Help on Dual Boiler setup Coal-Propane

[layoric]

Hi all, I've just received a Keystoker K2 boiler, that was professionally installed about a month ago. I've had some issues with it, mainly due to the installation. I have one pump per boiler, and 4 new zone valves on the propane boiler side. The coal boiler has DHW installed as well.

My main issues now are that I have a single pump on the propane boiler, along with new erie pop-top zone valves, by Schneider-Electric. Ever since the installation I've had a water hammer every time the thermostat shuts down. Sometimes this hammer noise/rattle is very slight, other times it wakes us up! The original installer kept being adamant it was air in the lines, yet I have emptied BUCKETS of water, and there is still the issue. I also just had a more reputable HVAC company come out and they said what I also learned by reading online - the hammer is from the very fast closing of the zone valves.

I can find no information on these valves online - is it possible to modify them to make them close slower, just as others have stated about Honeywell? What is the least expensive option to eliminate the water hammer issue, the HVAC company said possibly some sort of water hammer arrestor? Will that work with a boiler?

My other issue is over-heating. I have the K2 set for 160 low limit, 180 high. Many times after the boiler fires up to compensate for DHW or calls for heat, the temperature climbs to 230 - 240 degrees, sometimes a bit higher! The emergency thermostat (forget what it's called) connected to the boiler was set for 220, but never seemed to go off. I have since determined, by manually adjusting the thermostat, that it is off by about 25 degrees as compared to the digital thermostat on the boiler. Setting it to 205 will initiate the emergency heat dump at about 230 degrees. This second HVAC company technician also said that the circulator pump on the K2 side is installed in the wrong place! He stated it could account for overheating. Apparently the dual boiler piping is not set up for circulating from the K2 to the propane boiler. I have verified this by observing the propane boiler temperature gauge being around 120 degrees or less at times when there is no call for heat, while the K2 has a clear reading of 180 and above. I mentioned the propane boiler seemed to be trying to energize to the original installer, he said he didn't know why... The HVAC company stated the propane boiler is setup as a temperature maintainer right now, which is a waste since the K2 is up to temperature.

Would rerouting the circulator pump on the K2 side make this a parallel or series installation? Will doing this allow the propane boiler to energize and take over should the coal boiler go out?

The DHW does not have much in the way of quick recovery. We tend to use it to a point where there is hardly any hot water left and it is unable to recover fast enough. This occurs with or without a call for heat. We have a 50 gal. electric water heater, with bypass controls for it and it is currently switched off.

What are my options for easily increasing the DHW capacity/recovery?

With all these issues, I've been thinking of some sort of remote monitoring and/or automation.

Is there also some device that can be installed to remotely monitor the boiler temperature? How about something that will shut down power to the coal boiler should the fire go out, and allow the propane boiler to take over?

Thanks for any input!

Kirk

 

[stee6043]

With all of these issues I'd be thinking about talking to a lawyer. Is the "professional installer" no longer supporting you? Why have you needed to bring in the second HVAC guy?

The things you're asking above seem to be problems significant enough that your installer should be solving them at no charge to you. Deploying "band aid" fixes on a brand new system would not be my recommendation.

If this were my setup I'd tell the "professional installer" that he can take his system back and you want a refund if he can't make it work properly. I assume you've already paid him in-full? That will make it harder...hence perhaps a letter from a lawyer might be in order if he's refusing to support.

Bad deal either way. Best of luck!

 

[layoric]

With all of these issues I'd be thinking about talking to a lawyer. Is the "professional installer" no longer supporting you? Why have you needed to bring in the second HVAC guy?

The things you're asking above seem to be problems significant enough that your installer should be solving them at no charge to you. Deploying "band aid" fixes on a brand new system would not be my recommendation.

If this were my setup I'd tell the "professional installer" that he can take his system back and you want a refund if he can't make it work properly. I assume you've already paid him in-full? That will make it harder...hence perhaps a letter from a lawyer might be in order if he's refusing to support.

Bad deal either way. Best of luck!

No, it's just that he did things wrong and I was looking to inexpensively make it right. They wouldn't be bandade fixes, it's piping, so everything can be altered...

I just got a call from the 2nd party, $1,100 to rewire all zone valves and reroute a line to pipe water from coal boiler to propane boiler when it's not calling for heat. Yeah, I'm not paying that unless as you stated, I get a refund from installer. The installer did not sell me the boiler. I got it from Dennis Coal.

