is it possible that two regulators prevents gas flow? I don't have any hint of smell at the burners. Thanks and sorry if this is hijacking the thread. It seems to be what the forum wanted.

Turn on gas at cylinder valve . Soap connector fitting at range connection. Loosen the flexible supply line at stove connection. You should have gas flow and bubbles at loose line end. Tighten and leak check connection with soap water solution. This is how you bleed the air out. The line will be full of air until propane vapor pushes the air out of the line. This is checking the supply. If you have flow, there is an obstruction in appliance regulator or appliance.

If you have no gas flow, you didn’t mention if the 40# cylinder is outside connected to a supply piping system, or if there is more to the system than a regulator on cylinder and only a flex connector to appliance. If this is a system with cylinder outside, the supply system should have a service shut off valve for each appliance. Follow line from range back to supply regulator checking for shut off valve. Flexible appliance connector cannot go through wall or partition.

The appliance regulator on the range is actually blocked open when adjusted for propane. It does not regulate the pressure. The supply regulator at cylinder or tank supplies the correct pressure which is about 1/2 PSI or 11 “ W.C. for LP. When the appliance regulator is set to Natural, the correct pressure is applied to the spring inside limiting gas pressure to half the LP pressure, or about 1/4 PSI.

 

[contravert]

First and most obvious question to get out of the way, is the propane tank full and have you checked that the valve on it is working as designed?

Is the flexible metal line, regulators, stove new? Could an insect have crawled in and made a nest that restricts the gas flow? I've had this happen on outdoor grils.

Yes, the tank is full and has been in use with other appliances. The line and regulator were fabricated by a professional installer. The stove appears to be in good shape but is second hand and sat for a few months before I got around to trying to install it so I guess it's possible that something got in there. I'll see if I can figure out a way to clear it. Thanks

 

[contravert]

In the US you can buy and install your own propane gas system. You can purchase your own cylinder and use it at your own risk. Liability is on the owner. If you want a gas supply company to supply the propane, they will make sure it is up to code and do a leak down test. They then assume liability.

Turn on gas at cylinder valve . Soap connector fitting at range connection. Loosen the flexible supply line at stove connection. You should have gas flow and bubbles at loose line end. Tighten and leak check connection with soap water solution. This is how you bleed the air out. The line will be full of air until propane vapor pushes the air out of the line. This is checking the supply. If you have flow, there is an obstruction in appliance regulator or appliance.

If you have no gas flow, you didn’t mention if the 40# cylinder is outside connected to a supply piping system, or if there is more to the system than a regulator on cylinder and only a flex connector to appliance. If this is a system with cylinder outside, the supply system should have a service shut off valve for each appliance. Follow line from range back to supply regulator checking for shut off valve. Flexible appliance connector cannot go through wall or partition.

The appliance regulator on the range is actually blocked open when adjusted for propane. It does not regulate the pressure. The supply regulator at cylinder or tank supplies the correct pressure which is about 1/2 PSI or 11 “ W.C. for LP. When the appliance regulator is set to Natural, the correct pressure is applied to the spring inside limiting gas pressure to half the LP pressure, or about 1/4 PSI.

 

[contravert]

In the US you can buy and install your own propane gas system. You can purchase your own cylinder and use it at your own risk. Liability is on the owner. If you want a gas supply company to supply the propane, they will make sure it is up to code and do a leak down test. They then assume liability.

Turn on gas at cylinder valve . Soap connector fitting at range connection. Loosen the flexible supply line at stove connection. You should have gas flow and bubbles at loose line end. Tighten and leak check connection with soap water solution. This is how you bleed the air out. The line will be full of air until propane vapor pushes the air out of the line. This is checking the supply. If you have flow, there is an obstruction in appliance regulator or appliance.

If you have no gas flow, you didn’t mention if the 40# cylinder is outside connected to a supply piping system, or if there is more to the system than a regulator on cylinder and only a flex connector to appliance. If this is a system with cylinder outside, the supply system should have a service shut off valve for each appliance. Follow line from range back to supply regulator checking for shut off valve. Flexible appliance connector cannot go through wall or partition.

The appliance regulator on the range is actually blocked open when adjusted for propane. It does not regulate the pressure. The supply regulator at cylinder or tank supplies the correct pressure which is about 1/2 PSI or 11 “ W.C. for LP. When the appliance regulator is set to Natural, the correct pressure is applied to the spring inside limiting gas pressure to half the LP pressure, or about 1/4 PSI.

Thanks for this info. The 40# tank is in the cabin, and directly connected through a bout 4 feet of flex metal line to the regulator on the stove. There is a sticker on the range that says "installer, be sure the pressure regulator shut off valve is in the on position when the installation is complete" I assume that is the little spring loaded toggle on the side of the regulator manifold. I believe I have it in the on (under tension) position but I have tried it both ways. The supply regulator at the tank is adjustable I believe - that is it has a red knob that turns to open and close it. It also has the following printed on it: Warning high pressure LP gas regulator. Do not use with 11" WC systems. Does that mean I have the wrong regulator and I'm putting too much pressure on the internal regulator? Wouldn't the result be too much gas coming through the burner or is there another shut off valve of some sort for over pressure situations?