Just left a message with the installer dictating my issues. I'm still looking for rewiring and plumbing options from others here as there is no guarantee that the installer will make it right.

 

[leon]

Nothing short of your local small claims court is going to solve the issue for you;
please had over to www.NEPAdigital.com to get help with your K2 as
soon as possible and call Don Somers at Keystoker.

I was not happy with them(Dennis Coal) either for what its worth.

Are you using oiled coal or dry coal? Pea or rice?

The Keystoker K2's are simple machines and easy to set up but unless the propane unit is
only used as a back up and wired as such problems will ensue.

Draining water will not solve your water hammer issues.

Why was a second pump not installed to balance the water temperature between the boilers as it should have been????


The thing is that he should have installed an accumulator or installed air stops
at the end of the plumbing runs (long pieces of capped copper pipe with normal
air charges in the pipe or a disposable water accumulator with a gas charged bladder
to absorb the water hammer shock if this is the issue.

Stupid question where are the air scoops, air vents and bladder tanks?
are there any of the above items installed?

You need at least two air scoops and bladder tanks with automatic air vents and manual air vents at the highest elbows in the runs.

What is the inlet water pressure entering the dual system?
It should not be any greater than 12 PSI+-. Is there a backflow preventer?

Your installation worries me as it sounds as if the units cannot be run independent
of each other(as they should) and they do no have air scoops, bladder tanks or spirovents
on the air scoops.

What are your high and low limits set at?

How many pins and how far apart are they on the timer for the idle and operating times? Did he use the triple aquastat furnished for the keystoker and tie it into the propane burner controls?

Or did he use the aquastat on the propane boiler to operate the stoker?


How wide are the air doors set on the twin combustion blowers? They should be nearly wide open.

You need to download the Keystoker boiler piping and wiring diagrams and compare them to the snakes nest you paid for.

The other thing that jumps right up is the electric water heater.

When was the last time it was drained of sediment???

Don't forget that the water heater will shed heat from the water.

Am I correct in assuming that a tempering valve was not installed?

You need to turn the water heater back on and install a circulating pump with a thermostat for the domestic hot water if you are using a lot of hot water UNLESS you install a tempering valve off the domestic coil and bypass the water heater entirely.


The hot water coil in the Keystoker should be providing you with plenty of hot water
with a tempering valve and using the water tank for storage.

You need to lower the low limit and the high limit temperatures by twenty degrees to the summer settings as the boiler will take longer to reach the upper limit temps but even longer to reach the low limit temps.
.

Can you upload a diagram of the current plumbing?

 

[leon]

Adding to what I have already contributed:

(broken link removed)

This will help you, and Don Somers at keystoker can fax you a wiring and plumbing diagram for the K2 tying in with your propane boiler

The plumber/installer did not do his homework apparently nor did Dennis Coal I hope he used a lot of unions,teflon tape and pipe dope.

 

[layoric]

Nothing short of your local small claims court is going to solve the issue for you;
please had over to www.NEPAdigital.com to get help with your K2 as
soon as possible and call Don Somers at Keystoker.

I was not happy with them(Dennis Coal) either for what its worth.

Are you using oiled coal or dry coal? Pea or rice?

The Keystoker K2's are simple machines and easy to set up but unless the propane unit is
only used as a back up and wired as such problems will ensue.

Draining water will not solve your water hammer issues.

Why was a second pump not installed to balance the water temperature between the boilers as it should have been????


The thing is that he should have installed an accumulator or installed air stops
at the end of the plumbing runs (long pieces of capped copper pipe with normal
air charges in the pipe or a disposable water accumulator with a gas charged bladder
to absorb the water hammer shock if this is the issue.

Stupid question where are the air scoops, air vents and bladder tanks?
are there any of the above items installed?

You need at least two air scoops and bladder tanks with automatic air vents and manual air vents at the highest elbows in the runs.

What is the inlet water pressure entering the dual system?
It should not be any greater than 12 PSI+-. Is there a backflow preventer?

Your installation worries me as it sounds as if the units cannot be run independent
of each other(as they should) and they do no have air scoops, bladder tanks or spirovents
on the air scoops.

What are your high and low limits set at?

How many pins and how far apart are they on the timer for the idle and operating times? Did he use the triple aquastat furnished for the keystoker and tie it into the propane burner controls?

Or did he use the aquastat on the propane boiler to operate the stoker?


How wide are the air doors set on the twin combustion blowers? They should be nearly wide open.

You need to download the Keystoker boiler piping and wiring diagrams and compare them to the snakes nest you paid for.

The other thing that jumps right up is the electric water heater.

When was the last time it was drained of sediment???

Don't forget that the water heater will shed heat from the water.

Am I correct in assuming that a tempering valve was not installed?

You need to turn the water heater back on and install a circulating pump with a thermostat for the domestic hot water if you are using a lot of hot water UNLESS you install a tempering valve off the domestic coil and bypass the water heater entirely.


The hot water coil in the Keystoker should be providing you with plenty of hot water
with a tempering valve and using the water tank for storage.

You need to lower the low limit and the high limit temperatures by twenty degrees to the summer settings as the boiler will take longer to reach the upper limit temps but even longer to reach the low limit temps.
.

Can you upload a diagram of the current plumbing?

The items in green next to the zone valves are the proposed changes. Right now the zone valves dead head to the right. He wants to put in a check valve and tie between the end of the zone valves and into the propane boiler intake (I believe that's the intake). Per Don at Keystoker, I've also relayed the info to him to add a 4006A to the propane boiler, probably in the new tie in location as illustrated, and wire it to T-T on triple aqua-stat (I assume that's the digital controller for the coal boiler?). The circulating pumps should also be wired to C1, C2 on triple aqua-stat.

I have the water heater off, no issues with that - using just the boiler for DHW.
I don't think there's any back flow preventer.
I never said there wasn't a 2nd pump. I know it's not currently plumbed to flow water to the propane boiler without a zone valve being open, however.
My diagram illustrates a tempering valve is installed. I calibrated it to 127 degrees.
Propane boiler has ZV's installed on it, don't know how it's wired, can try to do a diagram of that next.
Oiled rice coal.
Don't know what you mean by air doors. I have a -2 for draft set from his manometer.
I have 3 pins on one 30 min. mark, 4 on another 30 min. mark. All next to one-another.

Thanks for any assistance - hopefully those answer most questions.

 

[maple1]

Right now the zone valves dead head to the right.

What does that mean?

Having a hard time figuring your diagram - where do the zones return to?

No experience with your zone valves - but with some, it is possible to install them backwards. They should close against the flow of water. If installed the other way, they will close with a bang with the water flow slamming them shut.

 

[layoric]

Right now the zone valves dead head to the right.

What does that mean?

Having a hard time figuring your diagram - where do the zones return to?

No experience with your zone valves - but with some, it is possible to install them backwards. They should close against the flow of water. If installed the other way, they will close with a bang with the water flow slamming them shut.

Dead head is a common hvac term meaning the pipe ends or there is no flow at that point. The zone valves all return to the dotted lines at the top. This should also be self evident as both locations have dotted lines. Blue lines are cold water 'input' lines, red is hot water out. These are standard notations and symbols, so I didn't feel the need for a legend. Was keeping the diagram as clean as possible. Also, since you are not familiar with piping diagrams, everywhere a pipe has a small 'u' it means it does not connect to the pipe - since this is a 2d diagram, this is how that is illustrated.

I also indicated the flow of water swhich should also make it self evident of which ball valves are closed.

The diagram was emailed to Keystoker as well for input on how it is now along with proposed changes.

 

[maple1]

I am familiar with piping diagrams. Not a pro, but I digested a lot of them before doing my system over.

This one seems flawed - sometimes the best way to figure out how & why is to start with a simple question.

Deadhead also means a pump is pumping against a closed circuit - which should not happen. Rather, the pump should stop pumping - or, the flow diverts somewhere else. So, perhaps it is 'diverts', rather than 'deadheads'. That, combined with three dotted zone return lines coming in one one side of an air scoop/expansion, and one on the other, may lead to a question of clarification.

I am not seeing how the K2 supply can get to your propane unit if the zones are closed. Then, if the zones are open, it will only get cool zone return water. But, how does the water get pulled through the zones, and what prevents it from short circuiting around the propane boiler loop? Or the K2 loop when K2 is active? What exactly are the green change items?

The drawing does not show scale, so it is hard to tell - but it looks like your expansion tanks might be on the wrong side of your pumps too.

 

[leon]

View attachment 142180
The items in green next to the zone valves are the proposed changes. Right now the zone valves dead head to the right. He wants to put in a check valve and tie between the end of the zone valves and into the propane boiler intake (I believe that's the intake). Per Don at Keystoker, I've also relayed the info to him to add a 4006A to the propane boiler, probably in the new tie in location as illustrated, and wire it to T-T on triple aqua-stat (I assume that's the digital controller for the coal boiler?). The circulating pumps should also be wired to C1, C2 on triple aqua-stat.