 

[tlc1976]

As one poster mentioned wear points from an old bus going down the road.

Is this bus even mobile? When I read “off grid” in the title, I imagined an old bus being used as a cabin. There was a guy on my bus route who lived in an old school bus. The woodstove pipe was routed through one of the flasher holes.

 

[coaly]

Thanks for this info. The 40# tank is in the cabin, and directly connected through a bout 4 feet of flex metal line to the regulator on the stove. There is a sticker on the range that says "installer, be sure the pressure regulator shut off valve is in the on position when the installation is complete" I assume that is the little spring loaded toggle on the side of the regulator manifold. I believe I have it in the on (under tension) position but I have tried it both ways. The supply regulator at the tank is adjustable I believe - that is it has a red knob that turns to open and close it. It also has the following printed on it: Warning high pressure LP gas regulator. Do not use with 11" WC systems. Does that mean I have the wrong regulator and I'm putting too much pressure on the internal regulator? Wouldn't the result be too much gas coming through the burner or is there another shut off valve of some sort for over pressure situations?

Yes, you have the wrong regulator.

Remove the propane cylinder from the building.

The cylinder must be outside, not in an enclosed building of any kind. That’s why your post didn’t make sense.

A high pressure regulator will be red. There are some appliances made for outdoor use that use 10 PSI propane vapor. High pressure lines are only allowed outdoors from a tank or cylinder to the second stage regulator at building where ONLY low pressure propane enters building. This way the high pressure 10 PSI can supply appliances much farther away from supply. (A red regulator will be on tank or cylinder, and green low pressure regulator on building or at appliance such as a pool heater far from tank)

The regulator on range is not made for high pressure. Damage may result. You need a two stage regulator outdoors at the cylinder. Two stage regulation must be used on any appliance controlled by automatic means. (Oven thermostat) this is NOT a barbecue regulator, which is single stage for manual control burner only. The regulator must also be outside since the diaphragm is vented to the atmosphere. If diaphragm ruptures, tank pressure propane vapor would be released in the confined space.

I suggest professional installation of propane system and never take that 40# cylinder into an enclosed building. Refer to NFPA-58 for high pressure gas in any enclosed space.

NFPA-54 is for the low pressure system.

I never over-pressurized a system, so maybe the appliance regulator closed tightly sensing the pressure 20 times what it should be.

I had a customer that had a local hardware store install a log set that the pilot was huge and main burner would not light. When I got there the customer had two or three new log sets that they had tried, and they all did the same thing. I found they tied into the high-pressure line outside without a second stage regulator.

 

[contravert]

Thanks so much for this. I'll be taking the set up back to the propane shop today.

 

[zrock]

In the US you can buy and install your own propane gas system. You can purchase your own cylinder and use it at your own risk. Liability is on the owner. If you want a gas supply company to supply the propane, they will make sure it is up to code and do a leak down test. They then assume liability.

Turn on gas at cylinder valve . Soap connector fitting at range connection. Loosen the flexible supply line at stove connection. You should have gas flow and bubbles at loose line end. Tighten and leak check connection with soap water solution. This is how you bleed the air out. The line will be full of air until propane vapor pushes the air out of the line. This is checking the supply. If you have flow, there is an obstruction in appliance regulator or appliance.

If you have no gas flow, you didn’t mention if the 40# cylinder is outside connected to a supply piping system, or if there is more to the system than a regulator on cylinder and only a flex connector to appliance. If this is a system with cylinder outside, the supply system should have a service shut off valve for each appliance. Follow line from range back to supply regulator checking for shut off valve. Flexible appliance connector cannot go through wall or partition.

The appliance regulator on the range is actually blocked open when adjusted for propane. It does not regulate the pressure. The supply regulator at cylinder or tank supplies the correct pressure which is about 1/2 PSI or 11 “ W.C. for LP. When the appliance regulator is set to Natural, the correct pressure is applied to the spring inside limiting gas pressure to half the LP pressure, or about 1/4 PSI.

interesting but i almost bet your insurance company would say different. Here you will not get insurance unless they have a inspection certificate after u install it.. If you do not and something happens you will not be getting your insurance payout and lord forbid someone gets hurt because of your installation you will be screwed for life trying to pay that claim back.

 

[Highbeam]

interesting but i almost bet your insurance company would say different. Here you will not get insurance unless they have a inspection certificate after u install it.. If you do not and something happens you will not be getting your insurance payout and lord forbid someone gets hurt because of your installation you will be screwed for life trying to pay that claim back.

Of course, insurance is not required unless it is required by the actual owner of your home who might be a mortgage lender.

Second, a passed inspection is no guarantee of code compliance, safety, etc. but yes it would certainly help you in court.