I have the water heater off, no issues with that - using just the boiler for DHW.
I don't think there's any back flow preventer.
I never said there wasn't a 2nd pump. I know it's not currently plumbed to flow water to the propane boiler without a zone valve being open, however.
My diagram illustrates a tempering valve is installed. I calibrated it to 127 degrees.
Propane boiler has ZV's installed on it, don't know how it's wired, can try to do a diagram of that next.
Oiled rice coal.
Don't know what you mean by air doors. I have a -2 for draft set from his manometer.
I have 3 pins on one 30 min. mark, 4 on another 30 min. mark. All next to one-another.

Thanks for any assistance - hopefully those answer most questions.

=======================================================================================================


The diagram is a bit strange; the symbol you have for a pump is or was ASME designation for
a forced draft air blower.


Pumps are normally indicated with a large circle containing
a Capital P in its center.

Air doors are the air shutters-they are the sliding metal discs that cover the air inlets for both blowers.

If you pins are all next to each other as you describe(meaning (1-2-3)-(4-5-6-7) thats not good!

Please replace the three pins at every twenty minute position and run it like that as suggested by Keystoker in the manual.

Per the National Plumbing Code there has to be a backflow preventer in front of the pressure regulator. The residential backflow preventer is smaller than the pressure regulator.

If he did not install a backflow preventer thats a guaranteed NO NO and violation of the national plumbing code.


Your plumbing would be simplified if you eliminated the the zone valves period and you could keep the single thermostat to maintain the homes temperature at 62-65 degrees.

My old house is one continuous loop with a common return pipe.

Just to be safe check the valves to see if they have a flow direction arrow please.

 

[ewdudley]

This second HVAC company technician also said that the circulator pump on the K2 side is installed in the wrong place!

Keystoker's manual show a pump right where you have your K2 water fan, what is your second HVAC guy's reasoning?

Is the bypass circuit valve open, partially closed, or completely closed? How did you decide what the bypass circuit valve setting should be?

 

[layoric]

=======================================================================================================


The diagram is a bit strange; the symbol you have for a pump is or was ASME designation for
a forced draft air blower.


Pumps are normally indicated with a large circle containing
a Capital P in its center.

Air doors are the air shutters-they are the sliding metal discs that cover the air inlets for both blowers.

If you pins are all next to each other as you describe(meaning (1-2-3)-(4-5-6-7) thats not good!

please replace the three pins at every twenty minute position and run it like that as sugested by Keystoker in the manual.

Per the National Plumbing Code there has to be a backflow preventer in front of the pressure regulator. The residential backflow preventer is smaller than the pressure regulator.

If he did not install a backflow preventer thats a guaranteed NO NO and violation of the national plumbing code.


Your plumbing would be simplified if you eliminated the the zone valves period and you could keep the single thermostat to maintain the homes temperature at 62-65 degrees.

My old house is one continuous loop with a common return pipe.

Just to be safe check the valves to see if they have a flow direction arrow please.

Flows are correct direction as indicated by arrows. Pump is indicated as such due to that's what says PUMP in the HVAC symbol library used. All pins are together per Don at Keystoker. Remember, this is a new boiler, manuals change --
I don't know what a backflow preventer looks like, but unless it's integrated into my original boiler setup, which would be at the intake for water, as it goes into where the expansion/bladder tank is, I don't think I ever had one there. I assume that's the same thing as a check valve, as it allows only one way for water to go.

No, don't want to elimate the zone valves, whole reason is to have separate temps in separate areas, if I wanted that, I'd go back to the coal stove....

This is an email from this morning from Keystoker:
It looks to me as though the both supply and return lines are going into the same line and not through the boiler. One should go in to each line supply and return. The 4006A needs to put in the boiler or the supply line right at the boiler. The 4006A needs to be wired into the triple aquastat on the Keystoker TT connections. The zone valves need to wired back to the way they had been. The circulator on the propane boiler needs to be wired into the triple aquastat on the propane like it was in the

His email just ended like that, don't know what he was doing - but I assume he was going to finish saying, in the past, or something like that....

The FU&*TARD installer was blaming my original propane boiler for the 'weird setup'. Yeah.... Don't think so! He made stupid mistakes, plain and simple.

 

[layoric]

Right now the zone valves dead head to the right.

What does that mean?

Having a hard time figuring your diagram - where do the zones return to?

No experience with your zone valves - but with some, it is possible to install them backwards. They should close against the flow of water. If installed the other way, they will close with a bang with the water flow slamming them shut.

Zone valves go to the dotted lines up top... same lines, same line type. Valves are in correct direction. New diagram coming.

 

[layoric]

OK, here's another diagram, with some proposed changes by Keystoker. Those of you who responded, YES, as I stated there is no chance of having a return to the propane boiler without a zone valve being open. This new diagram should make it easier to see returns and zone valve direction. There is a proposed pipe change / addition in bolded line, labeled as well. Don said this would also eliminate the water hammer? Also is the proposed check valve in the correct location?

 

[leon]

The KAA-2 boiler has been around for a long time.

The backflow preventer would have the words
backflow preventer on the tag attached to the valve.

Thier e-mail system has had some issues with drafts being sent
unfinished by a simple bumping of the enter key.

This happens with chain e-mails too.

The only route for you now is small claims court to sue
for damages with a notarised statement from Don Somers
and the second plumber PLUS ample photographs of the
current system to show the small claims court judge.

I would want to see his plumbers license as well.


He wont refund you your money, I can garantee that becuase
no plumber has inventory to carry over for stocking materials
these days and they buy the pipe and valves from the local
supply house as the jobs come up as it costs too much money
to maintain a minimum inventory.

You need to look at the manual again-on page 12 as you either have reduce the coal feed
by one or two turns or remove a pin and wait several hours before making any changes.

The number of pins desired starting with three pins have to be separated every twenty minutes
on the timer and then go from there by first reducing the coal feed and waiting several hours
before making any changes.


Leaving seven pins in a row is something that is very strange and does not sound right at all.

Have three pins at zero, three at 20, and three at forty minutes which is where everyone starts
and then go from ther by backing off the coal feed first or taking out pins later.


Your balancing pipe will not balance the temperature unless it is directly plumbed from one boiler to the other with a pump loop between the two boilers to balance the temperatures between them.

I have to leave for chores now.

 

[layoric]

The KAA-2 boiler has been around for a long time.

The backflow preventer would have the words
backflow preventer on the tag attached to the valve.

Thier e-mail system has had some issues with drafts being sent
unfinished by a simple bumping of the enter key.

This happens with chain e-mails too.

The only route for you now is small claims court to sue
for damages with a notarised statement from Don Somers
and the second plumber PLUS ample photographs of the
current system to show the small claims court judge.

I would want to see his plumbers license as well.


He wont refund you your money, I can garantee that becuase
no plumber has inventory to carry over for stocking materials
these days and they buy the pipe and valves from the local
supply house as the jobs come up as it costs too much money
to maintain a minimum inventory.

You need to look at the manual again-on page 12 as you either have reduce the coal feed
by one or two turns or remove a pin and wait several hours before making any changes.

The number of pins desired starting with three pins have to be separated every twenty minutes
on the timer and then go from there by first reducing the coal feed and waiting several hours
before making any changes.


Leaving seven pins in a row is something that is very strange and does not sound right at all.

Have three pins at zero, three at 20, and three at forty minutes which is where everyone starts
and then go from ther by backing off the coal feed first or taking out pins later.


Your balancing pipe will not balance the temperature unless it is directly plumbed from one boiler to the other with a pump loop between the two boilers to balance the temperatures between them.

I have to leave for chores now.

Yes, the k2 has been, but they are constantly updating parts, for instance, mine has a digital display, a while back it did not. Why would I sue, he's trying to fix it?
The pins aren't an issue right now...


Does anyone else have any input on the check valve location and the new proposed pipe location? Will that pipe in that location seem to feed hot water from coal boiler to propane boiler without zone valves calling for heat?

 

[ewdudley]

Does anyone else have any input on the check valve location and the new proposed pipe location? Will that pipe in that location seem to feed hot water from coal boiler to propane boiler without zone valves calling for heat?

As water leaves the coal boiler it can go two directions.

If no zone valve is open then pump P1 (coal boiler pump) flow will go through the propane boiler and back to the coal boiler.

If one or more zone valves are open then some of pump P1 flow will go through to one or more loads and some flow will continue to flow through the propane boiler. How much either direction depends on the relative resistance for each parallel path.

 

[layoric]

As water leaves the coal boiler it can go two directions.

If no zone valve is open then pump P1 (coal boiler pump) flow will go through the propane boiler and back to the coal boiler.

If one or more zone valves are open then some of pump P1 flow will go through to one or more loads and some flow will continue to flow through the propane boiler. How much either direction depends on the relative resistance for each parallel path.

So do you mean my new pipe will work then?

 

[ewdudley]

So do you mean my new pipe will work then?

Probably not very well.

Assuming the pipes to an from the propane boiler are relatively short and relatively large in diameter compared to the load piping, then most of the P1 pump flow will go through the propane boiler and relatively little will go through the zones.

Maybe all you need is a balancing valve to limit the flow to the propane boiler. Also there is such a thing as a constant pressure valve that is used in these situations, http://www.pexuniverse.com/taco-3196-pressure-bypass-valve, although they're largely obsolete now that affordable constant deltaP pumps are available (Wilo Stratos, B&G Vario, Grundfoss Alpha).

(Why is it a goal to circulate through the idle propane boiler?)

 

[layoric]

Well, that's what keystoker suggested. No mention of another pump required. I'm going to include a bunch of photos of the current setup as well. That's a link to the group, here's a couple for preview:

Photo Oct 23, 4 33 43 PM

Photo Oct 23, 4 33 29 PM

Photo Oct 23, 4 32 45 PM

Photo Oct 23, 4 32 37 PM

 

[maple1]

Is the principle here to heat the propane boiler with the K2 and the propane boiler heat the house? (i.e. coal keeps propane hot so it doesn't fire up, but if you run out of coal the propane will fire up due to no hot supply from the coal),

or,

is the principle that either one or the other will/can heat the house on its own depending on say thermostat settings?

There is a lot of confusion in that diagram and it seems overcomplicated, to me at least. I could edit it up with some changes I see if I knew the principle (control scenario) that it was working under. Is there just one thermostat in the house that calls for heat? Do the zone valves have end switches that then start just the propane pump? The way I am seeing that, there will be very little if any flow through the zones from the coal pump. Are there check valves in the circulators?

 

[leon]

He still needs an open pipe loop for a temperature balancing line with a pump like I have.

 

[layoric]

Is the principle here to heat the propane boiler with the K2 and the propane boiler heat the house? (i.e. coal keeps propane hot so it doesn't fire up, but if you run out of coal the propane will fire up due to no hot supply from the coal),

or,

is the principle that either one or the other will/can heat the house on its own depending on say thermostat settings?

There is a lot of confusion in that diagram and it seems overcomplicated, to me at least. I could edit it up with some changes I see if I knew the principle (control scenario) that it was working under. Is there just one thermostat in the house that calls for heat? Do the zone valves have end switches that then start just the propane pump? The way I am seeing that, there will be very little if any flow through the zones from the coal pump. Are there check valves in the circulators?

Yes, heat from coal boiler should flow to propane boiler. If coal fire goes out, propane boiler should kick in. Installer was SUPPOSED TO set it up so that with the turning of three valves I could run propane boiler by itself without it back feeding through coal boiler.

The diagram is just what I have now, complicated or not, that's what it is - with the proposed changes as noted on it, and stated a few times. I didn't design the thing, just want the damn thing to work right, and to get an answer from someone as to what I must do to it to make it work right - assuming the installer screws it up again and I end up having to run a few pipes and rewire myself.
I don't think the pumps have check valves.

There are 4 zones, 4 zone valves, four thermostats.

I want the coal boiler to feed the propane boiler, and the propane boiler only fire when it no longer gets hot water from the coal boiler, in essence this would also mean the propane boiler can run on its own. I would also like the pumps to turn off and only run when needed - ie, if propane boiler needs to get more hot water to avoid firing, it will call for the pump on coal boiler to flow. When a zone valve closes, the pump on the propane boiler should also turn off. This is what I was told by Keystoker as well. I'd like to know what line should go where for my current setup without changing everything to make it fit in someone else's ideal setup. Keystoker said I should just have to do ( I believe that's what he meant) what is shown in the last diagram, aside from some rewiring.

 

[layoric]

He still needs an open pipe loop for a temperature balancing line with a pump like I have.

Referencing the diagram, please note what needs to be done.

 

[layoric]

If something is just retarded on this setup, and I can just remove it/close it off, and reroute a line, then also please share! With many people stating it's overly complicated, then it must be! Please, if you can, reference the diagram, as it is what I have now.